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Saint Kotar
Well, I was probably very close to the end but I’ve just uninstalled this game. No matter how it’s viewed, as a Black Mirror clone, a “visual novel” etc., it’s ultimately just a very bad game in my view. It mostly consists of watching stiff 3D characters talk to each other without moving, often not even facing each other (or the player for that matter) during the endless dialogues. In at least four scenes the devs haven’t even bothered to put the NPC:s to which the MC speaks in plain view, hiding them behind windows, doors etc. obviously just in order to avoid the programming work.
The English voice acting is pretty terrible throughout, the exception being the guy who does a certain bizarre and legless sect leader whose name I’ve forgotten.
Ok looking background art is a positive, but in other regards the game is a bit of a technical mess, with characters running on the spot only to the next moment glide over the ground without moving their feet.
Sorry, I just can’t find much to like about this one.
........ The English voice acting is pretty terrible throughout, the exception being the guy who does a certain bizarre and legless sect leader whose name I’ve forgotten.
I have to disagree Veovis because there were quite a few reasonable performances.
Ok looking background art is a positive, but in other regards the game is a bit of a technical mess, with characters running on the spot only to the next moment glide over the ground without moving their feet.
I think I experienced only one slight glitch.
Sorry, I just can’t find much to like about this one.
Veovis - I just feel sad that you got so far & gave up but kudos to you for persisting to that point. 
It mostly consists of watching stiff 3D characters talk to each other without moving, often not even facing each other (or the player for that matter) during the endless dialogues.
To be fair, that could be the description for most “classic” adventures of the 80s, 90s and 00s. (If we expand it to include 2D characters)
So if the game is being promoted by the developer as in the vein of GK and Broken Sword… well, fair enough.
But, of course, that just meant the dialogues and voice acting of those games was good enough to sustain interest. Which doesn’t seem to be the case in this game.
It mostly consists of watching stiff 3D characters talk to each other without moving, often not even facing each other (or the player for that matter) during the endless dialogues.
To be fair, that could be the description for most “classic” adventures of the 80s, 90s and 00s. (If we expand it to include 2D characters)
So if the game is being promoted by the developer as in the vein of GK and Broken Sword… well, fair enough.
But, of course, that just meant the dialogues and voice acting of those games was good enough to sustain interest. Which doesn’t seem to be the case in this game.
Yes, the problem with this game is the developers have promoted a nostalgia trip with a lot of the elements that made those games work that they haven’t incorporated. As said I’ll post a little more which will include some history but meanwhile the current game I think’s okay just badly marketed.
Veovis - I just feel sad that you got so far & gave up but kudos to you for persisting to that point.
You come from a good place in this chrissie and I can appreciate that, but seriously I have a hard time understanding how anyone can consider this a good game, even taking into account taste, subjectivity, to each his own etc. Please don’t feel bad for me, but equally, please don’t feel bad for developers who happen to have started threads at the AG forums to promote a game and then fail to deliver something worthwhile. Ultimately it will only be counterproductive and make people waste their money and time. With that said; if you seriously like this one, please continue promoting it!:)
To be fair, that could be the description for most “classic” adventures of the 80s, 90s and 00s. (If we expand it to include 2D characters).
Agreed. Maybe in 20 years we will appreciate stiff 3D characters as we now do the retro graphics style of The Darkside Detective and the likes. I wouldn’t bet on it though.
Came in here to clarify that there is no way to influence Steam reviews other than the reviewer changing their mind for whatever reason and switching from negative to positive or viceversa. This sometimes happens if the user is complaining about something which gets solved, or progresses through the game and warms up to it, and it also often happens after a creator leaves a developer comment explaining themselves, etc.
Having said that, imho dev comments should only be used for clarification purposes (e.g. “we’ll definitely fix that”, or “you are misrepresenting our game and here’s why”).
Devs have no way of deleting reviews, and Steam takes review manipulation very, *very* seriously. Accusing a developer of manipulating their score is more often than not pointless. Even if you wanted to, there’s no way to achieve it. Even those so-called suspicious reviews from accounts that only have one game in them - d’oh, everyone has friends who aren’t gamers or haven’t gamed in months, but will make a Steam or GOG account to buy their friend’s game and support them. Nothing about that contradicts Steam’s policies, nor is it immoral in any way. I’ve made one time accounts on weird websites to support my friends more than once. The moment you’ve purchased a game you are entitled to your review, even if it’s complete lunacy (and Cthulhu knows we’ve gotten our share of those).
PS
I’ll just add one more thing, a bit of a human perspective coming from someone who’s constantly on both sides of Steam reviews, and this doesn’t apply just to this game, but to basically all indies: for most people on these forums, this is just another game you can thrash without thinking twice about it; for the people that made them they’re very personal projects and everything stings much worse than you could imagine. I admit, I see a lot of developers (especially at their first game) goof up and get too emotional, too defensive or aggressive; I’m not defending these stances.
I’m just asking everyone to cool down a bit - asking the devs to try and not take every bit of criticism personally (from my experience, it takes 50+ negative reviews to achieve Zen state, filter out the hateful nonsense and learn from valid criticism), and also asking the players to consider that ultimately these are people who’ve poured a lot of effort into their games for you to enjoy. Of course you’re entitled to your opinion once your hard earned buck has gone the way of the developers; but no matter how bad the game is (again, talking about indies in general, not SK) I promise you, you can be harsh and fair without trampling someone’s feelings in the process. Being kind to each other is how games improve, and that benefits everyone.
Came in here to clarify that there is no way to influence Steam reviews other than the reviewer changing their mind for whatever reason and switching from negative to positive or viceversa. This sometimes happens if the user is complaining about something which gets solved, or progresses through the game and warms up to it, and it also often happens after a creator leaves a developer comment explaining themselves, etc.
Having said that, imho dev comments should only be used for clarification purposes (e.g. “we’ll definitely fix that”, or “you are misrepresenting our game and here’s why”).
Devs have no way of deleting reviews, and Steam takes review manipulation very, *very* seriously. Accusing a developer of manipulating their score is more often than not pointless. Even if you wanted to, there’s no way to achieve it. Even those so-called suspicious reviews from accounts that only have one game in them - d’oh, everyone has friends who aren’t gamers or haven’t gamed in months, but will make a Steam or GOG account to buy their friend’s game and support them. Nothing about that contradicts Steam’s policies, nor is it immoral in any way. I’ve made one time accounts on weird websites to support my friends more than once. The moment you’ve purchased a game you are entitled to your review, even if it’s complete lunacy (and Cthulhu knows we’ve gotten our share of those).
PS
I’ll just add one more thing, a bit of a human perspective coming from someone who’s constantly on both sides of Steam reviews, and this doesn’t apply just to this game, but to basically all indies: for most people on these forums, this is just another game you can thrash without thinking twice about it; for the people that made them they’re very personal projects and everything stings much worse than you could imagine. I admit, I see a lot of developers (especially at their first game) goof up and get too emotional, too defensive or aggressive; I’m not defending these stances.
I’m just asking everyone to cool down a bit - asking the devs to try and not take every bit of criticism personally (from my experience, it takes 50+ negative reviews to achieve Zen state, filter out the hateful nonsense and learn from valid criticism), and also asking the players to consider that ultimately these are people who’ve poured a lot of effort into their games for you to enjoy. Of course you’re entitled to your opinion once your hard earned buck has gone the way of the developers; but no matter how bad the game is (again, talking about indies in general, not SK) I promise you, you can be harsh and fair without trampling someone’s feelings in the process. Being kind to each other is how games improve, and that benefits everyone.
I appreciate you trying to put a positive spin on things, but your contradicting yourself to an extent. Leaving comments as a dev do influence reviews, both positive and negatively. When you constantly go around saying you’re a small team and put out a game in 13th months when it was obviously not ready to be released is trying to Garner sympathy and get people to change their review/stance to an extent. The inverse is also possible, threatening to sue will cause people to hate you and your game. All of it has influence.
Now as far as friends and family posting reviews go, I 100% disagree with you, if you get your friend, a wife or a co-worker to write a review who only played the game for an hour and then act like it’s the best adventure game of all time, then I think that is stacking the deck, Point Blank period. That is a deceiving practice. I’m sure it happens all the time but that doesn’t make it right.
When you are asking people for money or charging for a game you should expect feedback. A good game is a good game, a bad game is a bad game. I don’t care if it’s made by Ubisoft or by a three-man team from Yugoslavia, everybody gets judged the same at least with me.
Leaving comments as a dev do influence reviews, both positive and negatively. When you constantly go around saying you’re a small team and put out a game in 13th months when it was obviously not ready to be released is trying to Garner sympathy and get people to change their review/stance to an extent. The inverse is also possible, threatening to sue will cause people to hate you and your game. All of it has influence.
Sure, which is why I’ve elaborated on what I think are valid reasons to leave developer comments on Steam. That influence is Ok with Steam and sanctioned by them, that’s why you have the dev comment feature. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Now as far as friends and family posting reviews go, I 100% disagree with you, if you get your friend, a wife or a co-worker to write a review who only played the game for an hour and then act like it’s the best adventure game of all time, then I think that is stacking the deck, Point Blank period. That is a deceiving practice. I’m sure it happens all the time but that doesn’t make it right.
Well, I 120% disagree with YOU! 😄 But seriously, you are assuming these people are manipulated into expressing opinions that are not their own. That’s not the case. I can pay to go see a classical music concert where my violinist friend is playing and be in awe of how good it was, even if it might have actually not been that great by connoisseur standards. That’s not stacking the decks, that’s just me ranting and raving about how awesome my friend is. My opinion is just as valid. Same with games - we leave different reviews for different reasons. I admit I probably have a positive bias when it comes to indie games, I rarely ever leave negative reviews, probably because I empathize more with how hard it is to make these damn things, but guess what - my biased opinion is just as valid as anybody else’s. You can’t tell me the goofball that says a game is absolutely terrible when 99% of other reviews praise the game has a more valid opinion. There is no such thing as an objective review, whether they’re your close personal friends or complete strangers. You paid the fare, you get to rate the driver.
In my humble opinion, reviews are only valuable taken in big quantities, e.g. the mixed/positive/negative ratings on Steam. The same game will get “Best game EVER!” and “utter garbage fire, ruined my week” reviews back-to-back.
When you are asking people for money or charging for a game you should expect feedback. A good game is a good game, a bad game is a bad game. I don’t care if it’s made by Ubisoft or by a three-man team from Yugoslavia, everybody gets judged the same at least with me.
As a random player that cares nothing for the scene, sure - fair.
As a member of a community that loves adventure games, not sure it’s in your best interest. For the past 10+ years we’ve been absolutely swimming in adventure games, to the point that there are complaints about adventure game kickstarter threads on a forum. Dedicated. To adventure games. What the… Anyway, here’s a sad reality: the vast majority of these indie adventures fail financially, in that the studios can’t sustain themselves. For now, there are enough newcomers bringing up the rear that we can be picky, but I have a slight feeling that as we get farther and farther away from the 90s, this torrent will slowly become a dribble, and we’ll wish there were Kickstarters for these damn things. Call me a pessimist, but I think that’s where we are going.
Anyway, apologies to everyone for the slight derail. I don’t think there was any review manipulation involved. Responding to reviews as a developer is absolutely within the dev’s right, and sanctioned by Steam. It’s not advisable, but you can respond to each one individually if you so desire, and you’re still well within what they’re Ok with. If it were so easy to manipulate them, SK wouldn’t have mixed reviews on Steam now. It’s that simple.
If you get friends and family to post reviews, then its a problem, bc as you pointed out they have a major bias, your not getting an unfiltered opinion of said game, and its tricking the readers of the review. Thats like somebody wanting to learn about trump who never heard of him watching a cnn person, or watching a fox news anchor about biden, your getting maybe 50% of truth. Although it would be funny to read a review where a mom says this game made by my son is really bad do not play. So we will never agree on that.
I also stand on my stance of endless kickstarters posted on here. I gave you a shout out bc your a dev who actually participates on the forum as a whole, not just your game threads. When devs just come here to ask for money and add nothing, it gets old quickly, at least for me and several others.
As far as everything else goes, you know i ended up not liking gibbious and had serious issues with it, but there is obvious very talented people on your team. I dont see that with saint kotar, there is a reason why so many people are scratching their heads with the glowing reviews some are giving it.
As far as everything else goes, you know i ended up not liking gibbious and had serious issues with it, but there is obvious very talented people on your team. I dont see that with saint kotar, there is a reason why so many people are scratching their heads with the glowing reviews some are giving it.
You hit the hammer on the nail here I think. I too did not care for Gibbous but it obviously came from folks who genuinely wanted to and believed they had created something good.
With Saint Kotar I can’t shake the feeling of have being fooled and I regretted having paid for something that the developers’ themselves must have understood not being a commercially viable product. Yet another proof of why these Kickstarter thingies are generally not worth supporting. I don’t anymore (unless it’s for an official Riven upgrade…).
If you get friends and family to post reviews, then its a problem, bc as you pointed out they have a major bias, your not getting an unfiltered opinion of said game, and its tricking the readers of the review.
Sorry, you’ve completely missed my point. You are assuming developers have the nerve, time, audacity and frankly sheer idiocy to get friends and family to post reviews. That shit does not happen. People who know you and like you buy your game, and unless it’s utter dreck they’ll leave a positive review. You don’t have to get anyone to buy your game, they will do it. You can’t stop them, nor should you. I don’t have to buy the games my friends release on Steam; they are not asking or forcing me, I do it ‘cause I like this genre and ‘cause generally they’re good products I enjoy. I’ve enjoyed Guard Duty, and I’m looking forward to Grundislav’s Rosewater. Should I not be allowed to review them because we know each other? C’mon now. This niche is so tiny, I would soon be banned from reviewing any new adventure game…
As for Kickstarters, I don’t have the time to participate in these forums as much as I’d like to, ultimately it’s the majority that will decide, but banning indie devs from promoting their games here would be weird, considering that most adventure games 1) are indie, and (the ones that have a modicum of budget) 2) are funded on Kickstarter. I’ve discovered a bunch of projects via these forums which I’ve supported, and if I’m not mistaken Saint Kotar was one of them. If mods decide so I’m Ok with both my threads being removed, ultimately I just think it’s weird that adventure fans complain about adventure projects taking up space on their forums 🤷♀️
And that concludes my contribution to this thread, I’ll keep playing Saint Kotar when I get the chance and leave an honest review like I always do.
As far as everything else goes, you know i ended up not liking gibbious and had serious issues with it, but there is obvious very talented people on your team. I dont see that with saint kotar, there is a reason why so many people are scratching their heads with the glowing reviews some are giving it.
You hit the hammer on the nail here I think. I too did not care for Gibbous but it obviously came from folks who genuinely wanted to and believed they had created something good.
With Saint Kotar I can’t shake the feeling of have being fooled and I regretted having paid for something that the developers’ themselves must have understood not being a commercially viable product. Yet another proof of why these Kickstarter thingies are generally not worth supporting. I don’t anymore (unless it’s for an official Riven upgrade…).
Yes, although i think the saint kotar game was not a malicious cash grab at all, just people who had no idea what they were doing but knew what buzzwords to use to sell a game. I never hated the devs, just knew what it would be back in 17 or 18.
If you get friends and family to post reviews, then its a problem, bc as you pointed out they have a major bias, your not getting an unfiltered opinion of said game, and its tricking the readers of the review.
Sorry, you’ve completely missed my point. You are assuming developers have the nerve, time, audacity and frankly sheer idiocy to get friends and family to post reviews. That shit does not happen. People who know you and like you buy your game, and unless it’s utter dreck they’ll leave a positive review. You don’t have to get anyone to buy your game, they will do it. You can’t stop them, nor should you. I don’t have to buy the games my friends release on Steam; they are not asking or forcing me, I do it ‘cause I like this genre and ‘cause generally they’re good products I enjoy. I’ve enjoyed Guard Duty, and I’m looking forward to Grundislav’s Rosewater. Should I not be allowed to review them because we know each other? C’mon now. This niche is so tiny, I would soon be banned from reviewing any new adventure game…
As for Kickstarters, I don’t have the time to participate in these forums as much as I’d like to, ultimately it’s the majority that will decide, but banning indie devs from promoting their games here would be weird, considering that most adventure games 1) are indie, and (the ones that have a modicum of budget) 2) are funded on Kickstarter. I’ve discovered a bunch of projects via these forums which I’ve supported, and if I’m not mistaken Saint Kotar was one of them. If mods decide so I’m Ok with both my threads being removed, ultimately I just think it’s weird that adventure fans complain about adventure projects taking up space on their forums 🤷♀️
And that concludes my contribution to this thread, I’ll keep playing Saint Kotar when I get the chance and leave an honest review like I always do.
That is indeed what im saying, we are talking about a niche audience here not a triple A game that has a million reviews anyway. Most indie adventure games have between 20 to a 100 reviews. Friends and family would drastically help the ratio. I promise you there have been those cases in the past, where a dev said help me out, you would be naive to think differently.
Nobody wants to ban kickstarters here, but its getting ridiculous with the amount there are, and with no interaction by the devs besides wanting your money. Makes it seem like all we are is $ signs to them.
Jdawg, you totally sold me on this. Can’t wait to play it.
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Having only now seen how ugly this thread has become, I’ll derail it again once and once only.
Like I said I know I can be abrasive sometimes, but I think it’s a nice counterbalance to the people who are overly polite, to the developers who come in here and peddle their wares on our boards without adding anything to other discussions on the forum thats not related to their kickstarters. I feel like we are constantly being bombarded with used car salesman pitching ads to us.
No, being rude and obnoxious to developers (or anyone else) on these forums is inexcusable, period, and the only thing it contributes is toxic hostility. Lots of people express criticisms of games, including when developers are present, but are able to do so in a respectful way and don’t go out of their way to continue doing it relentlessly. You have long since crossed that line.
So let me be clear: if you or anyone makes groundless accusations or casts aspersions on a developer’s integrity here again, or moves beyond healthy, constructive criticism to outright trolling and harassment, it’ll be the last time they have the chance to do so.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion of the game by those who are actually playing or are interested in this game.
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