Adventure Gamers - Forums

rtrooney - 14 September 2015 08:50 PM

Totally disagree. You either didn’t read my post, or decided to ignore it.

I read it, and I agree somewhat, but not fully.

Hans is not capable of empathy, sympathy, et al, and hasn’t been since he fell from the rock.

Sure he is. He’s not capable of it to the same extent as we are, but there is some of it.

So it’s NOT a Dick move. It’s exactly what you would expect from an individual who’s emotional growth was stunted at a very early age.

Stunted does not mean non-existent. The emotional growth that was already there before the accident did not get “reset” to zero, and just because it’s stunted does not mean it can’t still grow/evolve (even if only at a much slower pace than it would in a normal person).

You underestimate small children, imo.

Now that puts my mind to rest a little. It was the unification of Hans and Oscar, they came together as one. Ok, I really like that idea and makes me much less sad. Thanks for that.

Now, I can enjoy the rest of the game much more!

I have now also completed this part myself, so time for some thoughts.

I have said this before, but I will say it again, this part is by far my favourite part of the game. Not just because it is the most beautiful part of the game, and it imo has the best puzzles, but also because this is really the part where the plot thickens, and it is not just about continuing the journey any more. There is now also a new layer to the story, or perhaps it is something that has always been there, but now it is coming more to the surface.

As for the big dramatic moment in this part, then this is the third time I’m playing this game. I played it original several years ago, and I replayed it for the first time about a year ago, and on my first replay I had completely forgotten about Oscar’s death! Like everybody else it of course came as a bit of a shock to me, but it never really bothered me, and I never felt any resentment towards Hans for “killing” Oscar.

Part of the reason is probably, that I was never really that fond of Oscar, a lovely sidekick, perhaps, but he has also been a bit of a pain in the a**, and a constant roadblock, instead of an actual helpful sidekick.
But a more important reason is that I think it is a very beautiful scene, not just visually but also story-wise, and an important part of the story being told, though I must admit that there is something about the purpose it serves, that I had never really been able to put my finger on - until now.

crabapple - 15 September 2015 11:19 AM

I thought of the merging of Hans with Oscar’s body as more of a reunification than the “death” of Oscar. Where did Oscar’s personality go? Did that die or is it merely suppressed? I don’t think the game told us enough to be sure.

(Added spoiler tags)

I think that is an excellent point, and what I couldn’t quite put my finger on. This is not just the death of Oscar and Hans taking over the empty shell, it is a merge or unification between Oscar and Hans, and the being that rises from the sick bed, is part Hans and part Oscar, or more accurately the result of their unification.

There is also I believe another aspect to this. Remember in the dream sequence in Valadilene, Hans asks Kate “Do you believe that automatons are here to help us in our hour of need?”. You could rephrase that to “technology is a tool to serve man, not to exist for its own purpose”, at least that is how I read it. Oscar might be an intelligent robot or automaton with a personality, but at the end of the day he is only a machine build for a specific purpose, and not to exist for his/its own purpose. At least that is how I believe Hans sees Oscar, though I believe Kate has a different view on the subject.
I don’t agree that Oscar being sentient, or at least capable of simulating being sentient, is an accident, but it is also worth mentioning that the other extreme, that automatons have a “soul”, is something that we only have Oscar word for. There is no indication that this is what Hans believes.

rtrooney - 14 September 2015 08:50 PM

Hans is not capable of empathy, sympathy, et al, and hasn’t been since he fell from the rock.

I agree with Timovieman here.
There is another exchange between Kate and Hans in the dream sequence: “Of course I know Oscar. He’s an old friend of mine. I’m very fond of him” - “yes I know.”. This to me indicates that Hans is both very much aware of the consequences of what will happen and has enough empathy to fell guilty about it.
But his empathy is towards Kate, because he knows that she has grown attached to Oscar, I don’t think that he himself views Oscar as anything more than an invention he created and a tool to reach his goal, similar to the train and the many other inventions he has created. I also think that these two different views on Oscar, Kate’s more romantic or emotional view of Oscar as a person, and Hans’s more pragmatic view of Oscar being a tool, is an essential part of the story being told.
I don’t think that we can or should simply dismiss Hans’s point of view, as a result of his accident, but I also don’t believe that we should simply dismiss it as a dick move. Both are imo valid point of views.

TimovieMan - 14 September 2015 05:37 PM

I’m a bit baffled by the latest New York cutscene. Now it seems that the chase is off and we’re completely done with New York, and they’re done with us. If that’s really the case, then why were they included in the game at all? It seems so pointless - filler that has NOTHING to do with the rest of our journey (at least not in this second game)...

The whole New York part, seems to a large degree to be a kind of comic relief. The tough New York detective fails where Kate succeeds and can’t even deal with a small obstacle like a bear or some snow, even though Kate has overcome far greater obstacles. But there is I believe also another purpose for these scenes, and it is I believe it is the same purpose that the dream sequence in Valadilene serves, to reminds us that the story didn’t start in Romansbourg. To remind us that this is part of a greater story that started in the first game, and that the world is larger than just the train and Siberia/Syberia. The New York parts might not have been as well executed as the Valadilene dream sequence, and the game might have worked without it, but I still think it adds to the game, and doesn’t detract anything from it.

(continued)

TimovieMan - 14 September 2015 05:37 PM

Reached the penguins.
And seeing as how they’re in the wrong hemisphere, I’ve a feeling we’re not in Kansas anymore.

I agree - and in fact I believe this is the most important aspect of the whole game.

If we took a plane and flew to Kate’s current position, or for that matter just looked it up on google earth, then I don’t think we would see neither Kate nor the penguins. I think that they have left the real world!
In fact in the last New York scene, Cantin more or less tells us this: “Kate Walker’s gone, far away ... into another world.”. He probably meant this more figuratively that literally, put it is nevertheless a very specific way of phrasing it, and perhaps a hint from Sokal as to how we should view this?

Also some of you might have noticed that I subtitled this part “Charon”, as a reference to the ferryman in Greek mythology, who carries the souls of the deceased across the rivers Styx and Acheron into the underworld. The reason I did that is because I see many similarities between the mythology and what is happening in the game here.
We have a ship made of dead mammoths, that is being pulled by the sea currents without the passengers aboard having any influence or means of steering the ships. It crosses water to go between a real world place and a place that (as far as we know) only exists in myths, and where (according to the myth) mammoths exists even though they were suppose to have become extinct 10,000 years ago - and on top of that we now see penguins, even though they don’t live in the Arctic!
The similarities are simply too many to ignore imo, and I believe this part was heavily inspired by the Greek mythology, and that we are now crossing or already have crossed into the world of the dead!

Considering that Syberia is huge and never charted - I almost have to think we are in the land of the dead.

However, Kate does come back - there will be a Syberia 3!

Part 5: There be Mammoths

After the dramatic moments in the last part, it is now time to join Kate and Hans on the last part of their journey, and see this came through to a hopefully satisfying conclusion - except of course that this is only the end of this game, and Kate’s journey will continue in Syberia 3.

You have until .. well technically you have all the time in the world, as this is the last part of this CPT, but I nevertheless like to have a deadline, so the official deadline is Thursday evening the 24 September.


P.S. Remember spoiler tags!

P.P.S. Unless the screenshots you plan to post are very spoilerish, then there is no need to delay posting them until after the deadlines.
I will however delay posting my own screenshots from part 4 a couple of days more, to give those of you that have delayed it, a couple of days to post yours first.

Iznogood - 15 September 2015 03:12 PM

rtrooney - 14 September 2015 08:50 PM

Hans is not capable of empathy, sympathy, et al, and hasn’t been since he fell from the rock.

I agree with Timovieman here.

There is another exchange between Kate and Hans [spoiler]in the dream sequence: “Of course I know Oscar. He’s an old friend of mine. I’m very fond of him” - “yes I know.”. This to me indicates that Hans is both very much aware of the consequences of what will happen and has enough empathy to fell guilty about it.

You do recall that I have not played this part of the game? You did ask me to continue my participation? The computer is reasonably running again, but I have not had the time to reinstall, nor play from the time we arrived at the village.

I don’t recall the dream sequence, but I’ll take your word for what it contained. But, after all, it was a dream! I’ve had dreams. We’ve all had dreams. Many, if not most of mine didn’t come close to representing any sore of reality. That Hans dreams about the fantasy of having emotions doesn’t mean he has them when he wakes up.

The opinions I stated about Hans’ emotional age are the ones I held when I last played the game. I still hold them.

As for Timovieman’s statement that I must have a low opinion of children, he may be right. Having raised two daughters through the age of ten and beyond, I have witnessed how incredibly insensitive children can be at times. If this was the cut-off point for Hans’ emotional development, then he could very well be the “one-trick-pony” sociopath I think he is. That one trick being a fixation on mammoths.

rtrooney - 15 September 2015 08:52 PM

As for Timovieman’s statement that I must have a low opinion of children, he may be right. Having raised two daughters through the age of ten and beyond, I have witnessed how incredibly insensitive children can be at times. If this was the cut-off point for Hans’ emotional development, then he could very well be the “one-trick-pony” sociopath I think he is. That one trick being a fixation on mammoths.

The key words in this paragraph imo are “at times”. Surely you’ve witnesses how incredibly sensitive they can be at other times as well?

And as for Hans, in every town we’ve visited so far (first game included), there have been people that remember Hans, and remember him fondly. The automatons he’s created everywhere have shown a vast array of uses as well. I don’t think a “one-trick-pony” sociopath fits the bill all that well…

SoccerDude28 - 15 September 2015 11:27 PM

Hans on the other hand created this automaton for the sole purpose to get him to Syberia. The fact that he has a “soul” is not haphazard like some folks here imply, but is a design of Hans I believe. He probably gave it a personality to make his journey to Syberia more enjoyable,  and that soul we talk about is nothing more an advanced AI in Hans’s point of view. Also, remember that when Hans designed Oscar, he did not know that Kate will end up joining him in the journey, so he did not think about how that will make Kate feel (because he was unaware that Kate even existed when he was working on the design). The fact that Kate is there is just pure chance.

He didn’t know that Kate would end up joining him on his journey, no, but he thought his sister Anna would. He thus must have considered how his sister would feel, because I’m sure Oscar’s personality was also meant to keep Anna company until she reached Hans.

I would like people to put themselves in Hans’s shoes. If we were playing as Hans and not as Kate, and seeing things from his perspective, I think we would have thought very differently about the Oscar scene. This is his creation after all, and a mere tool in his mind to assist him in his long life dream.

This is why I say that we have every right to be angry at Hans (we had built a bond with Oscar, after all, and Oscar was VERY reluctant about his imminent death), but we can’t hate Hans for it because he doesn’t experience the death of Oscar in the same manner we do.

I think I’m now ready for my audition for “The Wolf Among Us” game.

Ahtishoo! Hans, you really must do something about your dandruff problem!

I suppose you have a good point there, how much AI did Oscar have? Was he just following his programming?  For me, I did find myself attached to Oscar after two adventure games and was sad to see him go.

Anyway, I’ve almost completed the game - the end is very near.