Please kick the trolls.
 

The trolling in these forums is atrocious, is getting worse, and it is causing me to spend less and less time here. Especially in the Adventure Game Discussion forum, there are a number of members who do nothing but crap on every game in every thread. It is one thing to state an opinion, but to continually bash every game, developer, story, character, etc is simply not called for. There is something wrong when you have to wonder what games they actually do like. These are people where you question why they even bother posting in an adventure game forum if they don't seem to like any adventure games. I'm sure that the mods are already aware of the members that I am referring to but if there is any confusion, I am willing to give them names and examples via PM. I know these forums are loosely modded but it is this loose modding style that is letting the Trolls take over. If it were up to me, the worst offenders would get the boot immediately and the lesser ones one final warning. Of course it is not up to me hence this post and plea. Please kick the trolls before I, and the others who are disgruntled by them, stop posting here entirely.

Thank you,
...bysmitty

This trend has gone on the AG forums for a long time now. I've been lurking here forever and know a lot of people who have left the forums altogether. Some of them probably did so because of what bysmitty referred to. I wouldn't call most of the negative people trolls though. Many of them clearly are knowledgeable about adventure games and at one point, actually enjoyed playing them. Their constant criticisms of various recent adventure games and the developers who made them can be exhausting and exasperating but since they do have a point to make most of the times, they should not be called trolls or be kicked out in my opinion. I actually think that the negative trend has actually gotten better recently.

I still do wish every veteran members of the forum be more encouraging and positive. When someone, especially a newbie, makes a post on the forums and say that they tried a recent adventure game (let's say Runaway2) and they liked it a lot, instead of jumping down on his/her throat and claim that they don't know what they are talking about because the game sucks and he/she should play Monkey Island instead, why not be more encouraging? Why not suggest that they should try the Bone or new Sam and Max games or Ankh if they liked Runaway. Why not try to be more supportive and positive for a change instead of crapping on the games and the developers all the time? Constructive criticism is great and welcomed by everyone but a wholesale attack on the genre without even trying out some of the games seem unwarranted. This is all IMO of course.

Guys, it's Christmas... :pan:
Actually, I have no idea who and what you are talking about. I mean, sure, I recognize the pattern of behaviour you are describing, but I don't recall many examples of it recently. And certainly didn't notice it getting worse.

Regardless, if you had been observing what seemed to you as an uncontrolled trolling (of this kind you described, or any other), it's a shame you didn't PM the mods first, rather than start this thread and only then offer to give specific examples in private. Not every "handsmacking" is done publically, so perhaps you'll find out some of the perceived trolls were dealt with in some way.

There is also the handy "report bad post" button most people seem to be afraid to use for some reason.
I agree with all of this, except I do think that being critical towards recent games is occasionally taken to the extreme where it deserves to be called trolling. But saying that there is a substantial number of people who do it continuously, is a gross overstatement.

Did you pick Runaway 2 at random, or are you referring to the recent Runaway 2 thread? Because that's totally not what happened there (and again, that's not something I think generally happens a lot).

I don't mind criticism if it is based on the game in question, but the comments like, "there hasn't been a good adv game in years" and "all TAC (the Adventure Company) games suck". Each game has had hundreds or thousands of hours put into the making, please give a bit of respect to all that work, and give it a try. If you want to say "I don't like 1st person, 2D slide show games", that's fine, but that doesn't mean it's crap - it just means it's not the kind you prefer.

I agree with the comments about not shooting down newbies for their enthusiasm - do encourage them - in keeping the genre alive, their money is just as good as yours is. Guide them to better games of the kind they come in raving about, without putting them, the game, or the genre, down. Our first games are always favorites, even if later on we recognize that they may not be the best thing since vanilla ice cream.

Putting newbies and new games down may look cool, and sophisticated, but it isn't at all - it comes off looking like you're foul-tempered and cruel - and not a bit friendly. Be a bit more tolerant and it becomes better here for everyone.

FGM

Some of what I see in these forums has been happening over at the humor website I work at as well. Namely, a topic is started, a conversation's in full swing, then someone tries to disrupt that. I think it happens for two reasons, mainly--firstly, because this is the internet folks, and people like to argue and debate 'til the cows come home; but also (and no disrespect intended to AGers) because many of the things we older gamers talk about seem unfathomable to many of the newer members. For example, my friend Ashley was watching me play one of the Space Quest games recently. To her, it was horrifying..."Pixellated images?? TYPING interface??? Replaying an OLD game you've already played?!?"

To a lot of the newer gamers, we seem like an odd bunch. We don't always get as excited about state-of-the-art graphics as we do over a good story. Heck, my nephews NEVER watch a cutscene unless I force them to; they're content to press buttons to skip over those "annoying talking scenes" to get back to the action faster. Sadly, I don't see this kind of thing going away anytime soon. But I hope that doesn't stop the well-meaning forumites from coming here, because the good ones still outnumber the bad, IMHO.

So true. It happens all the time, if I watch someone else I know play a game they just press the button to skip any kind of cutscene.

What is wrong with stating this? Everyone here is differant and everyone has differing opinions. That is what a message board is all about. If you can't handle a thread that is not one sided then I recomend you stop reading it or don't contribute to it. Most people who play adventure games are smart people who enjoy a good debate.

I for one can't stand most of the new games that have come out recently. I think TLJ, Siberia and most of those types are not what they are cracked up to be. Unfortunately too many people are satisfied with a poor game simply because they dont get too many chances to play adventures.

Whenever I say that the new games are crummy I am the one who gets harrassed in a pretty harsh manner. I got a temporary ban because I stated these very points in a thread. Tobacco told me I was setting a negative tone on the forums. In a thread with 4 attacks at me I am the one who was punished because someone reported my posts in the thread for being argumentative.

I read these forums for the old games and a few of the new ones like Runaway, BS4, and A Vampyre Story. If you want an enviornment where everyone has the same thoughts then you are about 70 years late and in the wrong country.

Just food for thought:P

It is possible to state your opinion without putting anyone down. You can say "I think Syberia is highly over-rated because of this, this and this...". It is the way you say things that makes your posts offensive - for instance, your parting shot at me, "If you want an enviornment (sic) where everyone has the same thoughts then you are about 70 years late and in the wrong country." I don't even know what you're referring to, but it's obvious that it was aimed at me. At the beginning you say, "Everyone here is differant (sic) and everyone has differing opinions." But my opinion isn't valid since it differs from yours? You just shot yourself in the foot there.

FGM

I agree
 

QFT

In my opinion most of the AG's being released now-a-days are poor to mediocre. A game like Dreamfall comes out and everyone hails it as great, but while it was technically sound and pleasing to the eye it was also as dull as a doornail.

It may be fair to say that many of these games are made in Europe and lose some pizzazz when ported to English, but an excuse is not an argument.

Now maybe, back in the early days, our expectations were lower and we were easier to please. We were wowed by it in the same way that TV wowed the 1950’s generation. However, TV kept up with the times, with many shows being as good or better than they were back then. Sadly AG has not.

Quality is important and, many times, the care isn't there. Pixel hunting is one case in point. Say what you want about the old LA games but you never had to pixel hunt.

Mostly though, it's the story that lags. The smaller companies that make these adventure games lack the budget to hire the best talent. Since adventure games are all about the story a monotonous dialog can kill the game.

I don't think it's unfair to say most of the new games aren't as good. I think many of us are so starved for AG we'll gratefully gobble up whatever’s given to us.

I don't care how many man-hours went into making it. The same could be said about any movie or book. You don't have to like it, or even respect it, just because a lot of time was spent making it. Bad art is bad art.

Last but not least, some companies do produce nothing but crap! They push out games that look dated, with poor story lines, and bugs up the wazoo. If someone wants to point that out, why shouldn't they be allowed?

I have no problem with criticising a game for poor voice acting, lousy graphics or whatever. I have a problem when all the games from one publisher - not developer, but publisher get tarred with the same brush. The gaming industry hasn't had the time to evolve like the movies or TV. We've very quickly gone from individuality to mass production, and sequel saturation. There aren't any brakes on this when the publishers hold the purse-strings. They aren't looking for creativity or art, they only see the bottom line.

Never-the-less, some good games are being produced. The blanket statements hurt all of us. Publishers see this and say, why are we bothering? Let's get out of ADV gaming altogether. Let's concentrate on another blockbuster FPS. In many ways, it is the newbie who holds up this genre, perhaps out of ignorance, but coughs up the bucks to keep it afloat.

All I'm saying here is, stop trashing newbies, or the games they come in raving about. Teach them what they need to know to be able to judge better. Teach them what are the important things to look for and what to avoid. Do you hate 1st person slide show graphics? Show them why and what's better. Don't just say that they suck. It isn't always what you say or what your opinion is, but rather, how you present it to others. Maybe you got to ADV games before they did. So what? You weren't born with a mouse in your hand any more than they were. It's possible to express your opinion, whatever it may be, without coming off like a cynical snob, who's living the the gaming past. (and I don't mean you here, but for many it is true.)

This thread was not about censoring opinions, but about reducing negativity. Say whatever you feel, but say it without anyone getting hurt in the process, and without the meaningless blanket statements. If you really hate something, then back it up with examples, not trash talk.

FGM

Seconded. Incidentally, Captain, that's exactly this kind of thing, rather than stating your opinion, that brought you a temporary ban. Maybe you should review your posts in that thread again, complete with "Dont pull this chicken shit with me" and all.

Still, I don't see this talk about trolls as particularly grounded in the Forums' reality. This thread has started with a claim that the trolling here is atrocious, and getting worse, and that the mods are too tolerant of it. As much as I agree with your general sentiments, FGM, are you also of that opinion, or are we just debating on theoretical level? Because if the latter, this discussion really belongs in Chit Chat (or Adventure, if we want, like sodapop, to concentrate on comparing the new games to the old ones rather than people's attitudes).

Enough of this crap nostalgia thing, I’ve been there too, I’ve played the same games but I’ve grown up and some of them just don’t seem so appealing any more if you look back at them. Sierra was the Mac Donald’s of adventure gaming, releasing game after game based on the same engine not alike what FPS companies are doing. Not to mention the Larry series… True some of the games were innovative but most of them were just cash cows no better than cash in movie sequences.

Lucas was better, they had a more artistic approach and to cut the long story short their games suit me better but still I can’t see why a game like The Secret of Monkey Island has a better story than Dreamfall. The Secret of Monkey Island is just a comic strip with sharp writing, lots of laughs and light on the brain. Dreamfall is a complex beast that due to it's complexity looses the plot a bit (well kinda monstrous bit) but its way deeper and bigger than any of the old dayz adventures.

Why everyone attacks Dreamfall? Time passes and passes quickly, the Infocom days are dead, the glorious days of the 90s are long over and things (un)fortunately change, get over it. If you don’t want to get over it, retire, like the Williams’ did. If there is a game that drew some attention in the industry about adventure games (yes it is a damn adventure) is Dreamfall plus the Sam n’ Max series. But still the adventure community treats it like a disease… because poor old April acts like a bitch. Way to go girl, open the way for those dreamers than just landed on the reality fence.

Yes today the funding is limited, yes today most adventures are not AAA titles like the Lucas Arts and Sierra adventures were but ranting and trolling and killing every ambitious game before you get to play with it makes the whole thing worse.

What's wrong with that? The past was, in many ways, a lot better than the present when it comes to adventure gaming.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the story in SOMI is as deep or rich as that of Dreamfall. That doesn't mean it can't be told as well, or even better. Storywise, Dreamfall may be more ambitious, but it also gets a lot more things wrong, IMO. However, the real problem with Dreamfall is that the gameplay is some kind of sadistic punishment for wanting to experience the story.

I will concede that my use of the word 'troll' might have been a bit too harsh for what I am trying to describe. Yes, it is the rampant negativity that I am taking issue with. Still, I do think that the negativity and tone from certain individuals has gotten worse with time and it is keeping me from spending more than 5 minutes in the adventure forums at a time.

I posted this thread here to see what other forum members thought on the subject. I didn’t mean to come across as combative towards the mods, I just wanted to voice my frustration.

...bysmitty

Interesting that you should exhibit exactly the sort of posting that brought this thread about in the first place.

"Enough of this crap nostalgia thing" and "get over it" are both unnecessary confrontational without a place in a reasoned argument. Also saying "I've grown up" (therefore implying others haven't) is extremely insulting.

You make a sweeping statement about Sierra games but don't specify what you think is OK and what not (excepting a brief mention of Larry). It's hard to mount a reasoned defense when it's so unclear what you're attacking. Maybe you've actually got limited Sierra experience and have just been unlucky with the games you played but we've no way of knowing. Even more confusing you refer to Sierra games as AAA adventures in your final paragraph. Which best represents your view? Shameless cash-ins or AAA adventures?

You describe Secret of Monkey Island as a comic strip without explaining why (and confusingly saying it was sharply written at the same time) You then go on to say Dreamfall's plot is great despite admitting it has terrible plot flaws. On what basis are you saying a sharply written light plot is better than a poorly written complex plot? I haven't played Dreamfall so I can't comment on it myself.

Overall you're just plain confusing as well. You claim Dreamfall is better than the old stuff and then talk about "the glorious days of the 90s" and ".AAA titles like the Lucas Arts and Sierra adventures" What are you really trying to say?

As for the original subject, I do appreciate why bysmitty raised it in the first place. However, I trust the mods to keep an eye out for this sort of thing but they can't be everywhere. Maybe we should all be a bit more prepared to hit the "Report Post" button when vigorous argument tips over into abuse.

True enough :)

After all these years exchanging ideas and thoughts offline and online I've drawn the conclusion that gameplay means different things to different people. Personally I enjoyed Dreamfall. I really want to replay it but right now Oblivion sucks all my free time. In Dreamfall, I liked the easy puzzles because the pace was excellent. I loved the 3D console controls because I could get away from the damn mouse and keyboard and relax on my bed with my gamepad.

I enjoyed every minute of that game because it was exactly what I expected, a modern game away of the hardcore point & clickness that has haunted this genre for many-many years. It had issues yes like the terrible fighting or the well-known vegetable sequences press button-cutscene-press button etc. but overall I liked it. It was fresh air. Still nothing is perfect and some people didn't like it. But not liking something and sharing your thoughts about it (like you said "I felt I was being punished for wanting to experience the story") is totally different than the "holly war" TLJ fans declared on gaming forums.

I am trying to say that people who experienced the golden years of adventurism should just stop commenting negatively every adventure that gets released. It is clear that they do not like the genre any more and should let go. They have lost interest but they afraid to cut the line because emotionally are very attached to the genre. I am mean, look at the mess, some are still comparing today’s games with the 90s Sierra and Lucas Arts ones. You think this is healthy? Do FPS fans compare FEAR, Far Cry, Half Life 2 with DOOM 2? No, because they are moving and changing. But in the adventure gaming sphere we are stuck in a time warp, every game is compared to the holy grails of the past. Not healthy. We need to open our minds to new things, different things. We need to cut the emotional bond with the past.

Regarding your arguments

1. AAA titles and cash-ins aren't contradictory. Doom III is AAA title but is a cash-in too, in one way or another. Sierra games back then were always of high production values. Don't confuse production values with how good a game is.

2. When I used the phrase "I've grown up" I was referring to me and more generally to the people that back then were playing these games. All of us now have at least 15 years more on our backs (that doesn’t make us better than new gamers). I didn't use it as an insult to anyone. You took it that way.

3. Games constantly get better so despite the 90s being the peak point of adventuring today’s games are in some ways better due to the advancement of technology and producing tools.

4. Dreamfall was trying to create an experience much richer than TSOM but it failed at certain things. As I see it, I would give my sympathy and love to an athlete who would try to break the world record but failed and was cancelled than one who would play safe. I like people that aim high. I love them more when they fail.

PS: Excuse me for raising my voice but if I read another post on how good the old days were and how bad today's games are I will autoban (any kraftwerk fans?) myself

I always like to come here because I think people are civilized here. Maybe I have a thick skin, but there seems to be no need for a complicated moderation system like slashdot or digg need (warning: those are nerd-sites, not adventures sites). Of course occasionally you stumble upon people calling each other names, or bad language, but in my opinion the vast majority of people who post regularly in these forums are nice and civilised.

Nah
 

I believe that this is the sort of thing that starts problems, and gets the threads heated. I didn’t post a quote, and I didn’t attack anyone personally. I simply posted my opinion in opposition to others.

Yes, you did mean it as an insult. You were inferring that you’ve grown up while I have haven’t.

Now, I don’t know about you, but I was in my thirties when most of those old games game out. I was already a grown man with a grown-up perspective on games.


Cash cows aren’t cash cows unless people thoroughly enjoy them. LSL was a hoot! A laugh out loud experience from beginning to end.

In AG it’s the story and dialogue that matters, not the engine.

I think that you made my point for me here. Nothing more to say.

Actually, yes they do. FEAR, Far Cry and Half Life 2 are superior to Doom, and that’s my point. FPS have gotten better. AG not so much.

The important thing about FPS is the tech that goes into it, but with AG it’s the story. The stories are what's lacking here.

I’m NOT going to leave the genre. Williams left because the genre was no longer lucrative enough for her.

Me? I still like it. I posted that most games weren’t as good. I never posted that they all weren’t. I loved Still Life. So why should I leave it? If you don’t like hearing other peoples opinions maybe you should leave this forum…

Look, part of my point is that as long as people aren’t being overly rude or calling each other names, they should be able to post their opinions on any game or company that they want. This is a forum, after all, and debate is part of what forums are about.

Some people may feel that negative criticism may make some companies close their doors. Well, if that’s the case, good riddance to them! Good companies, with strong commitment will take the criticisms in hand and strive to improve!

While I actually agree with AFGNCAAP that the problem is not overly prevalent at the moment, I will take a moment to clarify the issue to prevent further strawman arguments and the inevitable hostility which has already begun.

The problem (when it occurs) is not expressing negativity but escalating negativity. Those that do the latter always try to hide behind an argument of the former, but they are NOT the same things.

It is absolutely valid to express dissatisfaction with a game, a demo, a series, or even the state of the genre in its proper place. Many MANY people do this, and realize that AG is indeed a very open, loosely moderated forum that welcomes differing perspectives.

What is NOT appropriate is using any and all given platforms (threads) to expound one's own agenda of negativity that goes beyond the topic being discussed. It's not about stating your opinions. If you actually HAD an informed opinion about the subject at hand, you'd probably give it and leave it at that. No, it's about hijacking threads to cram personal agendas down people's throats.

What is even LESS acceptable is becoming condescending towards your fellow forumites who don't fully agree with that personal agenda, or those who dare to point out that you've derailed the original topic just to do it.

Again, I'll reiterate that I don't see this as being a huge problem at the moment. Far less, in fact, after some of the ugly, drawn-out affairs of a similar nature in the past. But we certainly do still have some people who do it occasionally, so let's at least be clear on the issue.