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Hero-U, from the developers of Quest for Glory
Let’s see… If you add $15 to a Kickstarter pledge, $1.50 goes to them and Amazon payments. Then we pay $9.99 to gog.com for the game (they haven’t been able to offer us a discount), and someone needs to take the time to email the key to the supporter. That’s $3.51 added to the game funding if you don’t count the labor. We figure that anyone who would rather spend $10 than $15 will pick up the games directly from gog.com. If we offered them for $10, we would *lose* $1 plus labor on every transaction.
None of that really changes my stance on that matter. Has it been paying off so far? Because if it has, then great, I stand corrected.
Ah, we evil money-grubbing game developers!
I knew it all along! You won’t get away with it though I’ll counter act it with piracy, nyuk-nyuk-nyuk!
Well Bastion definitely didn’t cause near 400k to make. So I don’t think its impossible to provide a better quality game that that for the budget you’re asking. Keep a reliable and trustworthy team and you wouldn’t have to spend so much money.
Ref Bastion “costing a lot less than $400,000”... First of all, we don’t actually get $400,000 from the Kickstarter. After fees, expenses, and premiums, $260,000 will go into the game. From 5 minutes research of Bastion, I learned on Wikipedia that “The game was built over the course of two years by a team of seven people split between San Jose and New York City.”
Senior software engineer salaries in either of those cities run around $100,000, so let’s assume that everyone worked for half that. $50K x 7 x 2 = $700,000, or 2.5 times our development budget. That’s just salaries, and doesn’t include office space, computers, tools, health insurance, marketing, or other expenses. I doubt Bastion came in under $1 million.
Let’s get real on game costs, please. Just because an indie developer works for seven years on a game while living in his parents’ basement does not mean the game was “free”. If he’s competent, he could have earned about $500,000 during that time by working for a game company instead of developing his indie game.
If you want quality games, you work with great people, and they are not cheap. Our team will be working for bare-cost-of-living income; that includes Lori and me. And it’s still going to cost at least $250K to make any sort of high-quality game. We are crazy you know - I made $110K/year at my last job, and Andrew a similar income. We’re making Hero-U as a labor of love, and asking for the bare minimum that will allow us to make a quality game. We could all make more by working for someone else on projects we don’t care about.
That’s all I have to say on the subject. Please don’t take this as me getting defensive; I’m just trying to educate people on the real costs of making games. There’s a reason Lori and I didn’t dive into indie game-making after leaving Sierra, and that’s that we wouldn’t have been able to pay our own bills, let alone hire or contract a team.
I always overlook the fees/cost of supporting the backers themselves threw rewards. Yeah, I can understand how you’re walking on a tight rope. Now i’m wishing you asked for more. lol Definitely if things go well, get those stretch goals up so we can see this project rolling into what you truly envision.
Stuart Bradley Newsom - Naughty Shinobi || Our Game: Shadow Over Isolation
Should be start getting worried…? Definitely not.
Famous last words. 
Regarding the graphics, do remember that the majority of your potential backers don’t know who you are. If you’re only aiming for us old-timers, then sure, the reason we back has little to do with the graphics and much (everything?) to do with you guys. I currently wouldn’t have backed Hero-U if it was the exact same project but came from someone else. Let’s hope there are enough of us old fans to reach $400k!
Edit: And I don’t mean to sound negative, I’m just concerned. As I’ve said earlier, I’ve seen my share of Kickstarter-failures, including some that were looking very solid indeed. So there’s not much room for error.
Should be start getting worried…? Definitely not.
Famous last words.
Regarding the graphics, do remember that the majority of your potential backers don’t know who you are. If you’re only aiming for us old-timers, then sure, the reason we back has little to do with the graphics and much (everything?) to do with you guys. I currently wouldn’t have backed Hero-U if it was the exact same project but came from someone else. Let’s hope there are enough of us old fans to reach $400k!
If I’ve understood correctly, Corey & Lori have planned Hero-U as a series. I guess the first game must sell well enough so they can fund the next game. Many QfG fans will get the game from Kickstarter, so Hero-U must be competitive and attractive also for people who may not know Corey & Lori Cole or Quest for Glory brand. Currently I’m somewhat suspicious about that… trying to sell a game with story & gameplay can be pretty difficult, especially when most games are said to have a great, epic and interesting story.
From 5 minutes research of Bastion, I learned on Wikipedia that “The game was built over the course of two years by a team of seven people split between San Jose and New York City.”
Senior software engineer salaries in either of those cities run around $100,000, so let’s assume that everyone worked for half that. $50K x 7 x 2 = $700,000, or 2.5 times our development budget. That’s just salaries, and doesn’t include office space, computers, tools, health insurance, marketing, or other expenses. I doubt Bastion came in under $1 million.
Well, from the source linked from Wikipedia:
“We started with two people and grew to seven. Gavin did all the gameplay, Greg Kasavin did all 3,000 lines of narration and half the levels, Jen Zee did all the 2D art, Darren Korb did all the sound and music, Logan Cunningham did the voice and Andrew Wang got us onto the console. If you take away even one of those things, we have no game and no success.”
http://gamasutra.com/view/news/38160/Supergiants_Amir_Rao_You_Dont_Have_To_Quit_Your_Day_Jobs_To_Go_Indie.php#.UIafb2fhw6E
So it’s not seven people working full-time on the game for two years. Converted into full-time employment over a two year period, the math would probably be 4-5 times two years:
$50K x 4.5 x 2 = $450,000, or 1,7 times your budget.
From what I know about the Bastion development, they didn’t spend a lot on additional stuff. Very far from $300k, is my guess, but I don’t know all the details.
It doesn’t change the fact that you’re on a very tight budget, I just think it puts the Bastion development in a slightly different light
Somehow, there’s something about a game developer posting in a public forum about production costs and the share that goes to Amazon and GOG that feels wrong to me. I realize game production is a tough business on many fronts but seriously, I don’t care about it. What I do care about however, is the chance of witnessing the design and artistic development of a game via regular updates and promo items.
To me, that’s the main reason I back a project: positive ideas and a great sense of anticipation, not the budget details or art costs or financial troubles. And frankly, alluding that your audience is clueless about such obstacles is not only annoying, but also indicates a lack of professionalism.
When fans express concerns about your art style, why not simply explain the advantages it has and how your game can benefit from it instead of lecturing them on business essentials?
i’d like to point out a point of confusion that people dont seem to be on the same page about, and maybe im the one whos confused, but i believe it works like this:
all tiers above the 50 get ~one~ of the 3 games included. But if you’d like to add 15 each you could get the other two as well. People have misunderstood this as “if you want any of them in the higher tiers you have to add 15.” And i think thats where the complaining is coming from.
Somehow, there’s something about a game developer posting in a public forum about production costs and the share that goes to Amazon and GOG that feels wrong to me. I realize game production is a tough business on many fronts but seriously, I don’t care about it. What I do care about however, is the chance of witnessing the design and artistic development of a game via regular updates and promo items.
To me, that’s the main reason I back a project: positive ideas and a great sense of anticipation, not the budget details or art costs or financial troubles. And frankly, alluding that your audience is clueless about such obstacles is not only annoying, but also indicates a lack of professionalism.
When fans express concerns about your art style, why not simply explain the advantages it has and how your game can benefit from it instead of lecturing them on business essentials?
Ok, fair enough. I answered specific comments and didn’t feel my answer would be believable if I said, “Um, no, Bastion cost a lot more than you think,” or “We can’t afford to give that away for less than $15,” without showing some real numbers. I’ll leave all that out from now on. It’s true that very few people want to know what goes on inside Pixar Studios - They just want to enjoy the resulting magic.
So, anyone want to know about why Hero-U will appeal to adventure gamers who haven’t played Quest for Glory? I’ll be happy to answer questions about design, story, puzzles, etc.
I’ll leave all that out from now on. It’s true that very few people want to know what goes on inside Pixar Studios - They just want to enjoy the resulting magic.
Sadly I know the ins and outs of Pixar…..more than 20 million to make a film? Hurts my head. -_-
Stuart Bradley Newsom - Naughty Shinobi || Our Game: Shadow Over Isolation
So, anyone want to know about why Hero-U will appeal to adventure gamers who haven’t played Quest for Glory? I’ll be happy to answer questions about design, story, puzzles, etc.
I am very interested in the game, but I would like to learn more about it. And I would really be interested to learn why Hero-U will appeal to adventure gamers in general. Since it’s going to be 60% RPG-40% adventure, I would really be interested to know what sort of puzzles it will incorporate. Will there be classic inventory-based adventure puzzles? Will there be conversation puzzles? How will the conversation system work in the game? Or will the puzzles be more like the puzzles in old classic RPG games like Neverwinter Nights? (I remember there were quite a few puzzles in the last expansion Hordes of the Underdark.) Are there going to be different options how to solve a particular problem (for example by solving a puzzle or by fighting)? How will the fighting system work? Do we get to chose what upgrades our character takes? Will there be an experience points-based upgrade system or will the character simply upgrade simply by using his abilities like in Elder Scrolls games? Will the whole game take place in the school or will it expand beyond its walls? Will there be loot? Will there be limited voice acting in key scenes or no voice-acting at all? Will the graphics in the final game be similar to the graphics in Macguffin’s Curse (which by the way I really enjoyed) or will they be more detailed?
Oh and please let there be a choice for widescreen resolutions. I have noticed that low budget games that support widescreen resolutions tend to look much more impressive compared to games with similar graphics that have black bars on each side or are stretched across the screen.
OK. I think I have bombarded you with enough questions for now.
That is quite a set of questions!
Hero-U will actually cater strongly to adventure gamers. With Andrew programming it and contributing to the design, I’m sure he’ll skew it towards the adventure side at any opportunity. So will our artists.
Puzzles: Inventory definitely, both finding the object to act as a “key” in some way, obtaining an object someone else wants, etc.
Conversation puzzles: Absolutely! We will have close-ups for the talkers. You will choose dialogue from a menu, usually a short version of what you want to say. One major difference between this game and Quest for Glory or old LucasArts games is that the conversations are designed to feel “organic”, so you will not be able to just click through every option in turn. When you say something, you will get a response, then the conversation will continue from there or end. We’ll probably allow occasional backtracking by talking to the same person again, but usually that will lead to a different conversation or the character refusing to talk to you.
I didn’t play Hordes of the Underdark, but we will have some puzzles more reminiscent of Zelda than of most adventure games. For example, we plan to make use of the MacGuffin’s Curse engine to allow some manipulation of large objects in the room. This will be used both for pure puzzles and for combat tactics. For example, if you’re in the wine cellar surrounded by angry rats, you might move a few barrels so they can only get to you one or two at a time.
As a Rogue, you will also become an expert in traps, both disarming and setting them. You can use traps to improve the odds in combat situations or to prepare your escape. You won’t necessarily do this to solve a particular game puzzle; you’ll use your skills when they seem useful or appropriate to you. This is the major reason we think of Hero-U as a role-playing game - You will often “solve puzzles” that we didn’t set for you. Of course, there are also plenty of traditional adventure game puzzles, but as in Quest for Glory, there are often multiple solutions to a problem.
The combat system is tactical and turn-based. Think of the catacombs as a giant chessboard. You can take advantage of other “pieces” (e.g. nearby objects), “make a move” by placing a trap, move around to get better tactical position, use your stealth ability to sneak around an enemy that hasn’t yet seen you, use flash powder to blind it (if it has eyes) so that you can get out of there, attack from a distance, then move, etc.
Combat uses an Action Point system - You can take as many actions in one turn as you have available points. For example, you might have 5 AP in a turn, major actions cost 4, minor actions cost 2, and movement costs 1. That means you could make move one square, attack, and defend. Or you could do a single major attack. Item use also costs AP. We will do extensive simulations early in the project to make the combat system balanced, fun, and solid.
We will cue you with text when an enemy is about to do a special attack. When you get that warning, you had better defend or dodge, because otherwise it’s going to hurt.
Ref upgrades, there are several types. You will be able to buy and find better equipment. You will learn new and improved Rogue skills from class, the library, in the catacombs (in several ways), and possibly from conversation puzzles. We are also following the University setting by occasionally allowing to take Electives. These courses give you special abilities off the main track, and are similar to a combination of World of Warcraft talents and professions. For example, taking Botany will allow you to find useful plants in the catacombs to sell or use to make poisons and potions.
The advancement system is a hybrid of level-based (e.g. D&D) and skill-based (e.g. QfG) approaches. Sometimes using a skill will improve your ability with it. In other cases - particularly the Electives - you will only be able to gain or improve them when you “gain a level” in the eyes of your Rogue instructor.
Locations: The game starts outside the school. Most of the exploration happens in the basement levels, or in the mysterious underground caverns and catacombs that you will have to discover. The rest is on the school grounds.
We want to have voice acting, and will add it if we reach a stretch goal. However, our higher priority is to make the game play and look great. Voice acting for our games is expensive because Lori and I write a *lot* of text (as you might gather from my posts here. ).
As for graphics, we are starting with the MacGuffin’s Curse look, but then we will turn our very talented artists loose. We will also have a number of background paintings such as the ones you see on the Kickstarter page. These will illustrate important scenes and serve as backdrops for conversation.
We will definitely support wide screens.
Wow. Great to get such detailed feedback from a game developer.
One more question. Will the game feature any companions? And if so, will they be playable or non-playable? I am really curious how the battle system will turn out. Recently I’ve tried the Demo of Age of Decadence that had a great combat system, but it was so frustratingly difficult that it actually defeated the purpose of being fun.
If I may make a suggestion regarding voice-acting, a nice middle-of-the-road solution might be to have voice acting only in a few selected important cut-scenes, and thus reduce its cost, in case you don’t make its stretch goal.
Also since the game will have such a strong RPG element it might be a good idea to contact the guys at RPG-Watch and RPG-Codex. They are sort of fanatics and way too obsessed with old-school RPGs, but if they like a project they support it passionately. (But please don’t listen to their ideas of balanced combat. They have been playing RPGs for so long that what is balanced for them is near impossible for the rest of us.)
We’ve talked about having a companion that has little effect on combat, and that makes its own decisions.
We are also looking into having another (NPC) student occasionally accompany you into the catacombs. Again, he/she would probably be autonomous. That one has technical issues, so we’ll have to experiment to find out if we can do it.
At the moment, Hero-U seems to be a hard-sell to both adventure game and RPG’ers. Each seems to think we’re too far skewed in the other direction. I plan to post more design notes on the project, but I’m not sure very many people will see/read them. Hero’s Quest created similar confusion, but Sierra’s marketing and the name similarity for King’s Quest got people to try the game back then. Once they did, both adventure gamers and role-players loved it, but it’s a really hard idea to get across.
A few recent interviews with the Coles:
On Mashable.com: http://mashable.com/2012/09/17/hero-u/
On Kotaku.com: http://kotaku.com/5953028/the-creators-of-quest-for-glory-want-to-make-a-western-version-of-persona?tag=hero_u
On RPGCodex.net: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=8549
On RockPaperShotgun.com: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/20/interv-u-lori-and-corey-cole-on-going-rogue/
In the New York Post (NYPost.com): http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/gamereport/interview_with_cori_cole_creator_fo3JcablCc214MdZhtEh1M
On AdventureGamers.com: http://www.adventuregamers.com/news/view/23082
should definitely explore getting gog to do an article/promotion.
Things have slowed down way too quickly, to the point where we’re going to start averaging about 1k per day, and we’re not even out of the first week. Thats not going to cut it.
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