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No new postsbroken age initial thoughts
Stories for kids/families can certainly have depth or multiple layers that also make them rewarding for adults. Obvious examples are some of Pixar’s or Studio Ghibli’s movies, shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender or Ren & Stimpy, and comics like Calvin & Hobbes and Carl Barks’ Scrooge/Donald Duck adventures.
I don’t think Ren & Stimpy is a kids show. It just happened at the time when there was no South Park or Adult Swim. Then again, I never liked Nickelodeon toons, both as a kid and adult. They seem too trashy to me. Pixar is also a different thing - they HAVE to make their toons available for everyone. They are big screen AAA releases and must be profitable. And with Dexter you just question the quality of writing.
That… doesn’t seem like it really addresses the point I was making, namely that stuff nominally aimed at kids can be deep or otherwise meaningful to adults.
Writing a game or a movie that can be enjoyed by both kid and adult, for each of his own reasons, is a very different thing compared to a game simply aimed at kids. And that’s how all his earlier works qualify to me.
Broken Age concerns a couple of seemingly adult themes very briefly. Girl sacrifice is NOT adult - it’s a link to old fairy tales.
The two things are not in conflict. Old fairy tales are full of themes that resonate with adults.
Nothing adult about mocking religious or cult leaders as well, especially in a such straightforward way.
So in your opinion, that’s more something kids appreciate? We’ll have to agree to disagree.
And with all respect, I don’t think your points about metaphors are all valid. Just a couple of posts earlier I suggested completely different explanations for some of them. And they might turn to be simple fairy tale moments about girls being eaten by a sea gods as well. No indication!
I would argue that part of what makes a story mature is that it has room for rich interpretation. It doesn’t necessarily mean just one thing. Something to keep in mind though is, if I remember correctly, Tim did talk in one of the early videos about how he picked up a lot of classes on stuff like mythology in college, and would therefore no doubt be familiar with the standard symbolic significance of the motifs he is using.
Again, those are only suggestions. I can suggest deep meanings for Pokemon, Gummi Bears or Teletubbies, but what’s the point?
You seem to be very dismissive of the concept of subtext. The point is, if significant parts of the adult audience perceive the subtext to be there and to be relevant to them, they might appreciate it as a work (also) for adults. In this case, many of us do see adult-oriented subtext and qualities in Broken Age, and you haven’t really made a point that it’s not there.
For me mature themes are economics, ecological problems, criminal, social inequality, propaganda in developed countries, hot/cold/religious wars, corruption, terrorism, historical links to the present, etc.
Firstly, I think Broken Age happens to allude to several of those topics…
Secondly, I note that you do not mention anything of a personal nature, e.g. dealing with growing up, growing old, loss, building meaningful relationships, coming to realizations about yourself (or failing to do so), dealing with bad shit life throws at you, etc., etc. You know, the stuff great literature is made up of.
So I have narrow views because I don’t have much interest in kids toons or games as an adult? But I enjoy many other things I didn’t enjoy as a kid. People change with age, you know (if only it wasn’t broken
).
On the other hand, judging by your profile you do seem to preserve a fondness for a certain game that is hardly remembered for its thought-provoking maturity. 
continuing through the game is still proving to be entertaining for me… but my thoughts on the maturity aspect haven’t changed much. i just think the presentation should have been better. while monkey island has its obvious juvenile/immature aspects, it still felt less disney.
what i would really have preferred from schafers return is something more akin to full throttle. THAT kind of atmosphere, is what im talking about. its gritty. it had attitude. it had a completely unique setting and style that i really got attached to. id die to play a full throttle II… though i guess it will never happen seeing as the voice actor for ben is deceased (i think?). i wouldn’t care at all if they got a replacement though, i wish there were as many full throttles as monkey islands 
(or at least a trilogy). i also think it would make an excellent film.
Full Throttle is a completely different experience then Broken Age. Its right and good that they are visually and thematically different/
Adventure Gamer Since 1992
I would argue that part of what makes a story mature is that it has room for rich interpretation. It doesn’t necessarily mean just one thing. Something to keep in mind though is, if I remember correctly, Tim did talk in one of the early videos about how he picked up a lot of classes on stuff like mythology in college, and would therefore no doubt be familiar with the standard symbolic significance of the motifs he is using.
Sexual awakening, mythology, illusion of safety, global warming, drug-resistant disease agents, growing doubts about the justness of the established world order, poverty, factory farming, cruelty to animals, western imperialism, abortion, moral awakening, eager for an honorable death, war… wow, that Tim Schafer covered it all, didn’t he. The man is a genius, metaphorically speaking.
Are you quite sure you’re not reading too much into Broken Age?
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
Well, a lot of those were just examples of how a growing feeling of “Is it really supposed to be like this?” (which is a big part of Vella’s story and perhaps a smaller part of Shay’s) can apply to real life. I never suggested that Schafer was specifically talking about factory farming or abortion, but although most of us have not been raised by computers or sacrificed to giant monsters, those things represent experiences that are fairly universal.
And no, I don’t think I’m reading too much into the game. Thanks for checking.
To take this thread back on topic, my initial thoughts on Broken Age were ‘wow this looks great’ ‘wow this has some great ideas’ and then ‘wow this writing is bad’.
I know Schaffer’s games have always been verbose, but there’s no reason for so much useless text. Good writing should tell me a lot of things in as concise and evocative way as possible, not spread it all out over long, laborious, unskippable voice acting.
I didn’t think the writing was as good as Schafer’s has been in past works, but for different reasons. Can you give any examples of what you mean?
Sorry, the notification of a reply went to my spam box, otherwise I would have posted sooner.
The worst example (or the most memorable to me personally) was when you enter the cloud kingdom or whatever it was, and talk with the father and child. There was obviously a lot to explain there - the relationship, the ‘rules’ of that cloud kingdom, their thoughts on Mog Chothra, and some mentions of periphery characters. My idea of good writing - or good video game writing more specifically - would have been to imply all of the information I needed subtly and as concisely as possible, whilst also being humourous. Instead, about half of the dialogue felt like needless, perfunctory filler in between rather overt information-dumps.
The characters in that example I found quite flat too. The child’s greatest characteristic was that he forgets names, and the father - who is apparently a devotee of a guru, which could have been a great theme - is played like the typical adventure game character: silly, throwaway, and not worth giving any substantial kind of personality.
I think that constant laying out of information, along with quite blunt humour, was probably part of the reason everyone is talking about the game as childish.
Monkey Island 2 was the first game I played, and the one I’ve played more times than any other. Almost every single line in that game has a sense of place, a sense of the character behind it, a point, and in most cases, a sharp sense of humour. Broken Age’s dialogue always felt like Tim Schafer, talking to me, through some hollow mouthpieces.
That’s my take on it anyway, and I probably sound more harsh than I actually feel about it.
That… doesn’t seem like it really addresses the point I was making, namely that stuff nominally aimed at kids can be deep or otherwise meaningful to adults.
Ren & Stimpy or Wally are not aimed at kids. They are family toons at best, and the same goes to Schafer’s games. As a kid you experience a funny tale, as an adult you discover social/political messages. But this doesn’t mean you discover anything you want!
That’s something the creator of Black Square would say: “I drew it, sold it, and now you are free to stare at my square and search for any hidden messages”. That’s NOT subtext. Subtext is always hinted - either in the context or outside of it, by the author. I know you WANT to see messages, because you know that simple fairy tale is not up to Schafer’s standards. But so far people act like the hipster lumberjack: see metaphors everywhere without any reason. Anyway, I hope the 2nd part will share some light.
Secondly, I note that you do not mention anything of a personal nature, e.g. dealing with growing up, growing old, loss, building meaningful relationships, coming to realizations about yourself (or failing to do so), dealing with bad shit life throws at you, etc., etc. You know, the stuff great literature is made up of.
I simply don’t think it’s Schafer’s area. It’s something to be expected from Jane Jensen or Ragnar Tornquist. And even then I hope they won’t be bothered much by this. There’s enough of this shit in real life to be depressed by games in addition.
On the other hand, judging by your profile you do seem to preserve a fondness for a certain game that is hardly remembered for its thought-provoking maturity.
NOT DOOM! 
But seriously, I don’t expect deepness from everything. Doom is the best game ever for different reasons: it’s a pure example of entertainment. There may be no plot, and the premise is silly, yet it’s all about gameplay. Which adventures - and especially Broken Age - are not.
Monkey Island 2 was the first game I played, and the one I’ve played more times than any other. Almost every single line in that game has a sense of place, a sense of the character behind it, a point, and in most cases, a sharp sense of humour. Broken Age’s dialogue always felt like Tim Schafer, talking to me, through some hollow mouthpieces.
Absolutely agree with Jyn on everything!
PC means personal computer
Ren & Stimpy or Wally are not aimed at kids. They are family toons at best,
They’re cartoons that appeal to people who enjoy animation. The age of the audience is immaterial.
As a kid you experience a funny tale, as an adult you discover social/political messages. But this doesn’t mean you discover anything you want!
Provided you can back up what you gather from any story, with convincing examples and comparisons, your reading is just as valid an interpretation as anyone else’s, including the creator.
They’re cartoons that appeal to people who enjoy animation.
That’s what Captain Obvious would say But in reality people don’t watch cartoons for the animation exclusively. There are themes, stories, styles, etc.
Provided you can back up what you gather from any story, with convincing examples and comparisons, your reading is just as valid an interpretation as anyone else’s, including the creator.
That’s not the case with Broken Age. There’s nothing to back up your thoughts, because the game world and game story are too infantile at this stage.
PC means personal computer
That’s not the case with Broken Age. There’s nothing to back up your thoughts, because the game world and game story are too infantile at this stage.
You’re as entitled to your opinion as anybody else. I just wish you wouldn’t portray what is purely your opinion as cast iron fact. FYI I think your opinion above is total crap as do a lot of other people. And pretty much every review I’ve seen. But don’t let that put youoff telling us what the truth is about Broken Age - we’re just too childish to understand & need your help.
They’re cartoons that appeal to people who enjoy animation.
That’s what Captain Obvious would say
I use animation as a broad umbrella genre term into which themes, stories and styles are a part.
Provided you can back up what you gather from any story, with convincing examples and comparisons, your reading is just as valid an interpretation as anyone else’s, including the creator.
That’s not the case with Broken Age. There’s nothing to back up your thoughts, because the game world and game story are too infantile at this stage.
You’ve been continually demonstrating your own narrow-minded ignorance for a while, but this is a cracker!
Just because you’re unable to see themes and ideas that other people have been discussing here and elsewhere, doesn’t mean they aren’t there. If you want to directly challenge any that are put forward, please feel free to try, but outright dismissal without explanation is exceptionally dull and ultimately worthless.
Jyn, thanks for the more in-depth response. I don’t agree with you, but experiences are subjective and I can see where you’re coming from.
Ren & Stimpy or Wally are not aimed at kids. They are family toons at best, and the same goes to Schafer’s games. As a kid you experience a funny tale, as an adult you discover social/political messages. But this doesn’t mean you discover anything you want!
Ren & Stimpy aired on Nickelodeon, a children’s channel, in a block with Rugrats and Doug, both firmly targeted at children. It was by any standard primarily a kids’ show. Sure, it also had a secondary audience in mind, but then again that was exactly the point I was making.
Sorry (to the rest of you) to keep such an off-topic argument going, but where I’m going with this is that how you distinguish between stuff “for kids” and “stuff kids might like but that’s not really aimed at kids” is completely arbitrary. It’s not based on any objective criteria or on how people of different ages actually experience those shows/films/games/stories. Just “I grew out of this, so it’s for kids, but I still enjoy that, so it’s not,” as if your personal likes and dislikes is the absolute standard for what counts as mature. As an argument, it’s no more than a way for you to dismiss any possible depth in Broken Age by decreeing that it belongs in a category that per your definition has no depth. It boils down to “because I say so!” Which, unsurprisingly, fails to convince anyone else.
I know you WANT to see messages, because you know that simple fairy tale is not up to Schafer’s standards. But so far people act like the hipster lumberjack: see metaphors everywhere without any reason.
You’re the one trying to make “fairy tale” a term of disparagement. I think I’ve pointed out already that fairy tales are in fact full of symbolism and adult concerns. (Many are in fact decidedly unsuitable for children; just have a look at an unexpurgated version of 1001 Nights.)
Secondly, I note that you do not mention anything of a personal nature, e.g. dealing with growing up, growing old, loss, building meaningful relationships, coming to realizations about yourself (or failing to do so), dealing with bad shit life throws at you, etc., etc. You know, the stuff great literature is made up of.
I simply don’t think it’s Schafer’s area. It’s something to be expected from Jane Jensen or Ragnar Tornquist. And even then I hope they won’t be bothered much by this. There’s enough of this shit in real life to be depressed by games in addition.
Are we thinking of the same Tim Schafer? The guy who made freaking Psychonauts, a veritable parade of life trauma and unresolved personal issues?!
And you’ve swung around pretty quickly from demanding that “adult” games deal with “criminal, social inequality, propaganda in developed countries, hot/cold/religious wars, corruption, terrorism”, etc., to now saying you don’t want games to depress you.
FYI I think your opinion above is total crap as do a lot of other people.
FYI I don’t give a fuck. I’m not gonna put IMO everywhere I step just because you kids are so sensitive.
You’ve been continually demonstrating your own narrow-minded ignorance for a while, but this is a cracker!
Just because you’re unable to see themes and ideas that other people have been discussing here and elsewhere, doesn’t mean they aren’t there. If you want to directly challenge any that are put forward, please feel free to try, but outright dismissal without explanation is exceptionally dull and ultimately worthless.
Why should I challenge someone’s hypothesises? Everyone’s free to discuss whatever they want. I also threw in a thought or two. That doesn’t make them anything but theories, because the story and gameworld are not developed enough to confirm them.
And stop making it personal, you sound like fanboys.
PC means personal computer
FYI I think your opinion above is total crap as do a lot of other people.
FYI I don’t give a fuck. I’m not gonna put IMO everywhere I step just because you kids are so sensitive.
Then don’t be surprised when no one take anything you say seriously.
Adventure Gamer Since 1992
Ren & Stimpy aired on Nickelodeon, a children’s channel, in a block with Rugrats and Doug, both firmly targeted at children. It was by any standard primarily a kids’ show. Sure, it also had a secondary audience in mind, but then again that was exactly the point I was making.
Because there was no such thing as an adult kids show back then, I pointed that out. The toon was always considered controversial and some themes were even censored.
You’re the one trying to make “fairy tale” a term of disparagement. I think I’ve pointed out already that fairy tales are in fact full of symbolism and adult concerns. (Many are in fact decidedly unsuitable for children; just have a look at an unexpurgated version of 1001 Nights.)
I read uncensored fairy tales from mid-centuries and I grew up on Roman/Greek mythology. Some of the stories are indeed not suitable for kids today. But sacrificing maidens to sea gods never stroke me as something shocking - and I remember those tales from my earliest years. Now plots like “A shoe was too big to fit her daughter’s foot, so she chopped off her fingers”, or “He caught the wolf with his bare hands, turned him inside out and wore as a coat” are really nasty… Of modern examples, I see Gilliam’s films as adult fairy tales. They have symbolism, mature content and a lot of satire.
Are we thinking of the same Tim Schafer? The guy who made freaking Psychonauts, a veritable parade of life trauma and unresolved personal issues?!
And you’ve swung around pretty quickly from demanding that “adult” games deal with “criminal, social inequality, propaganda in developed countries, hot/cold/religious wars, corruption, terrorism”, etc., to now saying you don’t want games to depress you.
I’m not a fan of personal dramas in media, because authors tend to go way too serious with them. Shay’s story did start as on a funny note as a satire on mother-child relationship. But it quickly turned into usual conspiracy, totalitarians vs rebels. That’s why I say themes are underdeveloped IN THE FIRST PART (for sensitive people)).
Raz’s life story revolved around life trauma, yes, but the game itself was presented as a mix of different satirical moments (the milkman conspiracy!), parodies, stereotypes, plus lots and lots of gameplay. Until the last chapter, when Raz confronts his fears.
PC means personal computer
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