Adventure Gamers - Forums

DaveyB - 04 February 2014 10:49 AM

Help me out where I said that.

Implied.

I guess you have evidence for that? I didn’t see any coercion, purely the society’s norms and expectations. All other contestents seemed willing & held the same beliefs as the society in general. Vella and her grandfather were the obvious two exceptions. I don’t remember Vella being threatened with anything when she fought back, purely the statement (from the old woman I think) of what the consequences for the people of sugar bunting would be.

You may be right. It felt to me like she had no say in the matter whatsoever. No evidence. It was suggested or maybe even implied.

Apart from the fact that Meriloft is only one section of the game (maybe 15% in total), and is for me quite a bit short of totalitarianism, for it to be totalitarians Vs rebels there needs to be some…you know…rebels? More evidence that the first part is a “usual conspiracy, totalitarians Vs rebels” please?

I’m not going to defend someone else’s statements. I don’t know about conspiracy (yet), but everybody certainly sees rebelliousness against centralized control, both in Vella’s part and in Shay’s. Many people have already decided this centralized control is mom/dad/society. They may be right.

Apart from the fact that I see no relevance in your statement whatsoever

Not really relevant to your post, no. Expressing my surprise at out-of-the-blue Meriloft, and since nobody else has mentioned it I must be the only one who doesn’t see any connection to Vella’s life/story. It could be argued that Schafer has done this before, in DoTT for instance.  It still doesn’t sit well with me. If this story is about growing up etcetera (and Schafer did say it was), we should see a theme, not disjointed worlds.

(unless you believe the whole story is an allegory. I certainly never suggested that),

I get the impression that many posters in all threads about Broken Age switch levels all the time. From symbolism and metaphors to things literally happening in the game world, and back.

I think you need to read up on where cults generally recruit from. Studies indicate the profile is typically from young people who lack roots in society, don’t quite fit in etc. Seems to fit quite well to Vella actually.

This is what I mean by switching levels. It does not fit well to Vella at all. She’s not a convert, she’s not forced by mom and dad (like that egg-dusting character whose name I have forgotten), all she wants is to leave.

DaveyB - 04 February 2014 02:12 AM

But at the very least, wasn’t it obvious from the start that everything Marek said was questionable?

It was - he tried to hide the details of the “saving mission” and ended lying about it. Yet his role remains completely unclear, which prevents from further speculations. Thus this is not my interpretation, but simply a description of events shown to us, without my personal thoughts Computer controls the life of Shay; shady man-wolf asks his help to fight against computer That’s basically it. Without knowing what roles Marek and the ship play in the story, it’s hard to make any theories, especially about symbolism. Although I do agree about growing up and coming of age moments.

After a brisk nap - 04 February 2014 08:39 AM

So if I understand your contention correctly, you don’t think there’s anything in Broken Age that won’t register for children? Nothing that’s subtle or below the surface so that they’ll realize as they grow up that there’s more to it than they initially understood?

It really depends on how the story goes further on. But I don’t really see anything “adult” at this point…

I’m not sure where you’re going with this, or why you keep going on about whether it’s “shocking”. (I also don’t think Bible stories are particularly “for all ages”: it’s more that people didn’t use to give so much of a damn about targeting stories for kids. Certainly lots of kids find Bible study incredibly dull most of the time.)

Kids find most books and studies incredibly dull That doesn’t mean they understand only stupid slapstick cartoons. Personally I liked all kind of myths and legends as a kid. But sure, it doesn’t have much to do with the game anyway.

This sounds like a matter of personal taste. I feel like we’ve learned a lot: what Mog Chothra is, the context of Shay living alone on that ship, how the two worlds fit together, about the historical background (through Alex) and about Operation Dandelion, some hints about what happens to the maidens, etc. The fact that all the answers only raise more questions and that we can’t quite figure out how it all fits together is exactly the way I like it halfway through the story. I mean, at the halfway point of Resonance

I haven’t played through Resonance, so I’m spoiled But seriously, the only thing we are shown is how the two worlds are connected together. Not fit, really, because we are unaware of the purpose of those offerings, nor we have much info on the ship, Marek or Alex, almost nothing about the world Vella lives in.

Grim Fandango or Full Throttle followed the rules of storytelling (not necessary those of Aristotle), with an established world, main storyline, characters with detailed backgrounds that helped to move the plot, etc. But I don’t really feel the same with Broken Age. It feels like a number of random themes thrown in together for the sake of… symbolism? Maybe, but that’s not proper storytelling for me. Tim Schafer is an experienced writer, and this is what confuses me.

noknowncure - 04 February 2014 11:47 AM

Could you give an example of what you mean, using something you consider to be a strong story?

Grim Fandango has a strong story. And as soon as we leave the town, we already know that Manny has a main goal - to catch up with Meche; we know about his corrupted boss and his connections with mafia, as well as those of Domino’s; we know about underground rebel alliance; we also have a great number of detailed characters, all of them play important roles in the story; there’s a love line, several different conflicts, a world we are already familiar with.
And that’s only the beginning of the game, the same 3-4 hours!

@DaveyB. When I read your post last night my first reaction was: No… Not at all… Yes, it does… Huh??... I don’t get it… Yes, but… Okay…

And then I sat staring at my screen for a while, thinking about trees and forests. So here’s my reply. Add as many IMOs as you need.

All these analogies, metaphors, allegories, satires, symbols, fairy tales and mythology are too heavy a burden for a light, entertaining, humorous adventure game. Like I said before, I think several posters are reading far too much into BA. I’ve never seen the deep layers in Schafer’s previous adventures that others apparently have. And why should he do more than touch upon one or two serious subjects, like he did in Grim? His games are meant to be fun and entertaining. So Broken Age should *speak for itself*. And it doesn’t. Not yet anyway. It’s not clear where the story is heading and we don’t have a clue what’s going on. Everybody’s guess is as good as yours or mine. Although I enjoyed the puns and jokes, the first part as a whole feels empty and basically unsatisfactory.

About Shirley Jackson’s short story (1948). Read it *for its own sake*, if you haven’t already. It’s worth 15-20 minutes of your time. (I copied Schafer’s link to it in one of the BA threads, should be easy to find.) It’s much deeper and more disturbing than any Schafer game I’ve played. That’s as it should be, I’m not attacking Schafer. After I read it I googled info on the author and this particular story. It was banned in South Africa, that should tell you something.

What did surprise me is the lack of response of the fan community here and at the DF forums to the link. I’m way more interested in what Schafer himself has to say about what inspired him than in the wild metaphors fans here drag into the discussion. Gulliver’s Travels. Please! I’m sure I can find Waiting for Godot or Ethel the Aardvark in BA if I try hard enough.

Ethel the Aardvark was trotting down the lane one lovely summer day, trottety-trottety-trot…

Doom - 04 February 2014 06:25 PM

Grim Fandango has a strong story. And as soon as we leave the town, we already know that Manny has a main goal - to catch up with Meche; we know about his corrupted boss and his connections with mafia, as well as those of Domino’s; we know about underground rebel alliance; we also have a great number of detailed characters, all of them play important roles in the story; there’s a love line, several different conflicts, a world we are already familiar with.
And that’s only the beginning of the game, the same 3-4 hours!

But that’s just a differently told story. In BA first act the goal seemed fairly simple: For Vella Kill the Mog, Shay escape the glutches of Mother. But in the end it turned into a mystery that asks what is really going on in their world and who ar what is behind all that is happening.

In Grim Fandango we are aware of the people that are connected to the plot, but that alone doesn’t make the story telling better or worse, it’s just handeling the exposion of the character differently. The key difference here is that Broken Age is also more of a mystery game, where all the players or their motivations aren’t known immediatly.

DaveyB - 05 February 2014 02:43 PM

I don’t know if you missed the point or are being deliberately obtuse here?

That’s a deliberate insult, and not your first one. I have been civil to you. I’m not taking this lying down after the undeserved flack I got from fanboys who wanted to express their contempt for me when I posted about my disappointment in Schafer. I also got singled out by the mods for being sarcastic, while you get away with things like total crap and stupid. I could call YOU stupid for saying that Gulliver’s Travels is about growing up/maturing when it’s a satire, but I’m through talking to someone who apparently delights in lecturing and being unpleasant to other posters.

tomimt - 05 February 2014 10:53 AM

But that’s just a differently told story. In BA first act the goal seemed fairly simple: For Vella Kill the Mog, Shay escape the glutches of Mother. But in the end it turned into a mystery that asks what is really going on in their world and who ar what is behind all that is happening.

I find it a loosely told story, because everything is based on a series of accidents - Vella accidentally escapes, accidentally gets to the sky world, falls down to the hipster’s hut, meets Alex, who has a “weapon”, while Shay accidentally meets Marek and simply waits until they are hit by Vella
Shay’s part is better told, and his “world” is better detailed. Yet it still feels like amateur writing to me in the sense of storytelling. Everything is very… schematic, I don’t know. Anyway, let’s agree to disagree as I was told

DaveyB - 05 February 2014 02:55 PM

It’s shown to us at the end that Marek was lying about being in space, and about saving the poor, helpless creatures. So why you would conclude that Broken Age “quickly turned into usual conspiracy, totalitarians vs rebels.” is still a point that you have totally failed to explain. It’s beyond me.

Because that’s how the story is told. Badly told, in my opinion. Marek turns out to be a key element to the whole plot. Since we have no idea about his role in it, we have no idea about the plot and it’s meaning. And that’s half way into the game. What we are left with is exactly like this: rebel against totalitarian sacrifice (in Vella’s case) and rebel against totalitarian ship that turns something different at the end (as Shay). Marek makes no different so far - he is a cliffhanger!

What is beyond me is what you think there was in Full Throttle or Monkey Island that was “adult” as per your definition. Or would you describe them as “infantile” too??

It was the writing mostly. Full Throttle has an adult enough storyline, characters and dialogue, Monkey Island has a whole scope of razor sharp jokes, very polished to suit all ages. Broken Age has nothing of those + it is presented as a kid’s media, when development (plot, world, characters) doesn’t matter much.

Doom - 06 February 2014 06:53 AM

I find it a loosely told story, because everything is based on a series of accidents - Vella accidentally escapes, accidentally gets to the sky world, falls down to the hipster’s hut, meets Alex, who has a “weapon”, while Shay accidentally meets Marek and simply waits until they are hit by Vella
Shay’s part is better told, and his “world” is better detailed. Yet it still feels like amateur writing to me in the sense of storytelling. Everything is very… schematic, I don’t know. Anyway, let’s agree to disagree as I was told

Vellas escape Isn’t really an accident though. She has been thinking about it but hasn’t really made any concrete plans for it. And when the feast begins she decides once and for all, that she’s not going to go through it and escapes by very delibrate actions, using the things that are around her to escape. After that her story is pretty much geared towards getting somewhere the Mog is appearing the next in order to finish the job as well as figuring out HOW she could defeat it.