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The Big Adventure Gamers “VS - There Can Be Only One” Tournament
| Poll: Would you like to have a group stage before direct knock-out duels? Total Votes: 32 |
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|---|---|
| Group stage before the direct elimination duels | 22  |
| Immediately start with the knock-out rounds (128 - 64 - 32...) | 10 |
...and if it’s only about 1 winner, it won’t matter how we do it.
It really is!
It doesn’t matter how early a game is eliminated, it is either good enough to go all the way and be declared:
Best Game in the History of Adventure Gaming
Or it will be eliminated at some point.
That is simply the nature of knock-out tournaments.
You can’t conclude anything about the 2nd, 3rd.. 10th best games in these kind of tournaments, and any fan of game X can rightfully claim that it would have fared much better if it hadn’t met game Y in the first knock-out round or hadn’t been in group Z in the group stage - But they can’t claim that it would have won if…?
If we wanted to make a top 10 or 100 list, the whole thing should have been done differently from the very start - but as far as I’m concerned this is perfectly fine, and there is no need to start changing anything now.
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
Thanks for clarifying, yes, I think it makes sense to declare just 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th place, as you suggested.
Yeah, I thought about it more and I’m not sure we’re even declaring a 4th place, per se. I’ve edited my previous post to say that we’re just declaring 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.
Per the Overview thread, it looks like we’ll be holding an extra match to find our 3rd place candidate, and I guess you could say the loser of that gets 4th place, but we can’t feel confident that another game from the Quarter Finals couldn’t have beat the 4th place game for 4th place.
I guess that’s true of 2nd and 3rd place, too, it just seems like the rankings grow more dubious the more places we declare.
___QF1___
\___SF1___
___QF2___/ \
\___F1____
___QF3___ / \
\___SF2___/ \
___QF4___/ \
\___Winner!___
___QF5___ /
\___SF3___ /
___QF6___/ \ /
\___F2____/
___QF7___ /
\___SF4___/
___QF8___/
SF_loser_1__
\
\
\
\__Third place!__
/
/
/
SF_loser_2__/
Come to think of it - changing it into a double-knock-out tournament would be a bit more fair, at least regarding the secondary positions, and it can still be done without changing the first knock-out round… But it is also far more complicated, and few people actually understands how it works, so .. lets leave it as it is 
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup
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Come to think of it - changing it into a double-knock-out tournament would be a bit more fair, at least regarding the secondary positions, and it can still be done without changing the first knock-out round… But it is also far more complicated, and few people actually understands how it works, so .. lets leave it as it is
LOL, no, that will take twice as much voting, won’t it? 
Considering, as Zane said sometime back, these tournaments are really designed for lots more voters than we have at the AG forums, I’m glad if we can just keep the momentum high and finish the darn thing. 
Are you pointing out that they declare a fourth place?
I see. I’m not the most knowledgeable person here about elimination tournaments or football/soccer, so my understanding of how all this tournament stuff is supposed to work could easily be wrong.
LOL, no, that will take twice as much voting, won’t it?
More - about 3 times actually
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
Still need to comment on the I-P groups.
Group I: no real surprises. Big gap between the first three and the fourth game.
Group J: glad to see To the Moon performing well, otherwise no surprises.
Group K: absolutely killer group! Loom performed better than expected and Gray Matter is a bit of a surprise. The biggest surprise is The Walking Dead not making it. And I’m disappointed that Phoenix Wright didn’t make it. Cursed underrepresentation of non-PC gamers! Simon the Sorcerer II underperformed as well. But that can be expected somewhat when Grim Fandango gets all those 7 point votes… 
Group L: Monkey Island and Resonance dominated as expected. Both Myst games made it!
Group M: No surprises. The biggest surprise may be the enormous gap between the first 4 and the rest. I’d expected a better performance from Cognition.
Group N: glad to see Larry make it in the nick of time by tie-breaker. That means no surprises in the first 4. Given how well-regarded Police Quest 2 and Return to Mysterious Island are, I’d expected both to perform better. And The 7th Guest totally got the shaft, despite its historical importance, imo.
Group O: Killer performance by Blackwell Epiphany! And it’s a shame that Heavy Rain and Hotel Dusk underperformed.
Group P: No surprises. Well, maybe Gone Home underperformed. It also goes to show yet again that non-PC games have a hard time.
The only games out of AG’s top 32 (seeds 1 and 2) that didn’t make the round of 64 are:
Bad Mojo (which is a surprise, imo)
Heavy Rain (which is a PS3 exclusive)
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney (which is a GBA/DS exclusive that got an iOS port)
Police Quest 2: The Vengeance (ancient text adventure in the least popular Sierra Quest series)
The entire top 23 made it, though. 
My main gripe is sofar that all 3 Monkey Island games are in there, which seems like a bit much. AG’s Top 100 has the third on a much lower position, but given the popularity of the game amongst our forum users, I really do expect it to stay on pole position.
Yes, Monkey Island had the first three games in the top 45 of the top 100, and all three made it through here (all won their group).
BUT…
Escape to Monkey Island isn’t in the competition, and while Tales of Monkey Island is, it didn’t make it through its group…
So that’s really only 60% for Monkey Island (or 75% if you don’t count Escape which didn’t get nominated), yet your gripe is that all 3 Monkey Island games are in there??? 
Why shouldn’t they be? They’re awesome!
Besides, if you want to compare: all three Gabriel Knight games are in the top 32 (!) of the top 100, and all three made it through here (with only GK3 not winning its group and that’s only because it was up against Day of the Tentacle). So that’s 100% for Gabriel. And nobody’s complaining because those games deserve to be in there.
As do the first three Monkey Island games…
You are taking it far too seriously subbi. If you really want the most subjective opinion around, then the Top-100 of the site is probably the best choice, since it includes many -not that well known - but high quality games (Callahan’s, The Dark Eye, etc) , games that in this kind of competition wouldn’t stand much chance. It is a bit 6-7 years old of course, but it still does the trick if you except the more recent gems. This is just a competition to have fun!!
^ This.
Except that the Top 100 is only 3 years old.
Besides, we could do this again in a year or so, with for instance the top 64 as seeded games and 64 other games up for nomination, and go to knockout rounds immediately. We’d get an entirely different result.
Except for at least 6 of the final 8 games being LucasArts. That won’t change.
It’s just a popularity contest. DS and other handheld games or console exclusives will never perform. Text adventures will never perform. And with their popularity, LucasArts games will always prevail…
Which is why the site’s top 100 is a lot more sound than this. This is just for fun.
And that’s also why we shouldn’t make things overly complicated by adding additional group stages at a later point.
I must have been triggered by the ‘final standings, based on calculated results’ placeholder link on that same overview page.
That was just an idea I was toying with, where the games that participated get ranked based on their result in the knock-out stages. It’s something that’s often done in sports tournaments as well. The first four games are the winner, losing finalist, and the winner and loser of the third-place match. The fifth game would be the one that lost against the winner in the quarter finals, the sixth would be the one that lost against the losing finalist in the quarter finals, etc. until all are ranked.
There’s nothing official about ANY of this…
The truth can’t hurt you, it’s just like the dark: it scares you witless but in time you see things clear and stark. - Elvis Costello
Maybe this time I can be strong, but since I know who I am, I’m probably wrong. Maybe this time I can go far, but thinking about where I’ve been ain’t helping me start. - Michael Kiwanuka
I agree then, we should continue as it is. And in the next rounds a voting time frame should definitely be shorten, we’ll see a percentage of votes that will come in the last few day, but I suspect it will be less than 5%. I’m afraid we don’t lose a momentum.
Are you pointing out that they declare a fourth place?
If you’re having a third place match, you’re bound to declare the fourth place. European championship doesn’t have the third place match, World Cup has it.
It doesn’t matter that much, really. Either you have it, or not. My main point is there’s no need to overthink the format. Either you have a Cup format (like this one, with qualies + knockout) or League format (where you pit each one against everyone).
Recently finished: Four Last Things 4/5, Edna & Harvey: The Breakout 5/5, Chains of Satinav 3,95/5, A Vampyre Story 88, Sam Peters 3/5, Broken Sword 1 4,5/5, Broken Sword 2 4,3/5, Broken Sword 3 85, Broken Sword 5 81, Gray Matter 4/5\nCurrently playing: Broken Sword 4, Keepsake (Let\‘s Play), Callahan\‘s Crosstime Saloon (post-Community Playthrough)\nLooking forward to: A Playwright’s Tale
I wasn’t surprised seeing the non-PC games drop. And the poor performance of Cognition imo was because it had a really strong group. Those 1-2 point votes just don’t push it enough. I loved the game and even I ended up giving it only 2 points if I recall right, in a worse group it would’ve surely gotten plenty of 3 and 5 point votes.
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I agree then, we should continue as it is. And in the next rounds a voting time frame should definitely be shorten, we’ll see a percentage of votes that will come in the last few day, but I suspect it will be less than 5%. I’m afraid we don’t lose a momentum.
If you want, Bogi, you can even speed up this round a little bit, without shortening the voting period for this round.
Your most recent proposed schedule for the R64 was this:
Day 1 - R64 brackets 1&2 open
Day 3 - R64 brackets 3&4 open
Day 5 - R64 brackets 5&6 open
Day 7 - R64 brackets 7&8 open - brackets 1&2 closed
Day 9 - R64 brackets 3&4 closed
Day 11 - R64 brackets 5&6 closed
Day 13 - R64 brackets 7&8 closed
But how about this?
Day 1 - R64 brackets 1&2 open
Day 3 - R64 brackets 3,4&5 open
Day 5 - R64 brackets 6,7&8 open
Day 7 - R64 brackets 1&2 closed
Day 9 - R64 brackets 3,4&5 closed
Day 11 - R64 brackets 6,7&8 closed
That means there will be a couple days (Days 5 and 6) where eight threads are open to vote in, which I know is what we were originally trying to avoid. But at least this time:
1) The activity in brackets 1&2 or 3,4,&5 may be tapering off by the time 6,7,&8 open, since you’ve staggered the threads.
2) All eight threads will be open simultaneously only for a couple days, unlike the group stage.
3) We would finish this round a couple days sooner. Not a huge gain, so I don’t know if it’s worth it, but it’s a thought if you want a quicker speed.
And yeah, despite being one of the procrastinating voters myself, I personally think a slightly shorter voting period would be fine for the future rounds. But I don’t mind either way.
That was just an idea I was toying with, where the games that participated get ranked based on their result in the knock-out stages. It’s something that’s often done in sports tournaments as well. The first four games are the winner, losing finalist, and the winner and loser of the third-place match. The fifth game would be the one that lost against the winner in the quarter finals, the sixth would be the one that lost against the losing finalist in the quarter finals, etc. until all are ranked.
There’s nothing official about ANY of this…
Ah, I see. That method of ranking sounds kind of arbitrary to me, for the reason I discussed before, but if you and Bogi want to do it, sure.
As for official vs. unofficial, I meant that any tournament results posted in the Tournament Overview thread are official, whereas when I made a spreadsheet sorting the group numbers a few different ways, that kind of thing is unofficial.
Thanks Caliburn for timing rearrangement proposal, I’ll do that.
Yes, Monkey Island had the first three games in the top 45 of the top 100, and all three made it through here (all won their group).
BUT…
Escape to Monkey Island isn’t in the competition, and while Tales of Monkey Island is, it didn’t make it through its group…
So that’s really only 60% for Monkey Island (or 75% if you don’t count Escape which didn’t get nominated), yet your gripe is that all 3 Monkey Island games are in there??? GaspWhy shouldn’t they be? They’re awesome!
Besides, if you want to compare: all three Gabriel Knight games are in the top 32 (!) of the top 100, and all three made it through here (with only GK3 not winning its group and that’s only because it was up against Day of the Tentacle). So that’s 100% for Gabriel. And nobody’s complaining because those games deserve to be in there.
As do the first three Monkey Island games… Wink
Of course they are three great games and they should be in a Top X ranking. What I meant was that I found it a bit much to have 3 Monkey Island games in the Top 10 that I compiled based on the amount of points.
As with your parallel to Gabriel Knight, that same top 10 featured 2 GK games and not 3.
So basically I agreed with the AG Top 100 in spreading the Monkey Island games a bit beyond just the top placements, if only for variety’s sake 
It doesn’t matter how early a game is eliminated, it is either good enough to go all the way and be declared:
Yes. Also, all other games will be removed from AdventureGamers and the site will be converted to a tribute shrine for the winning game. No discussion of any game other than the Best Game will be permitted on the forums. Anyone even thinking of discussing another game will be instantly and permanently banned, then hunted down by Timovieman who will make them play Best Game 12 times in a row.
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