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LGBT Topics in Adventure Games

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Venkman - 23 June 2017 11:52 AM

Dan himself said that GTA is male power fantasy and will always be Americana

Right, so he is an idiot. Violent “male power fantasies” are the very last thing we still need in games, and adventure gamers have traditionally been on board with that for over 20 years.

Who is “we”? If it is a big publisher like Rockstar needing to sell millions of games to make big megabucks, then violent male power fantasies are very much needed.

     
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Venkman - 23 June 2017 11:52 AM
nomadsoul - 21 June 2017 01:36 PM

auteur should do what they themselves feel, giving to pressure of societal politics and need is death of art

Creating art is not some magical process where the work comes out of the artist’s brain fully formed, and then making any adjustments whatsoever to “the original vision” is a bastardization. Once in a while perhaps it happens like that, but especially for something huge like a game it’s going to be a slow process of creation, changing, cutting, editing, etc.

You’re essentially saying that artists should never take any feedback whatsoever, and that’s ridiculous.

Even for something like a novel where there is only one author working largely alone, they have almost always had an official editor cutting things and suggesting changes, as well as many friends and family reading and giving suggestions.

If I write a book starring a bunch of white males, get some heat for it, think to myself “hmm they have a point, a diverse cast would be more interesting, would better represent the population, and might even do some political good”, and then write the sequel with more minorities, this is perfectly fine and consistent with art. The assertion that me responding to that feedback is the “death of art” is idiocy.

Hi Venkman, a true artist whether they be a poet,  painter, writer, filmmaker or game maker etc will have an initial concept the details of which might be swirling & not clear for a while but will eventually evolve & grow in time. A little consultation or editing may not be a bad thing BUT the minute they consider pandering to what every other person thinks & changing things drastically is the time they should consider how uncreative they actually are & go for a ‘proper’ day job!
Popular films & games cater for what they think the general public want but as good as some of them are they cannot beat those more sincere works that were not produced via collective opinions!

Yes, I have to agree responding to anyone else’s suggestions that prompts you to change anything in your novel so drastically is the “death of art” as it should come from your own soul & no-one else’s!

 

     
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BitingWit - 22 June 2017 10:00 AM

Which raises another question - why are adventure games so prudish? We have TV shows and movies with full sex scenes, but not AGs?

GTA guys had GayTony DLC with male nudity, no body complained and it was great Gay character, also Red dead has good written female NPC cast like Bonnie
RDr2 will have female lead too perhaps
Again if its flexible for setting then one should go all out and if one can represent minorities naturally
I would have rated life is strange higher if it was more natural with adult cast and flowed like Blue is the warmest color with full sex scenes
Agree on that, need bold Devs but hard to publish games like that
Maybe some Indie game in future

Gabe - 23 June 2017 04:34 AM

Nomadsoul did you get Get Even?

No yet Tongue

Venkman - 23 June 2017 11:52 AM

You’re essentially saying that artists should never take any feedback whatsoever, and that’s ridiculous.

No i am saying i prefer , create a product then sell it rather than find need and wants of market and then create based on that

cyfoyjvx - 23 June 2017 12:48 PM

Who is “we”? If it is a big publisher like Rockstar needing to sell millions of games to make big megabucks, then violent male power fantasies are very much needed.

This we is a problem, he basically wants customer tailored product like some those Clothes retail products or Restaurant item

You know why Schafer to Ragnar exist? They had their essence in the game, you can tell a Schafer/Ron game so much that if sequel doesnt hold up you can say hey it doesnt have that charm
Imagine someone telling Schafer to scrap Grim paper like Mexican folklore theme and turn into actual human cast set in Mafia world , thats the danger of forced input
Also the reason why Schafer had issues with selling his pitch to big AAAs
I am sure DoubleFine can make countless Sesamestreet Kinect games but you really want that from DFine?

Its also the reason why Japanese gaming industry is so Director/Producer given
Their trademark style and DNA can be found in each part, same reason why most of the Japanese games highlight Directors in promotional material

chrissie - 23 June 2017 01:02 PM

Yes, I have to agree responding to anyone else’s suggestions that prompts you to change anything in your novel so drastically is the “death of art” as it should come from your own soul & no-one else’s

Its esp more easy to control an Indie game , even with restrictions one could play in within them and still knock it out of the park
Witness is a result of an auteur which is also neither forced nor pretentious
As much as i would have liked exploration music in the game, if he didnt want it, so be it

 

     

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Venkman - 23 June 2017 11:52 AM

If I write a book starring a bunch of white males, get some heat for it, think to myself “hmm they have a point, a diverse cast would be more interesting, would better represent the population, and might even do some political good”, and then write the sequel with more minorities, this is perfectly fine and consistent with art.

What if you have no first hand knowledge of what it’s like to be a member of one of these minorities, and no one you know has anything but cliche ideas they got from watching movies and TV? Are you going to write these minority characters the same way you’d write white males? Are you going to write them as cliches?

Say you manage to find a co-writer who is one of the minorities. Do you think every member of your audience will believe your minority character is realistic when all they’ve seen are the cliches?

No matter what you do, you’ll be criticized by someone. If it’s going to diminish your story, or take time away from fixing something else, you’re better off sticking with your original idea.

     
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giom - 22 June 2017 01:02 PM

I’ve rated that game 3.5 and probably would shave half a point now. I was disappointed mostly because of the story.
GK had very good and deep stories and even the novelizations of the games were quite fun to read. I don’t believe that there’s enough meat in Moebius to make a good novel. I also really disliked some of the graphic not so much due to quality but more as a visceral reaction (those teeths creeped me out).

What creeped me out about Malachi was his distorted limbs and overall crooked and warped appearance. I couldn’t believe him as human, let alone as any kind of sex object. When that woman talked with David about Malachi having past one-night stands, I thought she was a crazy woman talking crazy $h!t. I didn’t believe a word she said.

So going back to what Jane Jensen said in that interview nomadsoul posted the link for, I think the character design in Moebius worked against her intentions.

     
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I never viewed Gabriel and Von Glower’s relationship in GK2 as gay, or even bi, or anything in the realm of sexuality. I think what people are interpreting as gay themes or acts are simply due to the werewolf nature of the game, the fact that these are creatures who, even as humans, are tapped into their primal nature and tuned into the very deep connection with each other. Gabriel and Von Glower have that deep connection, but it doesn’t have to have anything to do with sexuality or being attracted to each other; the connection could be on a deeper level, spiritual maybe. It’s there for those that want to see it that way, but to me it went beyond a simple “gay” moniker.

     

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who would have ever thought that GK2 and Van Glower were gay? The cut scene showed Gabriel in bed with a women that Van Glower set him up with.

     
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what i ve been thinking arent here any LGBTs at this conversation

     
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Advie - 23 June 2017 07:57 PM

what i ve been thinking arent here any LGBTs at this conversation

Holla

     
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Advie - 23 June 2017 07:57 PM

what i ve been thinking arent here any LGBTs at this conversation

I’ve gone to respond several times but thought better of it.  Most everyone is talking sense anyway so I’ve nothing to add.

     
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CroGamer - 22 June 2017 08:14 AM

I’m pretty sure Jane Jensen is considering it to be homosexual. On her Reddit AME she said that she always wanted to continue the Malachi/David storyline, and that she still might write a book in the Moebious universe that would ‘probably get kinkier’.

Also this i came across,

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/jane-jensens-pinkerton-road-studio-moebius-closed-down.70917/page-22#post-4526928

     

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nomadsoul - 24 June 2017 08:39 PM
CroGamer - 22 June 2017 08:14 AM

I’m pretty sure Jane Jensen is considering it to be homosexual. On her Reddit AME she said that she always wanted to continue the Malachi/David storyline, and that she still might write a book in the Moebious universe that would ‘probably get kinkier’.

Also this i came across,

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/jane-jensens-pinkerton-road-studio-moebius-closed-down.70917/page-22#post-4526928

The only post on that page that has anything to do with the topic at hand is a guy stating that Jane Jensen should have kept her work with gay themes private because it is “embarassing”. I honestly don’t quite get what kind of a point you’re trying to prove with that here. That game designers shouldn’t have such topics in their work (even if they’re interested in them)?

     
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CroGamer - 25 June 2017 09:13 AM
nomadsoul - 24 June 2017 08:39 PM
CroGamer - 22 June 2017 08:14 AM

I’m pretty sure Jane Jensen is considering it to be homosexual. On her Reddit AME she said that she always wanted to continue the Malachi/David storyline, and that she still might write a book in the Moebious universe that would ‘probably get kinkier’.

Also this i came across,

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/jane-jensens-pinkerton-road-studio-moebius-closed-down.70917/page-22#post-4526928

The only post on that page that has anything to do with the topic at hand is a guy stating that Jane Jensen should have kept her work with gay themes private because it is “embarassing”. I honestly don’t quite get what kind of a point you’re trying to prove with that here. That game designers shouldn’t have such topics in their work (even if they’re interested in them)?

Its a followup comment on that site
I posted it because it sounds inline with your comment

she still might write a book in the Moebious universe that would ‘probably get kinkier’

So yes you are right
Avoid the embarrassing part, nothing to do with it

Do you have reddit QA link?

     

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nomadsoul - 25 June 2017 04:26 PM
CroGamer - 25 June 2017 09:13 AM
nomadsoul - 24 June 2017 08:39 PM
CroGamer - 22 June 2017 08:14 AM

I’m pretty sure Jane Jensen is considering it to be homosexual. On her Reddit AME she said that she always wanted to continue the Malachi/David storyline, and that she still might write a book in the Moebious universe that would ‘probably get kinkier’.

Also this i came across,

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/jane-jensens-pinkerton-road-studio-moebius-closed-down.70917/page-22#post-4526928

The only post on that page that has anything to do with the topic at hand is a guy stating that Jane Jensen should have kept her work with gay themes private because it is “embarassing”. I honestly don’t quite get what kind of a point you’re trying to prove with that here. That game designers shouldn’t have such topics in their work (even if they’re interested in them)?

Its a followup comment on that site
I posted it because it sounds inline with your comment

she still might write a book in the Moebious universe that would ‘probably get kinkier’

So yes you are right
Avoid the embarrassing part, nothing to do with it

Do you have reddit QA link?

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2irxex/im_jane_jensen_game_designer_and_author_ama/

“I’m glad to hear that! I love the Malachi/David storyline too. I always intended to continue it, but at this point I’m not sure there’ll be another game. If not, maybe I’ll do a couple of books in the Moebius universe. They would be fun to write (and I could probably get kinkier too. lol)”

     
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