[Hammerite]

i was bout 14.

[bulldog]

Sometimes I wish that I could understand males more then what I do .... It would make life so much easier

[Squinky]

Sometimes I wish I could understand people, period.

[Lee in Limbo]

Originally Posted by Squinky

Sometimes I wish I could understand people, period.

But what could you possibly learn about people from reading this thread, other than I started very early?

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Lee in Limbo

But what could you possibly learn about people from reading this thread, other than I started very early?

That I seem to be one of the very few people on these forums who'd rather not publically discuss this topic; therefore, the majority of people have much less shame than I do? *shrugs*

Also, I have to say I have serious issues with the following earlier statement of yours:

Originally Posted by Lee in Limbo

And I do worry for those who attempt abstinence. I tend to think these are the folks who need it most.

[Sage]

Originally Posted by Lee in Limbo

And I do worry for those who attempt abstinence. I tend to think these are the folks who need it most.

Hmmm...I actually cheered when I read that because for once someone said exactly what I was thinking besides me.

[Squinky]

*grumbles and slinks away, feeling even more like a freak*

[Melanie68]

Originally Posted by Squinky

*grumbles and slinks away, feeling even more like a freak*

Well, I don't think you're a freak. I'm not in a relationship currently so therefore... but I have no desire to find someone to just have sex with so therefore, that isn't a part of my life now. Having an emotionally intimate connection to someone with whom I'll be physically intimate is important to me. So if I don't have the former, the latter won't be happening.

Hopefully that made sense.

[Squinky]

I just find it extremely condescending and disrespectful to assume that people who choose not to have sex at certain points in their lives are repressed, and that they're somehow incomplete as human beings. I also personally disagree with sexual gratification being a "need", because that's not the case with me; I put sex in the "nice, but not essential for my happiness and well-being" category.

Sadly, it seems as though not many people agree with me on these fronts. Hence, I'm a freak.

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by Squinky

That I seem to be one of the very few people on these forums who'd rather not publically discuss this topic; therefore, the majority of people have much less shame than I do? *shrugs*

I have to take a little bit of disagreement with this.

If you don't want to talk about it, that's fine... but I don't think shame or lack thereof is involved, because I don't think talking about this sort of thing is shameful.

Sex is a natural biological function, after all. If you're having sex or masturbating, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to talk about it, especially since most other people on the planet have done one or the other (or both). Sex tends to come off as the proverbial "thing (almost) everyone does but nobody talks about", and I think that's pretty silly and unhealthy.

There's a proper time and place for this sort of thing, just like every other discussion, but I see no reason why a section of a message board devoted to general topics doesn't qualify as such. In fact, a message board is a great place because it's easier to ignore topics you don't want to talk about.

***

As for abstinence... well, I have a guy I was once in love with who was asexual. We clicked really well, and he was sweet to me and cared about me, but expressed a lack of interest in physical intimacy of any kind (and has never given me any reason to believe that's anything other than the truth).

So I found myself in the position of where if I wanted to date this guy, I'd have to never have any physical contact at all with him. And... I couldn't do it. I grew up in an affectionate household, used to kisses and cuddles and hugs and whatnot, and being deprived of that makes me lonely. It's not even just the pleasure/passion part of sex that I desire (though that's part of it), but just that I miss being close to someone. Physical closeness is just as important to me as emotional closeness.

Physical intimacy without emotional intimacy is empty... but emotional intimacy without physical intimacy is still at least somewhat lonely. It's like having to cut off part of myself from someone I love instead of being able to share completely.

So, I guess to me it would depend on why someone's choosing not to have sex. Choosing not to have sex because you haven't found anyone you have feelings for is one thing; that I practice myself.

But choosing not to have sex *at all*, even with someone you love... that I'd find a bit unhealthy... it says to me you feel you need to keep part of yourself apart from that person.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[bulldog]

I agree Jeysie well said

[Lee in Limbo]

Originally Posted by Squinky

That I seem to be one of the very few people on these forums who'd rather not publically discuss this topic; therefore, the majority of people have much less shame than I do? *shrugs*

Also, I have to say I have serious issues with the following earlier statement of yours:

I tend to think of you as a special case in this matter, love. But beyond that, I will say that you have expressed several times now that sex isn't an intrusive factor in your mindset. Taking you at your word (which I always do), I am therefore left with the impression that you simply don't have the same level of sex drive as most folks, including many of those who bear the standard of abstinence. I do know you require affection and comfort, but that your actual libidinous requirements are not a deciding factor in what sort of contact you require. I accept that from you, where I don't often do for others. I'll come back to this.

Originally Posted by Squinky

*grumbles and slinks away, feeling even more like a freak*

You are not unique in this regard, darling. But you are, as far as I can tell, in a considerable minority. Nothing for it, I'm afraid. But I'm disinclined to label you as a freak, particularly in a nominally repressed Judeo-Christian society that obsesses over abstinence and chastity, where to be determinedly and demonstrably sexual is often regarded as freakish behaviour.

Originally Posted by Squinky

I just find it extremely condescending and disrespectful to assume that people who choose not to have sex at certain points in their lives are repressed, and that they're somehow incomplete as human beings. I also personally disagree with sexual gratification being a "need", because that's not the case with me; I put sex in the "nice, but not essential for my happiness and well-being" category.

Sadly, it seems as though not many people agree with me on these fronts. Hence, I'm a freak.

This is the part where I offer hugs and sincere apologies if anything I said here offended you. I know it sounds trite, but I wasn't referring to you when I said it, though it can be said on principle that I should have taken you into account when I said it.

Now, as for my CV in this department, I have no letters after my name, so I am in no position to say with medically certified certainty what 'normal' sexual behaviour is or can be. What I can say from experience is that virtually every person I have met who attempted some form of chastity or abstinence generally found themselves in bad situations, owing to their determination to deny what for them were actually very strong sex drives. From what I could see, treating sex like a recessive personality trait tends to get you exactly what you were hoping not to achieve, but in the least expected and often most distressing way.

From your statements about sexuality not being a need, I gather that you do not experience the kind of longings that can lead to the sort of lashback against repression that many people feel is the ultimate and inevitable result of deliberately denying the sex one knows one desires. If abstinence and a highly controllable sex drive come perfectly natural to you, then I applaud you and ask that you forgive anything I might say that implies otherwise.

All of that said, I do still believe that abstinence in general is a very worrisome concept, and that most folks ought to come to grips with their sexuality, rather than deliberately denying it. The truth will out, whether you have an honest and complete awareness of your sex drive or not. Abstinence as a personal choice, particularly for a point in time when sex simply doesn't fit in your current lifestyle, can be a perfectly fine thing. We are not meant to be slaves to our sexuality either. However, abstinence as a moral conviction is often times proved horribly wrong, and generally leads to unplanned pregnancies and unhappy marriages, or worse, broken homes.

Abstinence is not to be trifled with, and most people ought not to mess with it. It does not work just because it's the morally right(eous) thing to do. It works (when it does) because it is a personal decision and a conviction that 'now is not the time'. I held that conviction myself until I was a couple of years older than you, and have abstained from sex at a number of times in my life since then, so believe me when I say I understand.

However, not everyone is as self-aware as me, and I doubt most folks feel the same way you do about their sexual impulses, either. Most folks have very simple and not particularly well thought-out ideas about the nature of their sexuality, and that ignorance most often does more harm than good. I believe that with absolute conviction. If people could learn to keep their morality and their sexuality apart, I truly beleive there would be a lot less religious extremism and misery due to sexual repression in the world today.

And with that, I am shutting up on this topic, unless and until you and I are talking privately, where we can actually get answers in a reasonable amount of time. I'm sorry to have kept you waiting, love.
____________________

And to the rest of you freaks, I apologize for this being such a closed discussion. You'll get yours, I gather.

[Sage]

Ya know, Lee, it's getting annoying the way you keep saying what I'm thinking...
Especially when you do so more eloquently than I can!

[Hammerite]

Originally Posted by bulldog

Sometimes I wish that I could understand males more then what I do .... It would make life so much easier

i wish i could understand females just a little.

[Lee in Limbo]

Originally Posted by Sage

Ya know, Lee, it's getting annoying the way you keep saying what I'm thinking...
Especially when you do so more eloquently than I can!

When I'm not pissing away my talent on commercial graphics, I'm a writer (of fiction and songs mainly, but there you have it). It's my job to express eloquently what others wish they could say better.

[bulldog]

Originally Posted by Hammerite

i wish i could understand females just a little.

Maybe we could ask Santa to bring us some understanding for Christmas?

[Jeysie]

I understand/get along with men better than I do with women, for the most part... about the only aspect of men I don't understand is how to make them be attracted to me.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[bulldog]

Originally Posted by Jeysie

I understand/get along with men better than I do with women, for the most part... about the only aspect of men I don't understand is how to make them be attracted to me.

Peace & Luv, Liz

We sure do think a lot a like .... I get along with men better and female well I have two female friends. My sister -n -law and my mom. I also have a close female friend; I wouldn’t say a best friend but a really close friend.

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Lee in Limbo

But I'm disinclined to label you as a freak, particularly in a nominally repressed Judeo-Christian society that obsesses over abstinence and chastity, where to be determinedly and demonstrably sexual is often regarded as freakish behaviour.

You see, as a university student who resides in such liberal places as Vancouver and San Francisco, I often forget this fact. Maybe I should move somewhere with more rednecks.

...no, wait, bad idea. Then I'll feel like a freak for being too liberal for them.

Originally Posted by Lee in Limbo

This is the part where I offer hugs and sincere apologies if anything I said here offended you. I know it sounds trite, but I wasn't referring to you when I said it, though it can be said on principle that I should have taken you into account when I said it.

Well, you did write that months ago, likely before you really even knew me. I just thoroughly enjoy picking on you.

As for your clarification on the subject, what you say does make a lot of sense, and I agree with it. I'm very much against repression and denial, and all for self-awareness - it's just that not all self-awareness leads everyone to the same place. Also, regarding religion (a subject I noticed Trep and others touched on earlier), I don't think it's religion itself that causes the aforementioned problems, but a misguided application thereof.

Originally Posted by Lee in Limbo

And with that, I am shutting up on this topic, unless and until you and I are talking privately, where we can actually get answers in a reasonable amount of time.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Jeysie

I understand/get along with men better than I do with women, for the most part... about the only aspect of men I don't understand is how to make them be attracted to me.

Most of my friends these days are male, but the ones I tend to get closest to are either women or men with well-developed feminine sides. Furthermore, I tend to find that men (and women - hey, I did say I lived in very liberal areas of the world!) seem to be most attracted to me at times in my life when I just don't care. Funny how that works out, eh?

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by Squinky

Most of my friends these days are male, but the ones I tend to get closest to are either women or men with well-developed feminine sides. Furthermore, I tend to find that men (and women - hey, I did say I lived in very liberal areas of the world!) seem to be most attracted to me at times in my life when I just don't care. Funny how that works out, eh?

Heh! I've heard it said myself that you find love only when you're not looking... but since I'm perpetually lonely (and about to become even lonelier soon) and I don't have anything else in my life going even remotely right to distract me from that, I'm always looking.

As for the former comment, I'm pretty much opposite... most of my personality traits are rather "masculine" (though I wouldn't go as far as "butch"), so, in addition to being able to relate to those traits in men, being around men brings my feminine traits into play in contrast and makes me feel more like my actual gender.

Whereas being around people with noticeable feminine traits leaves me feeling a little freakish/bewildered. It's especially a bit weird-feeling whenever I encounter a guy (usually gay) who's girlier than I am...

Peace & Luv, Liz