Adventure Gamers - Forums

I think Doom makes a lot of salient points on a lot of topics around him.  If you don’t take him seriously, you’re being petty.  He’s a fairly active poster who definitely takes time to posts things that contribute to a conversation, even if you don’t agree with him.

He’s just a little agitated now; I can understand that, and I think we all can.  We’ve all been there.  Doom, you’re a good dude, and I enjoy your posts.

Bt

One of the things I find frustrating in online discussion is when people keep changing the subject and making responses that are irrelevant to why we’re talking about a certain subject in the first place. So let’s take a step back.

The only reason we’re talking about Ren & Stimpy and other cartoons/kids’ shows is that you said (following on from an earlier discussion):

Doom - 26 January 2014 08:53 PM

like the game was made with kids in mind.

Doom - 28 January 2014 12:31 AM

Kids shows are kids shows; you watch one on your coffee break and immediately forget about it.

Now with all the examples that have been given, and all the examples you yourself have mentioned of things “made with kids in mind” that are still rewarding to return to as an adult, that statement has pretty much been torn apart.

Are there some shows/games/stories made for kids that don’t really have anything to offer grown-ups? Of course. But it’s simply ignorant to talk as if being made with kids in mind makes it automatically uninteresting to adults, particularly when the same thing could be said of almost every previous Schafer game.

Doom - 29 January 2014 06:54 PM

I read uncensored fairy tales from mid-centuries and I grew up on Roman/Greek mythology. Some of the stories are indeed not suitable for kids today. But sacrificing maidens to sea gods never stroke me as something shocking - and I remember those tales from my earliest years.

Sigh. The question is not about whether it is shocking, you know, but whether (a) these stories were actually for children, and (b) whether such motifs are something that’s meaningful to adults. (You seem to have got this weird idea in your head that if some concept is present in children’s stories, that makes it automatically childish.)

A moment’s thought should make it clear that the stories of Perseus+Andromeda and Cetus, Theseus and the Minotaur, St. George and the dragon, and many others were not originally told for kids, and that they did (and probably still do) resonate with adult audiences.

Besides, I think part of why you might not have perceived it as shocking is that first of all, it was “only a story”, and secondly you know that the maiden is going to get rescued. But if you consider that the Carthaginians did in fact sacrifice their own children to the gods, you might feel some of the true horror of the thing.

Doom - 29 January 2014 06:54 PM

I’m not a fan of personal dramas in media, because authors tend to go way too serious with them. Shay’s story did start as on a funny note as a satire on mother-child relationship. But it quickly turned into usual conspiracy, totalitarians vs rebels. That’s why I say themes are underdeveloped IN THE FIRST PART (for sensitive people)).

“usual conspiracy, totalitarians vs rebels”? That seems to assume that Marek is telling the truth, which I find very hard to believe in the context of what’s revealed in the ending. Plus, did you really miss that that whole thing is a continuation of the same theme, representing teenage rebellion?

I mean, it’s true that we don’t know how everything is going to play out yet, but I think there are enough hints and indications (and some things that have been explicitly established) to say with confidence that it’s not just a simple kids’ story with no deeper meaning or symbolism.

Gabe - 30 January 2014 08:40 AM

Another excellent ag for 12 years old,well no disappoinment there,he’s a granpappy now ..
But now even harder to believe how Schaff pull off mature ags like GF or FT,looks like older he gets softer he plays.After some 20 years I can still play full GF&FT;(prefer on android now btw)without getting bored but games like Psychonauts and Broken Age one time is more than enough.

That’s funny. I played Psychonauts for the first time when I was over 30 years old and I loved it. I’ve probably played it about 10 times since and still love it!

Doom - 29 January 2014 06:57 PM

Jim Purcell - 29 January 2014 06:29 PM

Then don’t be surprised when no one take anything you say seriously.

I stopped being surprised as soon as personal attacks started (and that was somewhere in the first Broken Age thread)

Yeah Doom with you too, infact i am on the same page when it coms to kids
flavor. Infact i love cartoons but BA is more in Powerpuff girls or
Dexter lab category to take it seriously.

Doom - 29 January 2014 06:54 PM

I’m not a fan of personal dramas in media, because authors tend to go way too serious with them. Shay’s story did start as on a funny note as a satire on mother-child relationship. But it quickly turned into usual conspiracy, totalitarians vs rebels. That’s why I say themes are underdeveloped IN THE FIRST PART (for sensitive people)).

Errrr…no it didn’t. Totalitarians vs rebels?!? Think you played a different Broken Age to me. Where did you get your version? Now I understand why you found it infantile if that’s your conclusion of what it’s about.

Iznogood - 30 January 2014 04:17 AM

Unless specifically stated as otherwise, I always assume everything in this is and every other forum is “IMO” of the poster.

You’re missing the point. There’s a big difference between “I find something…” (the impact it has on you) and “it is…” - which is simply a statement of fact. It makes no difference if you put an “IMO” on the end of the 2nd statement or not. And in the case of Doom’s “There’s nothing to back up your thoughts, because the game world and game story are too infantile at this stage” it’s clearly a ludicrous statement as a lot of people do not find Broken Age “infantile” at all. All it does is insult those of us who don’t find it childish.

I’d say therefore that Doom’s statement above, is,in actual fact, simply an example of bad writing. Which poses the question as to whether hs really a person who should be critiquing bad writing in games…

One other funny thing with this whole “infantile” discussion is that there’s no doubt in my mind that the adventure Tim Schafer’s made which would most appeal to my 6-year-old son is Full Throttle! My memory (admittedly it is a few years ago) also tells me that the story was pretty straightforward too - very much “good guys Vs bad guys”. My son’t also already played through (with a bit of help) Secret of Monkey Island. Yet they’re supposedly not childish while Broken Age is? Sorry but I just don’t get it. I think ultimately such judgements have to do with the art style (which personally I like ) than the writing or story. Would be interested in hearing thoughts from others…

CoyoteAG - 30 January 2014 09:53 AM

That’s funny. I played Psychonauts for the first time when I was over 30 years old and I loved it. I’ve probably played it about 10 times since and still love it!

Yeah, I’ve never felt any urge to go back to Full Throttle, but I’ve replayed Psychonauts several times.

To maybe help get this thread back on topic, I guess I haven’t really given my own thoughts on Broken Age after finishing it (took about 5 hours according to Steam, though that includes leaving the game running while making lunch, and having to replay one 10-minute section after a crash). Nothing really groundbreaking, most of this has already been said:

Visually and in terms of voice and music I think it’s great. I also really liked the setting and characters, particularly in Vella’s half of the game (which has a lot more variety than Shay’s); to me they very much had that whimsical Schafer feel, and the game is full of funny and clever visual ideas (like how the maidens at Sugar Bunting are all dressed up as cakes).

As a story, it’s interesting – not so much for what happens to Shay and Vella as for the mystery that gradually becomes clear throughout the game. Every additional piece of information just makes it more intriguing. Part 2 will really make or break this part of the experience.

However, the way the story is integrated into the interactive parts doesn’t feel entirely satisfying to me. I could never really get a bead on Vella, for example. She is reluctant to join the Maidens’ Feast, but goes through with it anyway, but at some point changes her mind and… runs away? but still wants to fight Mog Chothra in some unspecified way, but mostly she’s just kind of walking around doing whatever tasks present themselves. There’s not really a link between her long-term objective and her immediate activity.

Yeah, the puzzles are pretty easy. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, but for myself (and apparently a fair bit of the audience) I would have got more enjoyment out of it if there had been more challenge to it. It wouldn’t have to be tons more difficult; just a couple of puzzles where the solution could have been made a bit less obvious(ly hinted) or made to require another step or two, and two or three additional, meatier puzzles in each half would have made the game feel much less like a stroll. (Particularly in Vella’s part, where her quest doesn’t quite achieve the heroic level it should since she seems to accomplish it in a not-very-taxing afternoon.) I suspect in terms of puzzle balancing, Double Fine undershot a little the level they were aiming for, though I’m not sure whether that’s from Schafer being rusty, from some idea of what modern gamers like, or from overreacting to problems in the playtesting. They’ve been pretty clear that the next part will be harder, so maybe that will hit more of a sweet spot for me.

All that said, I think even if the puzzles are easy, many of them are good easy puzzles (a few, admittedly, are pretty much use-hammer-on-nail; the puzzle is presumably supposed to be finding the hammer, but to an experienced adventure gamer it’s pretty hard to miss most inventory items). The Space Weaver, for instance, is a nice, classic AG-type puzzle.

I think the game would really come alive if the interaction density was a bit higher. More hotspots, more things to do (the tablet-friendly single-click UI feels fairly constrictive in not even letting you look at things), more conversation with NPCs.

It’s an enjoyable game to play, but I wouldn’t call it a capital-g Great game. Except for being unusually pretty, it feels like a pretty standard well-made, well-written modern adventure. I’m happy to have played it and look forward to Part 2.

After a brisk nap - 30 January 2014 06:20 PM

CoyoteAG - 30 January 2014 09:53 AM

However, the way the story is integrated into the interactive parts doesn’t feel entirely satisfying to me. I could never really get a bead on Vella, for example. She is reluctant to join the Maidens’ Feast, but goes through with it anyway, but at some point changes her mind and… runs away? but still wants to fight Mog Chothra in some unspecified way, but mostly she’s just kind of walking around doing whatever tasks present themselves. There’s not really a link between her long-term objective and her immediate activity.

I didn’t have a a problem with that part. I understand Vella took part in the Feast because it was the right thing to do in society’s view and its hard to go against that without some serious support. After she was about to get eaten she had enough and did the only thing she could do, which was run away. But beating the Mog Chotra was always on her mind and everything she did, was leading her towards that. I mean on the cloud thingy she finds out where Mog Chothra will go next and basically from there on, everything leads to you fighting it.

Rest of the stuff i totally agree with. I think if they make puzzles a bit harder and add more areas in Act 2 it will be a fantastic game.

     

I see that that’s how it was intended to play, but personally I think a few crucial steps of character development are missing.

[spoiler]She goes along to the Maidens’ Feast, but immediately starts messing around, trying to trade for random crap (before MC even appears, IIRC). Has she already decided she’s not having this, or what is she trying to do at this point?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Then when Mog Chothra appears, her escape attempt doesn’t seem to be played as a fear response, but more like the standard adventure game protagonist messing-things-up-because-I-can attitude. She even seems pretty cocky about it as she flies away. All that stuff about if she doesn’t get eaten it will be a disgrace to her family and Mog Chothra will destroy her village, just forgotten?[/spoiler]

And then in her vaguely conceived quest to take down Mog Chothra… what is the idea there? Just hope to run across a buried spaceship with a laser cannon? It seems pointless to track the monster since she has, until the very end of the game, absolutely no way to attack it.

It feels to me like the game is relying a little too much on genre convention, on players just assuming “of course she has to escape, of course she has to look for a way to kill the monster” rather than actually establishing the concrete reasons in the story itself. I find it frustrating because I think this could easily have been addressed just in a short conversation with (e.g.) Granpa Beastender at the beginning. Just have her ask about the possibility of attacking Mog, and have him say something about how you’d have to go looking for a weapon, somewhere. That would give her motivation to explore the world, and the other pieces would fall into place much better (with just minor dialog tweaks here and there).

Karlok - 31 January 2014 06:46 AM

After a brisk nap - 30 January 2014 08:34 PM

[spoiler]She goes along to the Maidens’ Feast, but immediately starts messing around, trying to trade for random crap (before MC even appears, IIRC). Has she already decided she’s not having this, or what is she trying to do at this point?[/spoiler]

It’s not like Vella has not been talking a lot about killing the monster. She tries to get the other girls to help her fight the monster before it arrives. In fact, you have to talk to all the girls to trigger Mog Chothra. Since you seem to think this dressing up feast is a metaphor for “sexual awakening”, the only metaphorically correct conclusion would be that Vella is resisting her own sexual awakening. Now THAT makes a lot of sense.

No, the logic of that reading would be that she’s rejecting the societal expectations foist upon her and refusing to conform to the way her village expect women to be.