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Old 05-02-2010, 03:15 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens View Post
Actually, with due respect, you do sound snobbish. Do you mean to say that you're basing "the masses'" perceived lack of appreciation for what makes adventure games worth looking at on a couple of guys you overheard on a train? You might be surprised to learn that many people who love various kinds of games are substantial types of people - i.e. well educated, cultured, affluent, etc. Not necessarily Einsteins, but smart and informed enough that they can make their own choices on what kind of game they want to play.

If I may be so anecdotal about it, I have a fine arts degree and enjoy many kinds of games, including adventure games. My niece, who is 16 and is already taking college level classes alongside her high school curriculum (she plans on becoming a forensic scientist), loved playing Nancy Drew and CSI on her PC; today she loves games like Left 4 Dead and Dragon Age (yep, I introduced her to all those games).

Naturally, many others like me and my niece are out there, choosing good games and never limiting themselves to just one kind of game.

So what if what we want to appreciate in a game is merely how beautiful it looks and how many hidden things we can find? We can easily play adventure games and then turn around and play Fable II and not be considered by you or others here as "the masses" that are unfit to play adventures.

As I had originally written in a long editorial about it, not only should traditional adventure games stay traditional, but developers should also continue to improve them, refine them, and make each successive one better and better. And they would still be the adventure game you love.

But, it's also good - and necessary - to diversify and be innovative here and there because it introduces new and exciting ways to experience story and challenge!

Your reasoning is weak and perhaps a bit knee-jerk. Innovation is still possible while maintaining a level of quality. Advanced technology like real time 3D, artificial intelligence, and motion sensitive interface can enhance the experience without sacrificing the challenges of puzzle solving and story.

And startlingly modern games like Heavy Rain can and do exist alongside a traditional game like the upcoming Gray Matter, and that's because THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A MARKET FOR BOTH TYPES OF ADVENTURE GAME.

In short, I honestly don't know what you're complaining about and why.
Damn! I know I shouldn't ve used the words "the masses" it's like the most snobbish word out there but you hear it so much these days. 'movies for the masses, music for the masses' so I thaught 'why not games for the masses?'
Anyways poor choice of words. Now to get to your point. First of all I'm not basing my entire point on a single encounter I had. When I say 'for example' that's exactly what I mean. It's an example to illustrate my point.

Also I know there are lots of well educated and cultured gamers out there, only problem is they're not in the majority. When I stand in a videostore, wich is where the popular games are sold, the only people I see buying these games are the exact same kind as the two guys I earlier described. And too refer back to that small event: The question I aksed was do we want people to talk about AGs that way? That's a question not a statement. You say yes, okay that's fine. But let me just say if I were the person who designed that game I'd be sorely dissapointed seeing all my work of coming up with a good story and fine puzzles vanish into thin air.

I'm not saying that making games like Heavy Rain is impossible. I haven't played Heavy Rain(kinda hard without a PS3) but I have played Dreamfall and immensely enjoyed it (I remember calling it the best game ever made) so yes absolutely these games should and will be made I just hope they won't stand in the way of the smaller more traditional AGs. Obviously you seem to think not. I hope you're right. I really do

Finally to make it a bit more personal I might have the wrong idea of (let's stick to that awful word) "the masses" as I'm living in a very small town and before that have lived in large city but in a really bad neighbourhood. In fact in our country it's considered a ghetto. So maybe I've just meet the wrong kind of gamers thus far.
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Old 05-02-2010, 03:39 PM   #22
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Damn! I know I shouldn't ve used the words "the masses" it's like the most snobbish word out there but you hear it so much these days. 'movies for the masses, music for the masses' so I thaught 'why not games for the masses?'
Anyways poor choice of words.
I suspected as much.

Quote:
The question I aksed was do we want people to talk about AGs that way? That's a question not a statement. You say yes, okay that's fine. But let me just say if I were the person who designed that game I'd be sorely dissapointed seeing all my work of coming up with a good story and fine puzzles vanish into thin air.
I don't know if assigning blame over that, as some people have done, solves anything. As far as I know games that involve things like exploration and discovery and story have been marketed as adventure games since the early 90s. Tomb Raider was categorized as an adventure game, and that title was released in 1996. You could say that what those two guys on the train were discussing was not the kind of adventure game you yourself would play, but in many people's minds that game still qualifies as an adventure game.

So who's right about it? The traditionalists who play only point-&-clickers? Publishers like Eidos that market Tomb Raider as an adventure game? Current games like Uncharted that are also marketed as an adventure game? Is there actually a much more inclusive definition of "adventure game" that some people vehemently oppose? Inclusive in that it can also be about action alongside puzzle solving?

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I'm not saying that making games like Heavy Rain is impossible. I haven't played Heavy Rain(kinda hard without a PS3) but I have played Dreamfall and immensely enjoyed it (I remember calling it the best game ever made) so yes absolutely these games should and will be made I just hope they won't stand in the way of the smaller more traditional AGs. Obviously you seem to think not. I hope you're right. I really do
LOL! Do you realize we've been having the exact same conversation as we did five years ago? Ten years ago?

You know, when I wrote The Cold Hotspot five years ago there was a controversy going on about the direction that the adventure game genre might have been taking. With real time 3D games like Broken Sword: The Sleeping Dragon and other similar titles there was a quite a heated discussion here at AG and at other adventure game sites. Some of us were freaking out or just outright furious that our "beloved" 2D genre may be killed off in favour of 3D graphics and - *GASP* - dumbed down action sequences!!!

Well, fast forward to 2010. What do you see? Look at the AG main page and tell me if none of the recent and upcoming games featured in reviews and previews are in traditional 2D point-&-click.

The same thing happened over 10 years ago with the advent of Gabriel Knight 3, which as we know was in real time 3D. People were freaking out and screaming bloody murder back then, too, that their genre was gonna be bulldozed by 3D and - *GASP* - dumbed down action sequences!!! Did anything happen that even remotely resembled that? (eventually The Longest Journey supplanted Gabriel Knight 3 as "The Next Great Adventure Game" and many traditionalists celebrated this because TLJ wasn't in 3D; LOL!)

In fact, there were others who also stated what you stated: "I hope you're right. I really do."

In other words, essentially nothing has changed. That's why I stated that I honestly don't know what you're complaining about and why.

Quote:
Finally to make it a bit more personal I might have the wrong idea of (let's stick to that awful word) "the masses" as I'm living in a very small town and before that have lived in large city but in a really bad neighbourhood. In fact in our country it's considered a ghetto. So maybe I've just meet the wrong kind of gamers thus far.
Well, let's just say you hadn't yet met a very large section of gamers and realized that they love playing a variety of game types. In fact, many of us here at AG also play RPGs, first person shooters, strategy games, racing games, side scrollers, etc.
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Old 05-02-2010, 03:45 PM   #23
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Damn! I know I shouldn't ve used the words "the masses" it's like the most snobbish word out there but you hear it so much these days. 'movies for the masses, music for the masses' so I thaught 'why not games for the masses?'
Anyways poor choice of words. Now to get to your point. First of all I'm not basing my entire point on a single encounter I had. When I say 'for example' that's exactly what I mean. It's an example to illustrate my point.

Also I know there are lots of well educated and cultured gamers out there, only problem is they're not in the majority. When I stand in a videostore, wich is where the popular games are sold, the only people I see buying these games are the exact same kind as the two guys I earlier described.
I have a friend, a very good friend. He plays only Tomb Raider, because he likes Lara's a$$ and Quake 3 deathmatches. He doesn't touch modern shooters because they have storylines and storylines bore him, he watches movies for that.

There are many things I would call him but stupid is not one of them, he holds a PhD in theoretical physics from Cambridge, held various postdoctoral positions at quite prestigious places and recently he got his assistant professorship at a quite well known University.

Adventure games do not, even remotely, pose intellectual challenges, they're just computer games. Why do you assume that people who play them do so for the intellectual challenge and people who don't are mainly uneducated?
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Old 05-02-2010, 03:48 PM   #24
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Damn! I know I shouldn't ve used the words "the masses" it's like the most snobbish word out there but you hear it so much these days. 'movies for the masses, music for the masses' so I thaught 'why not games for the masses?'
Anyways poor choice of words. Now to get to your point. First of all I'm not basing my entire point on a single encounter I had. When I say 'for example' that's exactly what I mean. It's an example to illustrate my point.

Also I know there are lots of well educated and cultured gamers out there, only problem is they're not in the majority. When I stand in a videostore, wich is where the popular games are sold, the only people I see buying these games are the exact same kind as the two guys I earlier described. And too refer back to that small event: The question I aksed was do we want people to talk about AGs that way? That's a question not a statement. You say yes, okay that's fine. But let me just say if I were the person who designed that game I'd be sorely dissapointed seeing all my work of coming up with a good story and fine puzzles vanish into thin air.

I'm not saying that making games like Heavy Rain is impossible. I haven't played Heavy Rain(kinda hard without a PS3) but I have played Dreamfall and immensely enjoyed it (I remember calling it the best game ever made) so yes absolutely these games should and will be made I just hope they won't stand in the way of the smaller more traditional AGs. Obviously you seem to think not. I hope you're right. I really do

Finally to make it a bit more personal I might have the wrong idea of (let's stick to that awful word) "the masses" as I'm living in a very small town and before that have lived in large city but in a really bad neighbourhood. In fact in our country it's considered a ghetto. So maybe I've just meet the wrong kind of gamers thus far.
Don't worry about the response you got. I agree with your original post 100%. Other people just like to play pretend though, when they examine the masses.

How many of the masses read intelligent books, play intelligent Euro boardgames, or anything involving thinking?

I find that the adventure genre has a ton more heart and soul now than in the coveted and rosecolored view of the 90s that most people have.

Cater to the masses and you get casual games. Not what I am interested in.
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Old 05-02-2010, 03:58 PM   #25
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I have a friend, a very good friend. He plays only Tomb Raider, because he likes Lara's a$$ and Quake 3 deathmatches. He doesn't touch modern shooters because they have storylines and storylines bore him, he watches movies for that.

There are many things I would call him but stupid is not one of them, he holds a PhD in theoretical physics from Cambridge, held various postdoctoral positions at quite prestigious places and recently he got his assistant professorship at a quite well known University.

Adventure games do not, even remotely, pose intellectual challenges, they're just computer games. Why do you assume that people who play them do so for the intellectual challenge and people who don't are mainly uneducated?
Good point. Myst, RHEM, Dark Fall... these all pose no challenges...
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Old 05-02-2010, 04:04 PM   #26
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Good point. Myst, RHEM, Dark Fall... these all pose no challenges...
Played only Myst, found it very boring but anything with a first person view bores me to death, even HL 2. Myst hard? I wouldn't say so, the only hard time I recall was keeping my eyes open.

Completing a video game, which thousands of others have comteted/will complete, is an intellectual challenge? Hardly so.
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Old 05-02-2010, 04:24 PM   #27
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Wow, didn't expect to see 22 replies! Very interesting points being made, though there's some straying into the what adventures should be, 2D 3D arguments, all that jazz and I know it's part of how adventures will evolve, but it's not what I meant to bring up. Besides, those arguments have been made already.

My point is not that adventures are entering the 'mainstream'. What people have said about mainstream audiences and adventures is true - particluarly comments on reviews related to adventures and their not so positive light on them. I'm not too concerned with that, the adventure genre doesn't need to be competing with God of War or Call of Duty to be considered to be rising in popularity (though that being said, I wouldn't protest to high-budget, great looking adventure games trying to innovate the genre appearing in such a manner).

What I think is great is exactly what Jacques commented on, and that's the rising popularity in adventures as well as the increasing number of smaller developers that are creating something exciting and interesting and are getting noticed. Amanita Design have talked about the range of people they get contacting them, from people as young as 4 to those as old as 80. On top of that, people in places you would never consider even try adventures are beginning to discuss titles like Machinarium and Whispered World as 'beautiful', 'interesting' and 'exciting'. Mainstream or not, I think these games are getting a wide appeal, and because they are in digital distribution selling at low costs as someone mentioned they are succeeding quite well considering their size as developers. That's the great thing about digital distribution, is that small developers don't need to compete with the big titles because they are their own thing now.

I'm not suggesting by saying they are on the rise that they are at their most popular point now, I just mean that it's exciting to see that the popularity and attention is growing right now. I hope it does lead to even more great freeware developers like Jacques mentioned so that more original thinkers can be found out and supported. Isn't that how people like Jakub Dvorsky and Dave Gilbert got their beginnings anyway? Heck, I would much prefer to start seeing more and more independent developers and a rise in more Machinarium's and Whispered World's for $20 rather than wandering down to the shop to spend $100 (Australia ) on a Call of Duty 5,6,7...
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Old 05-02-2010, 04:30 PM   #28
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Adventure games do not, even remotely, pose intellectual challenges, they're just computer games. Why do you assume that people who play them do so for the intellectual challenge and people who don't are mainly uneducated?
I have to make quick reply to this too. I don't think they are necessarily, but what they do generally do is allow a gamer to consider story and character more than they usually would (with the exception of games like Mass Effect 2, Uncharted... I'm only comparing things like Doom and Alien vs Predator). And because adventures are based on puzzle design and generally play out at a slow pace, a lot of gamers can't handle this and need more action and faster pacing. It's probably a mistake to label this as being unintelligent I agree, it's not the right way of putting it, but I think it's a choice of wanting something more involving and thought provoking in a game. It's not too dissimilar to people who prefer Hollywood blockbusters to better made indepedent films because they can't take their eyes off explosions long enough to appreciate good character and dialogue. Kind of off topic now though...
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Old 05-02-2010, 04:51 PM   #29
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I have to make quick reply to this too. I don't think they are necessarily, but what they do generally do is allow a gamer to consider story and character more than they usually would (with the exception of games like Mass Effect 2, Uncharted... I'm only comparing things like Doom and Alien vs Predator). And because adventures are based on puzzle design and generally play out at a slow pace, a lot of gamers can't handle this and need more action and faster pacing. It's probably a mistake to label this as being unintelligent I agree, it's not the right way of putting it, but I think it's a choice of wanting something more involving and thought provoking in a game. It's not too dissimilar to people who prefer Hollywood blockbusters to better made indepedent films because they can't take their eyes off explosions long enough to appreciate good character and dialogue. Kind of off topic now though...
Quite well said, many action based games like Prince of Persia or Tomb Raider have real time puzzles. These don't require the pinnacle of human brain either but it's the same sort of "challenge" in my view.

Fast paced also has to do with the time one can/wants to dedicate to a game. Even though they're not AGs, today I wouldn't have the patience to go through Baldur's Gate nor do hc raiding in WoW, like I used to. The pace is more a matter of style, not a measure of quality imo. Mass Effect is fast paced and it is of extremely high quality, these days I find it's not worth it dedicating that much time in gaming.

Again with Hollywood it depends, as Mass Effect is cool, there are many good high budget films. It depends on the script writer, the cast and many more parameters. I wouldn't say that all indie games are gems either, a couple of them maybe but indie does not equal quality, at least not always so.

On-topic: I agree that digital distribution has helped AGs but not AGs per se, it has helped all low-budget games in general and most recent AGs fall into that category. I think it is the episodic format that has helped, AGs do pose a financial risk - in comparison to other genres- and it is much easier to take that risk in small incremental steps, rather than all at once.

Also I'd like to see Episodic gaming getting a little more enhanced, like Bioware did with ME & DA:O, with DLC. I think it adds more value to a game and it also gives developers financial incentive to refine its content.

These being said, at the end of the game's life-cycle I want a non-drmed retail release, I like to be able to replay my games 15 years later, I like owning my games. Even if I won't be doing it, I still have the option to reinstall Baldur's Gate, Planescape Tornment, The Longest Journey and play 10 mins, just for the sake of old times. Will I be able to do the same with Monkey Island V in a few years?

Edit: another issue I can see sometimes is pricing, Dragon age costs 12 quid @ amazon.co.uk. I see some *older* indie games, costing 2x or 3x that price and they are digitally distributed, not retail copies. I find this sort of pricing quite aggressive and don't buy them simply because of the pricing policy. digitally distributed games should be cheaper than the retail version and prices should be adjusted according to a game's age.

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Old 05-02-2010, 06:33 PM   #30
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So Sughly what you are trying to say is that there is a favorable trend towards AGs?

If that's the case, you can't really tell. Amanita or Jacques l'aliéné may have hundreds or thousands contacts related to Machinarium (or any game), but if we don't have post-contact behavior data, it means nothing. It's like what happens in surveys where they ask you "Are you willing to try our X product?". Such a survey may gather thousands of "Yes" in the above question, but post data may never show it (sales). Also, even if post survey data show it, it may be for a short time. What I am saying is that in order to identify a trend you need two things: post data and large time scale.

Theoretically you may say anything about a trend but technically you can't say much because of lack of data. Personally and theoretically, I don't see a trend from non Adventure gamers in buying an AG or becoming a regular Adventure gamer. There may a trend in curiosity about AGs ("let's take a look what this is about"), but I think it's small, temporary and fluctuating over time.

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Old 05-02-2010, 09:22 PM   #31
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So Sughly what you are trying to say is that there is a favorable trend towards AGs?

If that's the case, you can't really tell. Amanita or Jacques l'aliéné may have hundreds or thousands contacts related to Machinarium (or any game), but if we don't have post-contact behavior data, it means nothing. It's like what happens in surveys where they ask you "Are you willing to try our X product?". Such a survey may gather thousands of "Yes" in the above question, but post data may never show it (sales). Also, even if post survey data show it, it may be for a short time. What I am saying is that in order to identify a trend you need two things: post data and large time scale.

Theoretically you may say anything about a trend but technically you can't say much because of lack of data. Personally and theoretically, I don't see a trend from non Adventure gamers in buying an AG or becoming a regular Adventure gamer. There may a trend in curiosity about AGs ("let's take a look what this is about"), but I think it's small, temporary and fluctuating over time.
Yeah that's fair enough, and I am basing a lot of this on presumptions that are based on little factual evidence, such as Machinarium selling out it's first run of retail copies on pre-order in Germany (thanks Fien), and quickly selling out in UK soon after (again, first print, though I don't know what these numbers were). Also, I'm basing it on the increased discussions around titles like Machinarium and Whispered World, and also Telltale games and the Ben & Dan series from people and places I didn't use to see it.

But your point remains true . I think it's true also that independent popularity isn't owned by the adventure genre, but it is also one that I think is benefiting from it more so than a lot of the others. And I'm just excited by this prospect - more adventures, and (seemingly) wider audiences for them, which of course can only be a good thing for the genre.
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Old 05-02-2010, 09:42 PM   #32
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I would say that they are on a rise. I don't know if I havn't been paying proper attention, but I really havn't seen many adventure games stocked on Australian retail shelves over the past 5 years. Recently however, I have been seeing quite a few stocked adventure games, mainly in GameTraders or supermarkets though, not so much EB or GAME.

I think digital distribution is helping immensely in the resurrection (albeit quite a small one) and that can only be a good thing. The only thing that bugs me though is the chance that physical copies could be phased out. I for one am also a big rpg fan and I love having all my games complete and boxed and lovely, and I can only assume that adventure gamers are much the same way.

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Old 05-03-2010, 12:56 AM   #33
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I'd say you're correct, and not only that, for the first time ever, I've had non0gamer female friends approach me out of the blue asking for recommendations on classic-style pointandclick adventure games.

As far as I can tell, its not necessarily because of their retro nostalgia value, but more because of the gameplay and relaxed elements which set adventure games apart from all other game styles... They appeal to the non-gamer because the controls are easy and the game rules simple (as well as the unusual stories etc). No complex control systems or ultra dextrous fingers required, just a keen mind. And more importantly, because you can easily and quickly play them on a PC, which is the 'console' of choice for the non-gamer, the person who uses the computer only incidentally for gaming and won't spend money on a console.

A few of you have raised as the future of gaming, and specifically the path that adventure games should follow. And I whole-heartedly disagree.

Its easy with a niche market like gaming to get tunnel vision and see the newest xbox or playstation, with its high end graphics and big ultra-rendered games as the future of gaming. But what was the big seller with non-gamers? The Wii. What was the second-highest selling game on the Xbox live in 2008? Braid, a 2d style puzzle meets platform game with a unique premise and involving story.

As the opening post mentioned, Amanita design stated they were receiving emails from people aged 6 to 80, which you will absolutely NOT find happening with consoles, or most of the games found on them. There's something different in the pc game with its simple point and click which latched onto the imagination of the broader audience, more than any 3d game with ultra-real graphics ever could. Adventure games appeal to more than the niche gamer market, which is where I see their influx of attention coming from.

For those reasons I'd say adventure games are on the rise, and trying to change them to appeal to a console audience is going to alienate its biggest potential audience, the casual non-console pc gamers.
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Old 05-03-2010, 02:17 AM   #34
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I suspected as much.

I don't know if assigning blame over that, as some people have done, solves anything. As far as I know games that involve things like exploration and discovery and story have been marketed as adventure games since the early 90s. Tomb Raider was categorized as an adventure game, and that title was released in 1996. You could say that what those two guys on the train were discussing was not the kind of adventure game you yourself would play, but in many people's minds that game still qualifies as an adventure game.

So who's right about it? The traditionalists who play only point-&-clickers? Publishers like Eidos that market Tomb Raider as an adventure game? Current games like Uncharted that are also marketed as an adventure game? Is there actually a much more inclusive definition of "adventure game" that some people vehemently oppose? Inclusive in that it can also be about action alongside puzzle solving?

LOL! Do you realize we've been having the exact same conversation as we did five years ago? Ten years ago?

You know, when I wrote The Cold Hotspot five years ago there was a controversy going on about the direction that the adventure game genre might have been taking. With real time 3D games like Broken Sword: The Sleeping Dragon and other similar titles there was a quite a heated discussion here at AG and at other adventure game sites. Some of us were freaking out or just outright furious that our "beloved" 2D genre may be killed off in favour of 3D graphics and - *GASP* - dumbed down action sequences!!!

Well, fast forward to 2010. What do you see? Look at the AG main page and tell me if none of the recent and upcoming games featured in reviews and previews are in traditional 2D point-&-click.

The same thing happened over 10 years ago with the advent of Gabriel Knight 3, which as we know was in real time 3D. People were freaking out and screaming bloody murder back then, too, that their genre was gonna be bulldozed by 3D and - *GASP* - dumbed down action sequences!!! Did anything happen that even remotely resembled that? (eventually The Longest Journey supplanted Gabriel Knight 3 as "The Next Great Adventure Game" and many traditionalists celebrated this because TLJ wasn't in 3D; LOL!)

In fact, there were others who also stated what you stated: "I hope you're right. I really do."

In other words, essentially nothing has changed. That's why I stated that I honestly don't know what you're complaining about and why.

Well, let's just say you hadn't yet met a very large section of gamers and realized that they love playing a variety of game types. In fact, many of us here at AG also play RPGs, first person shooters, strategy games, racing games, side scrollers, etc.
I don't consider Tomb Raider an AG. Allthough the latest two releases (Legend and Underworld) have certainly come close I still think there's to much emphasis on skill rather than intelligence. And I think that's what it's all about. Not whether there are action sequences in a game or not but what their purpose is. For instance in Dreamfall all the action sequences are integral to the narrative. I hugely encourage this. I mean why would you waste an action sequence on a cutscene when you can implement it in the gameplay as well? For me AGs are like interactive movies and why would you waste the action elements of movies on cutscenes. That seems hardly fair. However with Tomb Raider the emphasis of the sequences lies on pasing a challenge and not on helping the story further or even greater immersion. Therefor I do not think of them as AGs. Allthough I'd have to say I'm intrigued by the fact they got advertised as AGs. It must mean the genre's getting more and more popular. I mean why would you advertise a popular franchise like Tomb Raider as a long dead genre?

LOL! BS3? I love that game. (as you are probably well aware of) Once more the emphasis on the sequences lies on the narrative. I mean name me one movie in the vein of Broken Sword that did not involve runnign from falling rocks and villains?

Also since when does GK3 include action sequences? I think this term has been used way to much over the years.

As for the graphic aspect I think every game should use graphics that suits them best. For instance I'm still rooting for Monkey Island to go back to 2D (keep dreaming) but I love Broken Sword in 3D (allthough I didn't like the graphics in BS4, way to stale)

By the way: I think it's really funny that TLJ was seen as the hope of the genre back in the days as it's sequal was way more unconventional than GK3.

And I do know a lot of members here play other types of games as well. But the AG's only a very small section of all gamers. Even a small section of all adventure gamers.

PS: Just a small question I came up with last night. Is your niece's ambition of becoming a forensic scientist the result of playing, and no doubt watching, CSI as a kid?

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I have a friend, a very good friend. He plays only Tomb Raider, because he likes Lara's a$$ and Quake 3 deathmatches. He doesn't touch modern shooters because they have storylines and storylines bore him, he watches movies for that.

There are many things I would call him but stupid is not one of them, he holds a PhD in theoretical physics from Cambridge, held various postdoctoral positions at quite prestigious places and recently he got his assistant professorship at a quite well known University.

Adventure games do not, even remotely, pose intellectual challenges, they're just computer games. Why do you assume that people who play them do so for the intellectual challenge and people who don't are mainly uneducated?
That's interesting perspective you or rather he poses there. Not wanting to play games that have stories because he watches movies for that. Like I said before, for me an AG is like an interactive movie and therefor the story is just as, if not more, important as the gameplay. But that's a really fresh and interresting perspective I hadn't thought of before.

Second: AGs don't pose intellectual challenges? I'm gonna answer you in a minute, first let me pick up my jaw from the floor and recover from my near fatal heart attack. Okay, ready now: That's exactly what they do! While other types of games pose challenge through skill. AGs pose challenges through intelligence. Posing intellectual challenges is what they're al about!

Also I'd like to say I have no doubt your friend is really bright, genial maybe, but being bright or at least cultured and being well educated are two completely different things. I know some people who are increddibly bright. Talking to them is like reading an encyclopedia. But they've barely managed to get their O-levels. (we don't have O-levels and A-levels in Holland but we have, or more precisely had, a similar schoolsystem) But to get to your point I'm not saying people who play games that way are, as I think you meant to say, dumb (not the same thing as uneducated I must insist) but that it would be a shame if AGs were played that way.

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Don't worry about the response you got. I agree with your original post 100%. Other people just like to play pretend though, when they examine the masses.

How many of the masses read intelligent books, play intelligent Euro boardgames, or anything involving thinking?

I find that the adventure genre has a ton more heart and soul now than in the coveted and rosecolored view of the 90s that most people have.

Cater to the masses and you get casual games. Not what I am interested in.
I do worry about my response, a lot in fact. I'm not always right you know. And those who disagree with me have very vallid points too. For me it's not about right and wrong, It's just a matter of different opinions. And the truth generally lies somewhere in the middle. I do appreciate you having my back though.

As for your second statement (or to be more precise retorical question) unfortunately I have to agree with. Less and less people seem concerned about intellectual exercises and it worries me a lot.

As for your third statement: I wholeheartedly agree with you. I think AGs are only getting better and better. Allthough there was a small incline in quality somewhere during the early 2000s but even then you still had TLJ and GK3

But with your final statemant I think you're barking up the wrong tree here my friend as I'm with the other side. I like playing cassuals. Sure they don't pose much of an intellectual challenge but they're great to play in my in-between hours. Something I've never managed to do with an AG. Also I don't have to be challenged every minute of the day. Sometimes I just wanna play. I guess this where some people pick up a shooter or racing game.

And last but not least I must ask if we can drop the term "the masses" As I've expressed before I really don't like the term and I'm pretty mad at myself for throwing it on the net. I'm still expecting a message from the mods for inappropriate language. Anyways, that's all

EDIT: I don't mean to say all AGs pose itellectuall challenges but they all intent to. If they don't it the result of a bad design or simply because the player is more intelligent than the designer anticipated

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Old 05-03-2010, 02:33 AM   #35
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I have to make quick reply to this too. I don't think they are necessarily, but what they do generally do is allow a gamer to consider story and character more than they usually would (with the exception of games like Mass Effect 2, Uncharted... I'm only comparing things like Doom and Alien vs Predator). And because adventures are based on puzzle design and generally play out at a slow pace, a lot of gamers can't handle this and need more action and faster pacing. It's probably a mistake to label this as being unintelligent I agree, it's not the right way of putting it, but I think it's a choice of wanting something more involving and thought provoking in a game. It's not too dissimilar to people who prefer Hollywood blockbusters to better made indepedent films because they can't take their eyes off explosions long enough to appreciate good character and dialogue. Kind of off topic now though...
Wow that's a much better answer than I gave! Should've read further. Also I must stress once more that I do not label these people as unitelligent but merely saying it would be a shame to treat AGs that way. I deeply regret this misinterpretation.

And just as a side note: there are plenty of big hollywood productions who are really clever and thought provoking. It all depends on the writer and director.

Last edited by gray pierce; 05-03-2010 at 02:42 AM.
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Old 05-03-2010, 02:48 AM   #36
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I think it is the episodic format that has helped, AGs do pose a financial risk - in comparison to other genres- and it is much easier to take that risk in small incremental steps, rather than all at once.
Bloody hell, I keep missing out on great posts. I completely agree with you on that one! I think episodic AG is the future. Like I've said somewhere before I believe episodic AG is the tv of tomorrow. My greatest wish for AGs will be that in ten years there will be long running series with seasons of 10 to 12 episodes that will be just as popular as the ones on tv. I think that's the way the genre should go. I really do
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Old 05-03-2010, 03:38 AM   #37
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And just as a side note: there are plenty of big hollywood productions who are really clever and thought provoking. It all depends on the writer and director.
This is true, and someone else mentioned it before too so I thought it was worth agreeing on . In that manner they are the 'Mass Effect' and the 'Uncharted' of the blockbuster world, few and far between. But I enjoy them immensely when they do come along (refer to Christopher Nolan here please ).
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Old 05-03-2010, 04:17 AM   #38
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This is true, and someone else mentioned it before too so I thought it was worth agreeing on . In that manner they are the 'Mass Effect' and the 'Uncharted' of the blockbuster world, few and far between. But I enjoy them immensely when they do come along (refer to Christopher Nolan here please ).
Yeah long live Chris Nolan! Now where was I? Oh yes...I haven't played Uncharted as I don't own a PS2 either (in fact I own no consoles whatsoever) but I take it it's good? Would you say better than the latest Tomb Raider releases because I really liked those. And will there ever be a PC release?
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Old 05-03-2010, 08:18 AM   #39
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Played only Myst, found it very boring but anything with a first person view bores me to death, even HL 2. Myst hard? I wouldn't say so, the only hard time I recall was keeping my eyes open.

Completing a video game, which thousands of others have comteted/will complete, is an intellectual challenge? Hardly so.

If a few thousand people around the world have beaten a game, it isn't an intellectual challenge?

Using that argument, becoming a doctor isn't an intellectual challenge. 100s of millions around the world have done it. Same goes for getting a PHD, etc.

That pretty much discounts everything in the world as an intellectual challenge unless you actually make a new discovery for the human race. Good luck with that.

So, you are saying you could beat RHEM without resorting to walkthroughs? You consider the game challengeless?
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:10 AM   #40
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If a few thousand people around the world have beaten a game, it isn't an intellectual challenge?

Using that argument, becoming a doctor isn't an intellectual challenge. 100s of millions around the world have done it. Same goes for getting a PHD, etc.
The difference being that these are professional qualifications which allot of intelligent people bother to obtain, on the other hand not that many need Myst in their CV. Anyhow, I hardly think Myst compares to a Medicine Degree or a PhD.

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That pretty much discounts everything in the world as an intellectual challenge unless you actually make a new discovery for the human race. Good luck with that.
Publications in science journals do exactly that. There are quite a few people that do this in academia & research industry. This is a challenging task and by definition requires original thought. AGs are like crosswords & sudoku, if you consider crosswords to be intellectually challenging, then what can I say, I suppose you may as well label AGs as such.

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So, you are saying you could beat RHEM without resorting to walkthroughs? You consider the game challengeless?
Video games are not challenging, they're just yet another way to spend one's free time having fun.
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