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Old 12-27-2006, 09:14 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal View Post
It is absolutely valid to express dissatisfaction with a game, a demo, a series, or even the state of the genre in its proper place. Many MANY people do this, and realize that AG is indeed a very open, loosely moderated forum that welcomes differing perspectives.
QFT

In a nutshell, that was really what I was trying to say. I was just using the old vs. the new stuff for comparison. Then I um... (*cough*)... got a little side-tracked.

You should be able to critique any game or company that you want, or compare it to any other game or company, past or present.

Without opinions, forums would be pointless….
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Old 12-27-2006, 09:22 AM   #22
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Well, most people who make games for a living can endure criticism.
They'd better do anyway, you don't want to get too sentimental about your work, unless you work at some developer that has only killer successes on its pedigree.
Making games is a team process, so you can always accuse your colleagues of producing crap
I don't care if some forumites say my games are shit, well I care, but I grant them this right, as I want to have the same right about other games.
So I don't think the people who didn't develop this game should be too sensitive about it either.

I want to be able to say "King's quest story is shite compared to Infocom's games of the same period" without having to exhibit 23 formal proofs, witnesses and so on... then we can discuss it if somebody disagrees.
You can call me a troll if you wish.
Yes, sometimes you see overstatements over the place, but who cares, sincerely?
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Old 12-27-2006, 09:42 AM   #23
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So I don't think the people who didn't develop this game should be too sensitive about it either.
It's possible bymsitty's original complaint included such things, but from where I'm sitting, you're misunderstanding the nature of the problem. As I said, criticism is perfectly valid and welcomed in its proper place. Just to use an extremely basic example, in a thread about Myst 4:

Good: Myst 4 blows giant monkey balls because its puzzles are illogical and the hippie people were creepy.
Bad: How can anyone play Myst games? Myst isn't even an adventure.

The former is legitimate feedback entirely on topic. The latter is just coming to a pool party so you can piss in the pool.

Quote:
I want to be able to say "King's quest story is shite compared to Infocom's games of the same period" without having to exhibit 23 formal proofs, witnesses and so on... then we can discuss it if somebody disagrees.
You can call me a troll if you wish.
Yes, sometimes you see overstatements over the place, but who cares, sincerely?
None of this is really relevant. There's nothing wrong with comparing games to whatever you want. I think the point was that if all you EVER want to say is that games aren't as good as they used to be, at some point that stops becoming anything worth saying.
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Old 12-27-2006, 10:02 AM   #24
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Well I think just saying that something is crap (to use a 'nice' word) is pointless and doesn't add to the discussion. You at least have to give a reason why you state an extreme opinion like this. Of course you can say: "I don't like this game." But that's not the same as "This game is crap". And still, if you tell people here you don't like a particular game you can at least give one reason.
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Old 12-27-2006, 02:49 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal View Post
Again, I'll reiterate that I don't see this as being a huge problem at the moment. Far less, in fact, after some of the ugly, drawn-out affairs of a similar nature in the past. But we certainly do still have some people who do it occasionally, so let's at least be clear on the issue.
I'd just like to point out that I agree that such things happen, as should be evidenced by the second sentence I wrote in this very thread (specifically the "I recognize the pattern of behaviour" part). I just think that the opening post suggests they are way more common than they really are. Judging by the comments made here, I am not alone in this opinion.

However, the disagreement should not be mistaken for ignoring the feedback. Bysmitty, if you do want to follow up on this with more specifics in PM, feel free to write to me (or another mod(s) if you'd feel more comfortable to), and they will be examined on case-by-case basis. Of course, this appeal applies to everyone, always.
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Old 12-27-2006, 05:15 PM   #26
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I'd just like to point out that I agree that such things happen, as should be evidenced by the second sentence I wrote in this very thread (specifically the "I recognize the pattern of behaviour" part). I just think that the opening post suggests they are way more common than they really are. Judging by the comments made here, I am not alone in this opinion.
Um, yeah, that'd be why I specifically said I agreed with you. I'm just addressing the issue itself, since even that seemed to be getting misrepresented as the arguments began.
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Old 12-27-2006, 07:51 PM   #27
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AFGNCAAP - you asked me if I felt that it had escalated recently - No, I don't feel there have been any long-drawn out examples but it does still exist, on a steady plane and mostly by the same ones.

There are some discussions that I would welcome debate on, if done intelligently, and with respect to others opinions as prerequisites. We have many places where lines could be drawn in the sand, and debating be both informative and enjoyable. It would be good for the newbies to watch and/or participate in, to inform everyone about the progress or lack of, in adv gaming. Unfortunately, it quickly descends here into name-calling and put-downs of the people, the games and the genre. This is unfortunate, since we have so many interesting and intelligent young people here.

I have no problems with the mods - the ones who are the most instigative have been warned or banned, temporarily or permanently. Without truly being censoring, there isn't much more they can do. And I'm not looking for any censorship. Among the members, I'd like to see more maturity (unrelated to age), but relating to tolerance of others.

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Old 12-27-2006, 09:22 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Fairygdmther View Post
It is possible to state your opinion without putting anyone down. You can say "I think Syberia is highly over-rated because of this, this and this...". It is the way you say things that makes your posts offensive - for instance, your parting shot at me, "If you want an enviornment (sic) where everyone has the same thoughts then you are about 70 years late and in the wrong country." I don't even know what you're referring to, but it's obvious that it was aimed at me. At the beginning you say, "Everyone here is differant (sic) and everyone has differing opinions." But my opinion isn't valid since it differs from yours? You just shot yourself in the foot there.

FGM

First, I don't need to describe my feelings about these games in this thread. That whole aspect to the discussion was a slight stop on the way to the answer, spurred by the original post. When I make any statement you can rest assured I will give a reason as to why I feel that way.

Second, I am sorry for my closing statement. That tidbit was directed exclusively to the original poster. I use examples in my discussions and that example fit perfectly considering the nature of the original post.

Third, please don't put words in my mouth. I have never stated anyones opinion is not valid. Not in this thread nor any other. The first thing you learn in debating is to never discredit anothers opinion. The trick is to make them do it themselves. I was very successfull at this from grade school through college debate teams. If you can prove that I have ever discredited anyones view then I will gladly call you the winner and admit that I have "shot myself in the foot".

Lastly, you will have to parden my ignorance regarding the (sic) reference. I havn't a clue what it means. Well, I have a clue but I can't imagine anyone being this way in any thread like this.
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Old 12-27-2006, 09:46 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP View Post
Seconded. Incidentally, Captain, that's exactly this kind of thing, rather than stating your opinion, that brought you a temporary ban. Maybe you should review your posts in that thread again, complete with "Dont pull this chicken shit with me" and all.
In that thread, that response was to 3 people who raked me over the coals for having a differing view. In that post I quoted a person who basically called me an idiot. I supported my thoughts and that person didn't give one ounce of reason as to why I am an idiot. That bothered me. The others yelped at me because "negative thoughts like mine are ruining the perception of the industry". I am sorry, but this is not a reason to not be a lemming and agree with everything that is put out. I feel that this causes the industry to continue to put out anything to apease the easily satisfied, which gets bad reviews, which kills the industry faster. All for an easy buck.

In regards to the banning, I felt it wasn't justified. If you were to ban me for just that then I would not have a problem. I was issued a warning to refrain for being argumenative, then I was banned for a post I had already made in the thread the day before the warning. So apparently someone didn't like what I had to say and went ahead and reported all my posts in the thread which caused the mod team to take action without looking into the matter. Basically I was banned without a warning, without there ever been a precident set. How was I to all of a sudden be punished for something that I have seen on a daily basis for all of the years I have been here. It is like in the bible where Paul told fathers to not be irritating there children. This is how I applied that principal.

I feel like there is a core of people here that attack me or anyone with a contrary opinion to the norm. I get offended when I have years of what I feel to quality contribution to the forum and I get slammed by the same people. Now I see the opening post and I feel personally offended as one who is vocal in this way. The wording of the opening post left much to be desired in terms of tact. I simply don't understand how anyone can have these opinions on a message board where people are encouraged to express their feelings on a subject.
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Old 12-27-2006, 11:36 PM   #30
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Some people may feel that negative criticism may make some companies close their doors. Well, if that’s the case, good riddance to them! Good companies, with strong commitment will take the criticisms in hand and strive to improve!
This is my last answer directly to you since half of the problem with heated threads is the OnevsOne debate. You have your opinions, I have mine. One last comment thank god most of the times companies don't listen to (hardcore) fans because that would be disastrous.
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Old 12-28-2006, 03:26 AM   #31
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Captain Blondebeard, nobody in that thread attacked you for having a differing view. No one yelped at you because "negative thoughts like yours are ruining the perception of the industry". Whether you are lying to gain sympathy or you actually believe it yourself I don't know, but you are pulling those things out of thin air (the thread in question is there to see for everybody). Which is ironically what people criticised you for back then to begin with. After which, rather than admitting your mistake you decided to defend your ignorance on the grounds that you were too busy with your job and family to actually check the facts before debating them - and to be flat-out rude towards one of the posters at that.

Drop this subject.
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Old 12-28-2006, 07:05 AM   #32
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Default Customer feedback is a must!

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thank god most of the times companies don't listen to (hardcore) fans because that would be disastrous.
I’m sorry, but I think all companies do listen to fans, hardcore or otherwise. They even let their fans beta test their products for opinions. Now, they may not listen to every complaint, but if enough people point out a certain flaw you can be sure that it will get fixed. The problem with adventure games is that the problem is often in the story/ dialogue or puzzle design, which cannot be fixed but can be taken into account for the next game.

If you’ve ever read an interview with a designer concerning a sequel, they always talk about what the fans liked or didn’t like in the first game, then try to improve upon it.

All companies, not just gaming companies, care about what the consumer wants. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t last long in the business. Companies that rate high in customer satisfaction sell a lot of product.

So people shouldn’t be afraid to voice their opinions on this forum, another forum, or directly to the company in guestion. However the critique should be well thought out and not just an angry bomb-blast flame.
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Old 12-28-2006, 10:52 AM   #33
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Quote:
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Second, I am sorry for my closing statement. That tidbit was directed exclusively to the original poster. I use examples in my discussions and that example fit perfectly considering the nature of the original post.

Third, please don't put words in my mouth. I have never stated anyones opinion is not valid. Not in this thread nor any other. The first thing you learn in debating is to never discredit anothers opinion. The trick is to make them do it themselves. I was very successfull at this from grade school through college debate teams. If you can prove that I have ever discredited anyones view then I will gladly call you the winner and admit that I have "shot myself in the foot".

Lastly, you will have to parden my ignorance regarding the (sic) reference. I havn't a clue what it means. Well, I have a clue but I can't imagine anyone being this way in any thread like this.
1. Your parting shot is what negated what you said about others' opinion, whether it was to me or someone else - it says you don't value other's opinions.

2. (sic) is the proper way to quote someone who has an error that you don't want to change, to avoid a misquote. It just says that it's the quote which has the misspelling, not the person referring to the quote. If it's someone I know well, I'll just correct the spelling, but for someone I don't know well, I use the more proper form.

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Old 12-28-2006, 08:08 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP View Post
Captain Blondebeard, nobody in that thread attacked you for having a differing view. No one yelped at you because "negative thoughts like yours are ruining the perception of the industry". Whether you are lying to gain sympathy or you actually believe it yourself I don't know, but you are pulling those things out of thin air (the thread in question is there to see for everybody). Which is ironically what people criticised you for back then to begin with. After which, rather than admitting your mistake you decided to defend your ignorance on the grounds that you were too busy with your job and family to actually check the facts before debating them - and to be flat-out rude towards one of the posters at that.

Drop this subject.
This is the post I responded to:

<<Does everything need to be in colours and shapes for people to understand ?

Telltale needs to break out some hand puppets explaining season 1>>

That is worse than calling me an idiot. That is referring to me as either retarted or a child. Sure I didnt have the facts but he could have followed the others suit and proven me wrong. That is the same guy who slammed myself and other with similiar posts just prior to that thread. I responded about being a busy person because some people act as if we should live and die with every news bit that comes out regarding games.

By the way, bad taste to call anyone a liar.
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Old 12-28-2006, 08:16 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Captain Blondebeard View Post
This is the post I responded to:

<<Does everything need to be in colours and shapes for people to understand ?

Telltale needs to break out some hand puppets explaining season 1>>

That is worse than calling me an idiot. That is referring to me as either retarted or a child. Sure I didnt have the facts but he could have followed the others suit and proven me wrong. That is the same guy who slammed myself and other with similiar posts just prior to that thread. I responded about being a busy person because some people act as if we should live and die with every news bit that comes out regarding games.

By the way, bad taste to call anyone a liar.

Can someone tell me why this post recieved an infraction? This is getting sad.
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Old 12-28-2006, 08:18 PM   #36
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Because one of our mods asked you to stop trying to pick a fight. And here you are, still trying to do it, just like in the thread you're defending your own behaviour in.
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