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Old 05-04-2010, 01:35 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens View Post
No wonder David Cage and Ragnar Tornquist and even the Rand brothers stopped listening to this "small whiny group" while producing their new titles. In the end these creators chose to DUMP the traditional 2D point-&-click puzzle paradigm behind them, in spite of what the tiny number of 2D traditionalists demanded of them (I remember an interview where Tornquist complained in passing about this vociferous group). That in part finally allowed them the freedom to create such games that offered new experiences to us - Uru, Myst V, In Memoriam, Dreamfall, Indigo Prophecy, Heavy Rain, etc.
It's one thing to ignore the obviously deluded and fanatic groups, but the fact is that both sides do have a valid point. Ignoring one group as a whole is not only generalizing and immature, it also alienates a part of your fan base. I don't think that's what they want. Even though financial success is crucial, I'm sure respect in the industry is as important. People constantly preaching against games like Heavy Rain are as fanatic as those who think all adventures should be like that.

To people who hate David Cage for making games like Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain: Don't. He himself has said that neither of the games are adventure, nor were they ever meant to be. When I emailed him 5 years ago, he told me the marketing team is the one to blame for this mislabel. He's just making games he wants to make. If you want someone to target, start with adventure game websites and people who call either one of these games adventure.

To people who keep saying David Cage is the future of ags... Move on. It's not going to happen.

Last edited by Hannes; 05-04-2010 at 01:54 AM.
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Old 05-04-2010, 06:00 AM   #62
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Eh, Uru was awful and so was Dreamfall. If that was the future of "adventure games", it would essentially be dead to me. I also have 0 interest in console games. I play for puzzles, not video game stories, which even at their best, pale compared to a good book or good sci fi tv.
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Old 05-04-2010, 06:39 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Hannes View Post
It's one thing to ignore the obviously deluded and fanatic groups, but the fact is that both sides do have a valid point. Ignoring one group as a whole is not only generalizing and immature, it also alienates a part of your fan base. I don't think that's what they want. Even though financial success is crucial, I'm sure respect in the industry is as important. People constantly preaching against games like Heavy Rain are as fanatic as those who think all adventures should be like that.
I wonder why they don't implement two modes, "classic" and normal.

Bioware managed to do it with Dragon Age. Dragon Age is a full 3D game but a small portion of the players is very attached to the oldschool isometric view, which the Infinity engine provided (Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment).

This gives full 3D but those that want Infinity-like graphics can easily get them. A comparison of how this works out:

Baldur's gate:



Dragon Age - top down (BG style) view:



I'd say the top down view looks like a modernized infinity engine. Bioware wanted to move forward without disappointing a rather small, yet loyal, part of its fanbase.

The first effort to do this, in Neverwinter Nights 2, was not too successful and the game's main weakness was in fact the camera. However the idea itself was not bad at all and when implemented properly, in Dragon Age, it proved very successful.

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Old 05-04-2010, 07:42 AM   #64
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Eh, Uru was awful and so was Dreamfall. If that was the future of "adventure games", it would essentially be dead to me. I also have 0 interest in console games. I play for puzzles, not video game stories, which even at their best, pale compared to a good book or good sci fi tv.
So basically all the genre needs to do is come up with better stories? I agree 100% Looking at the "Art of Murder" series that have interresting stories but still pale in comparison to so much crime fiction I truly believe they, or more likely someone else, can do better than that. In fact I have every belief that AGs can come up with stories that are just as good as, if not better, than those in books and on tv.

Also as far as story is concerned I think TLJ and Dreamfall really stand out.
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:12 AM   #65
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So basically all the genre needs to do is come up with better stories? I agree 100% Looking at the "Art of Murder" series that have interresting stories but still pale in comparison to so much crime fiction I truly believe they, or more likely someone else, can do better than that. In fact I have every belief that AGs can come up with stories that are just as good as, if not better, than those in books and on tv.

Also as far as story is concerned I think TLJ and Dreamfall really stand out.
No, as I said, to me, adventure games are all about well constructed and clued puzzles. Progression in the genre, to me, is to have less ridiculous puzzles(betetr clued and less wacky nonsensical puzzles), less pixel hunting, and easier navigation in the first person adventures.

TLJ had a cute story and all, but the puzzles are what made me enjoy it. Dreamfall was a joke and I didn't make it past 30 minutes because there was no soul... just connect the dots to hear more story.
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Old 05-04-2010, 10:45 AM   #66
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No, as I said, to me, adventure games are all about well constructed and clued puzzles. Progression in the genre, to me, is to have less ridiculous puzzles(betetr clued and less wacky nonsensical puzzles), less pixel hunting, and easier navigation in the first person adventures.

TLJ had a cute story and all, but the puzzles are what made me enjoy it. Dreamfall was a joke and I didn't make it past 30 minutes because there was no soul... just connect the dots to hear more story.
So if the gamestories would get as good as those in books and on tv you really couldn't care less? I guess that's a way of looking at things. Certainly explains why you hated Dreamfall so much. Indeed that game is mostly about getting the story moving.
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Old 05-04-2010, 11:11 AM   #67
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Gaming on the PC is steady. Best Buy still gets in new PC adventures all the time - mainly from City Interactive and Her Interactive at 19.95 each. In fact, I have not paid more than $19.95 for a PC adventure game in 4 years.


I tore myself away from my DSi XL (TONS of Adventure games and new ones coming out all the time) to play Cards of Destiny on the PC. I must say, for a PC adventure - it is rather fun. Sure, the script is lacking and the story is been there done that - but the graphics are fabulous and it is very bug-free.

As long as City Interactive and Her Interactive keep putting them out - we are in good shape. Gray Matter later this year should be a real treat.
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Old 05-04-2010, 11:16 AM   #68
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So if the gamestories would get as good as those in books and on tv you really couldn't care less? I guess that's a way of looking at things. Certainly explains why you hated Dreamfall so much. Indeed that game is mostly about getting the story moving.
I don't feel the medium is capable of telling a story even a fraction as good. Besides, if I want a story, i would prefer watching or reading one to having to do menial tasks to unlock more, as in dreamfall.
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Old 05-04-2010, 01:58 PM   #69
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But...but...but...i haven't played it (for earlier described reasons) but from what I've seen of it Heavy Rain is an AG! It's an AG with action sequences but I did indeed get the impression they're story driven rather than skill driven. So yes, since you just confirmed that I wholeheartedly agree Heavy Rain is an AG. I'm really sorry if I gave you the impression I dissagreed on that point. So just to get it out of the way: Fahrenheit, Heavy Rain, Dreamfall...all AGs in my opinion.
Go buy/rent/borrow yourself a PS3 and play it! Admittedly I haven't finished it yet, left off about 1/3 through. I found that it's one of those games where I have to be in a particular state of mind to enjoy - that is, if you consider a very somber, emotionally draining story based game as enjoyment.

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Ah another misunderstanding here. If a puzzle is there for the challenge than it is an intellectual challenge something what AGs are all about in my opinion. However if an action sequence is there just for the challenge than it's a challenge of skill wich is something that doesn't belong in my definition of an AG. I't doesn't sound fair, I know but it makes sense if you look at it in terms of purpose. Besides just having a good time AGs are there to challenge you're brain. Therefore they tend to have a good story that will challenge your mind in a small way (figuring out what's going on) and lots of puzzles that will challange your mind big time. I'm talking ideal situation here of course
Shhh! Not so loud, imisssunwell might be listening. We can still argue that it's possible to introduce a few action or skill based sequences in a game that are well integrated into story and character and the game can still be categorized as an adventure.

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As for the second bit. I guess that's possible looking at games like Dreamfall and Fahrenheit and probably Heavy Rain but the emphasis of the action sequences has to be on the story rather than the challenge otherwise I wouldn't call it an AG.

My idea of action is running (away from danger) fighting or shooting.
Like in Dreamfall? Also, there were stealth sequences in Broken Sword 3 which I consider action.

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Yes but why would he? Later on you stated that every game should use the graphics that the developer thinks suits them best and I agree with you on that one. After all, no one knows the game better than the one who made it. So obviously CC thought the graphics that suited this game best were 3D, whether thay had effect on the puzzles or not. And I do think 3D had effect on them.
Ah, but nowhere did I state that the developer choosing a certain format for an adventure game means that that format will always work perfectly for it. Honestly, I don't know how much experience Charles Cecil and his team have had with real time 3D at the time they worked on BS3. But I'm judging them based on the results in the finished game. And my summary on it is that they didn't quite take advantage of 3D in the way that, say, David Cage did in Heavy Rain, or most any developer who has extensive experience working with the 3D format.

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For instance a lot of puzzles involve jumping, grabbing on to ledges and shimmying. Try doing that in 2D!
It's been done. One of the most recent examples is Shadow Complex (gameplay clip), an action title that looks and feels like a 2D side scroller.

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Nope, that's not what I'm trying to say. What I was trying to say is if all AGs like Heavy Rain become immensely popular than why would commercial company's spend money on more traditional games?
But don't you agree that the reality is that not all AGs like Heavy Rain will be immensely popular? Even if other developers jump on the bandwagon and try make their adventures more like that one, it doesn't mean those developers have the talents David Cage possesses, and it certainly doesn't mean those games will always be high quality, right? Besides, many adventure game developers don't have the backing of companies like Sony or Microsoft or EA to fund projects as ambitious as a game like Heavy Rain.

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So you're saying I'm a loudmouth? Then you're right sir I am! Wich is probably the result of being a very quiet person in real life.
LOL! I don't know if you are, but from what I used to deal with five years ago in this forum and other adventure forums there were a small but very, very vocal group people who more or less complained vehemently. Yeah, they really did think that games like Gabriel Knight 3, Broken Sword 3, and Uru spelled the death of traditional 2D point-&-clickers. Well, have they?

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I'd hate to be shared among those 2D traditionalists (for obvious reason) and I truly enjoy games like Dreamfall or Fahrenhiet/Indigo Prophecy. In fact I think they're fantastic and making them should be promoted but not at the cost of more traditional games. It's just like I'm starting to get worried about the increasing popularity of cassual games especially with AG franchises being converted into cassual format. Nevertheless I still like playing cassuals. Loving something but at the same time fearing it will go at the cost of something else you love is possible. But maybe I'm wrong, we'll see.
IMO, honestly, if there's something many traditional adventure gamers should worry about it's the increasing popularity of casual games (i.e. Farmville) encroaching on the adventure game segment of the market and industry, NOT real time 3D. Your typical adventure game demands sitting down in front of your PC for a few hours at a time and investing all that time in story, character, and puzzle solving, right? But many casual games tend to not demand as much and can still deliver story, albeit a bite size smidgen of story, and allow the player to pick up and play at any time, anywhere (thanks to various distribution systems via cell phones and portable gaming devices).

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I see, now I know what I have to give my baby brother for his second birthday. No seriously way to go!
I think my niece is that only one in our family that loves gross stuff like that. LOL!

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One final question. I also asked someone else but maybe you can answer this too. Do you know of Uncharted is going to get a PC release somewhere in the near future? Because you keep mentioning that game along with Tomb Raider and I love those games. And even more importantly do you know if Heavy Rain is ever going to be released for PC?
Honestly, it may not happen. Sony has tight reins on the Uncharted series and I don't think they'd be interested in porting. If it had been Microsoft there may have been a better chance. Same with Heavy Rain. But we'll see. After all, Silent Hill 2 and 3 made it to PC, and they were released on the PS2.
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Old 05-04-2010, 02:44 PM   #70
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It's one thing to ignore the obviously deluded and fanatic groups, but the fact is that both sides do have a valid point. Ignoring one group as a whole is not only generalizing and immature, it also alienates a part of your fan base. I don't think that's what they want. Even though financial success is crucial, I'm sure respect in the industry is as important. People constantly preaching against games like Heavy Rain are as fanatic as those who think all adventures should be like that.
I agree about both sides having a valid point. However, developers like Cage and Tornquist and even Tim Schafer have a particularly strong point as developers. They wanted to make the games they envisioned and in order to make them they had to leave behind what they perceived to be constricting conventions, like 2D, point-&-click interface, etc., which free up the games to be interesting to a wider audience. So they chose, and the decisions alienated a certain group. That's unfortunate, but if you as a game designer constantly allow that tiny group to dictate what your game should be, you lose your sense of creative freedom.

Certainly if I were a developer with a vision the last thing I'd want is to be forced by a small group to compromise that vision. To me that's just utterly stupid.

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To people who hate David Cage for making games like Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain: Don't. He himself has said that neither of the games are adventure, nor were they ever meant to be. When I emailed him 5 years ago, he told me the marketing team is the one to blame for this mislabel. He's just making games he wants to make. If you want someone to target, start with adventure game websites and people who call either one of these games adventure.
Exactly. That's what I meant when I stated that these two talented men should know when to stop listening to such demands and just make whatever kind of game they want to make and many of us will get new and exciting experiences from those games.

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To people who keep saying David Cage is the future of ags... Move on. It's not going to happen.
I for one don't see Cage or similarly minded developers as THE future of AGs. Instead I see them as JUST ONE AWESOME DIRECTION FOR THE FUTURE OF AGs.
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Old 05-04-2010, 03:02 PM   #71
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Eh, Uru was awful and so was Dreamfall. If that was the future of "adventure games", it would essentially be dead to me. I also have 0 interest in console games. I play for puzzles, not video game stories, which even at their best, pale compared to a good book or good sci fi tv.
Completely agree with you.

Some people just refuse to accept that a large part of the Adventure game audience are people who play few, if any, other computer games. BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE THEM. Hybrid games are not the future! I guess a tumour could be considered a brain 'develoment' but that doesn't make it the ideal future model for the human brain!

I am not a purist or a fanatic; i'm open to anything that will make a good adventure game, traditional or not. For example, i thought that the non-traditional isomatric viewpoint used in Sanitarium was brilliant (sure, the movement was awkward but that could easilly be ironed out) and I don't know why more people didn't go with it. At the same time 'a good adventure game' is my sole criteria. I don't care about innovation for its own sake.

Keep adventure games what they are but just make them better. An idea so simple that even I can come up with it.
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Old 05-04-2010, 03:13 PM   #72
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[QUOTE=Intrepid Homoludens;548085]
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P Go buy/rent/borrow yourself a PS3 and play it! Admittedly I haven't finished it yet, left off about 1/3 through. I found that it's one of those games where I have to be in a particular state of mind to enjoy - that is, if you consider a very somber, emotionally draining story based game as enjoyment.
Oh yeah, a very somber emotionally draining story is like entertainment heaven for me! Will eh...probably borrow a PS3 ASAP

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Shhh! Not so loud, imisssunwell might be listening. We can still argue that it's possible to introduce a few action or skill based sequences in a game that are well integrated into story and character and the game can still be categorized as an adventure.
Sorry But you do have a point. I think it all depends on how hard this sequence challenges you're skills. The puzzles should be primary but a little siede challenge dan't hurt.

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Like in Dreamfall? Also, there were stealth sequences in Broken Sword 3 which I consider action.
Yeah Dreamfall definetely contained action sequences in my opinion and so did BS3 the stealth sequences is what I was refering to when I so ineloquently said "running(away from danger)" I consider falling rocks and crazy women who want to kill you danger don't you?

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Ah, but nowhere did I state that the developer choosing a certain format for an adventure game means that that format will always work perfectly for it. Honestly, I don't know how much experience Charles Cecil and his team have had with real time 3D at the time they worked on BS3. But I'm judging them based on the results in the finished game. And my summary on it is that they didn't quite take advantage of 3D in the way that, say, David Cage did in Heavy Rain, or most any developer who has extensive experience working with the 3D format.
And just how well was the 3D used in Tales of Monkey Island then? Also compared to David Cage almost everyone pales. But you do have a point looking at Dreamfall I'd say they could've done more with it. However they still exploited it a lot more than telltale did with ToMI and noone's complaining about that.

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It's been done. One of the most recent examples is Shadow Complex (gameplay clip), an action title that looks and feels like a 2D side scroller.
Indeed, I take back my last sentence. I still think they did exploit it to a certain level though.

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But don't you agree that the reality is that not all AGs like Heavy Rain will be immensely popular? Even if other developers jump on the bandwagon and try make their adventures more like that one, it doesn't mean those developers have the talents David Cage possesses, and it certainly doesn't mean those games will always be high quality, right? Besides, many adventure game developers don't have the backing of companies like Sony or Microsoft or EA to fund projects as ambitious as a game like Heavy Rain.
No but not all action-adventure or shooter games are high quality and they're still immensely popular. In a perfect world only the good products become popular. In real life, or at least how experience it, if a certain genre becomes popular companies start promoting those games and consumers keep buying them no matter if they're high quality or not.

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LOL! I don't know if you are, but from what I used to deal with five years ago in this forum and other adventure forums there were a small but very, very vocal group people who more or less complained vehemently. Yeah, they really did think that games like Gabriel Knight 3, Broken Sword 3, and Uru spelled the death of traditional 2D point-&-clickers. Well, have they?
I think you've made your point on that one. I was actually just joking a bit.

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IMO, honestly, if there's something many traditional adventure gamers should worry about it's the increasing popularity of casual games (i.e. Farmville) encroaching on the adventure game segment of the market and industry, NOT real time 3D. Your typical adventure game demands sitting down in front of your PC for a few hours at a time and investing all that time in story, character, and puzzle solving, right? But many casual games tend to not demand as much and can still deliver story, albeit a bite size smidgen of story, and allow the player to pick up and play at any time, anywhere (thanks to various distribution systems via cell phones and portable gaming devices).
I'm still having a hard time coming to terms with being called a traditional gamer. Not being a huge fan of 2D and being a fan of games like Dreamfall or Fahrenheit and all. I just don't see myself as a traditionalist. But like I said in my previous post I am indeed worried about the increasing popularity of cassuals. Allthough I do like playing them myself as well. But I'm starting to become repetitive, I'm sure you can read for yourself.

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I think my niece is that only one in our family that loves gross stuff like that. LOL!
Lucky you

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Honestly, it may not happen. Sony has tight reins on the Uncharted series and I don't think they'd be interested in porting. If it had been Microsoft there may have been a better chance. Same with Heavy Rain. But we'll see. After all, Silent Hill 2 and 3 made it to PC, and they were released on the PS2.
Bummer, but with a little glimps of hope in the future. Do you by any chance know why Cage decided to go to sony instead of atari whom he did Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy with?
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Old 05-04-2010, 03:20 PM   #73
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I don't feel the medium is capable of telling a story even a fraction as good. Besides, if I want a story, i would prefer watching or reading one to having to do menial tasks to unlock more, as in dreamfall.
Why is that? Don't you have any confidence in gamedesigners?

BTW: The slowly unlocking of the story is what made Dreamfall so worthwhile for me (well that and a lot of other stuff) but that's all a matter of taste. I can certainly see your point there.
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Old 05-04-2010, 03:21 PM   #74
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Bummer, but with a little glimps of hope in the future. Do you by any chance know why Cage decided to go to sony instead of atari whom he did Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy with?
No, I don't know. But I'm guess it's because Sony has both the money and resources, AND the large install base of the PS3 platform (didn't Heavy Rain sell a million copies so far?). Cage himself explained why he didn't go with Microsoft - he didn't think the Xbox was powerful enough to handle such a game.

Atari has a reputation for being a difficult publisher to work with, and they've had some problems with things like money and management in the past.
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Old 05-04-2010, 03:29 PM   #75
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[QUOTE=Hannes;547985]
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It's one thing to ignore the obviously deluded and fanatic groups, but the fact is that both sides do have a valid point. Ignoring one group as a whole is not only generalizing and immature, it also alienates a part of your fan base. I don't think that's what they want. Even though financial success is crucial, I'm sure respect in the industry is as important. People constantly preaching against games like Heavy Rain are as fanatic as those who think all adventures should be like that.

To people who hate David Cage for making games like Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain: Don't. He himself has said that neither of the games are adventure, nor were they ever meant to be. When I emailed him 5 years ago, he told me the marketing team is the one to blame for this mislabel. He's just making games he wants to make. If you want someone to target, start with adventure game websites and people who call either one of these games adventure.
Ow this hurts! Sorry for saying Fahrenheit's an AG. I just thought so because in my opinion AGs are mainly focussed on the story with usually lots of puzzles. Allthough the puzzles in Fahrenheit are of a different nature than we're used to I'd still call them puzzles. Thus it's falls under my criteria for an AG. Sorry David my mistake

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To people who keep saying David Cage is the future of ags... Move on. It's not going to happen.
Guess I won't be taking David Cage out for a drink anytime soon. Sorry there too I just kind of think that's the direction AGs should be taking. As long as there's still room for the traditional ones too.

Really sorry, foot in mouth
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Old 05-04-2010, 03:35 PM   #76
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No, I don't know. But I'm guess it's because Sony has both the money and resources, AND the large install base of the PS3 platform (didn't Heavy Rain sell a million copies so far?). Cage himself explained why he didn't go with Microsoft - he didn't think the Xbox was powerful enough to handle such a game.

Atari has a reputation for being a difficult publisher to work with, and they've had some problems with things like money and management in the past.
Ah I see, real bummer. But ehm...I'm not to familiar in these tirritories so forgive me for sounding foolish but doesn't microsoft also handle PC releases? I mean the Xbox may not be powerful enough but how about the PC? I've probably made you bellylaughing all over the floor here but like I said I'm in uncharted waters

As for Atari didn't know that. Thing like money and management can be a real obstacle yes
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:00 PM   #77
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Ow this hurts! Sorry for saying Fahrenheit's an AG. I just thought so because in my opinion AGs are mainly focussed on the story with usually lots of puzzles. Allthough the puzzles in Fahrenheit are of a different nature than we're used to I'd still call them puzzles. Thus it's falls under my criteria for an AG. Sorry David my mistake

...Guess I won't be taking David Cage out for a drink anytime soon. Sorry there too I just kind of think that's the direction AGs should be taking. As long as there's still room for the traditional ones too.

Really sorry, foot in mouth
LOL! Why are you apologizing for contradicting someone else's opinion?

Fahrenheit is listed on the Adventure Gamer site, for one thing. Furthermore, that's the point I made earlier. You could argue that a certain game is categorically an adventure game just as someone else could also argue it is not. Again, whose definition are we working with? And on what authority is that definition based?

As for Cage's games being the direction that adventure games will take, again I say that's a rather risky proposal. Which is why I say that his games are ONE VERY GOOD DIRECTION the genre can take out of many different directions. Who has the absolute authority to arbitrate what an adventure game is supposed to be, period? Certainly not your or me, and certainly not Hannes, either. If anything, it should ultimately be a matter of what kind of game we individually want to play without imposing our opinions on the genre as a whole and demanding that developers do this or that.

Let the developers do what they want and if we don't like it we have the choice to play something else.
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:11 PM   #78
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[QUOTE=Intrepid Homoludens;548109]
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LOL! Why are you apologizing for contradicting someone else's opinion?
Because that other person is David Cage and you can't argue with the person who made those games can you? Of course it's also a possibility Hannes manipulated his words to make us believe he said that. But I give him the benefit of the doubt.


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Fahrenheit is listed on the Adventure Gamer site, for one thing. Furthermore, that's the point I made earlier. You could argue that a certain game is categorically an adventure game just as someone else could also argue it is not. Again, whose definition are we working with? And on what authority is that definition based?
Same answer applies here as well. If David Cage says it's not an AG it's not.

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As for Cage's games being the direction that adventure games will take, again I say that's a rather risky proposal. Which is why I say that his games are ONE VERY GOOD DIRECTION the genre can take out of many different directions. Who has the absolute authority to arbitrate what an adventure game is supposed to be, period? Certainly not your or me, and certainly not Hannes, either. If anything, it should ultimately be a matter of what kind of game we individually want to play without imposing our opinions on the genre as a whole and demanding that developers do this or that.
I think the designer has the right to decide whether his game is an AG or not
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Let the developers do what they want and if we don't like it we have the choice to play something else.
Very wise words, I wish our world leaders were like that
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:16 PM   #79
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Ergh, I've created a monster!

It's fine if we all want to have arguments over David Cage and whatnot but they are kind of going off topic...

That being said, I can't help but point this out-

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Originally Posted by darthmaul View Post
I don't feel the medium is capable of telling a story even a fraction as good. Besides, if I want a story, i would prefer watching or reading one to having to do menial tasks to unlock more, as in dreamfall.
Eh? Come again? I strongly, strongly disagree. A good adventure is one that a) tells a great story, with interesting characters, locations, and settings, and b) uses puzzle design that is integral to the progression of story, rather than being an obstacle to it. Sure, a lot of badly designed games are as you described, but not the whole genre.

Now, back on topic please!
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:19 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Sughly View Post
Ergh, I've created a monster!

It's fine if we all want to have arguments over David Cage and whatnot but they are kind of going off topic...

That being said, I can't help but point this out-



Eh? Come again? I strongly, strongly disagree. A good adventure is one that a) tells a great story, with interesting characters, locations, and settings, and b) uses puzzle design that is integral to the progression of story, rather than being an obstacle to it. Sure, a lot of badly designed games are as you described, but not the whole genre.

Now, back on topic please!
I feel a new "Can AGs be challenging" thread coming up
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