Adventure Gamers - Forums
You are here: Home → Forum Home → Gaming → Adventure → Thread
Post Marker Legend:
-
New posts -
No new posts
Currently online
Casual Playthrough #4 - Enigmatis: The Mists of Ravenwood
I thought it was intriguing that, immediately after releasing [spoiler]the Preacher/Priest, he said that this was the second time that the UH had saved him. Apparently, Hamilton really could have dispatched the Priest with the knife in Maple Creek.[/spoiler]
I watched the Bonus on YouTube. I don’t really regret not buying the CE. (Well,I do, but more because I missed out on the achievements than anything else.) There was some good information though. The list of the Reapers being one. Am glad we met up with Raven. I don’t think Cobra would have been much fun.
And I was apparently wrong in my thinking that if Whitmarsh had won that the transformation would have happened immediately.
For whom the games toll,
they toll for thee.
It is possible that the Preacher did not kill UH because he could not and not because he was sparing her for saving him like he said. I hesitate to ascribe any good qualities to someone who is supposedly pure evil.
I bought the CE and I am glad I did because I really like the ticket seller. Also the glimpses we had of Raven’s notes made it a lot more personal.
I managed to get a quick screenshot of the detective’s badge from the opening cut scene:
I also got this one of the raven attacking the cables:
After Hamilton states that it was no coincidence that our UH was there, I began to suspect that he was the angel in human form. I do hope they make a sequel to resolve the story.
Thanks for leading this one, Izno! I had a good time with it.
“Rainy days should be spent at home with a cup of tea and a good book.” -Bill Watterson
The following has some spoilers, but, by and large, it is a philosophical discussion about, to borrow Dan Brown’s title, Angels and Demons. I don’t think there is anything story-wise that is revealed.
This is part of a discussion that took place in the Maple Creek thread:
But I don’t think our actions have had any impact on Asmodai himself. In order to actually defeat a demon like Asmodai, I think you would need some kind of divine intervention, like an archangel with a big flaming sword
I’m sure this topic will come up again in the next playthrough. But, the number of named archangels varies widely depending on source material. In newer Christian source material the number is three. If using Talmudic source material the number is either seven or nine. The one thing they have in common is that there was another archangel, who we know as Lucifer, who challenged God, and was sent to his fate as ruler of hell. So there is another level to consider. If the preacher serves Asmodai, and Asmodai serves Lucifer, it is only an equal of Lucifer that can slay Asmodai.
We shall see what happens.
Even the above is not quite accurate. In the Gospels there are only two named Archangels, Michael and Gabriel. Raphael is considered to be the Archangel of Healing, and is alluded to, but not named in the Gospel of John. It is assumed that that’s who John is referring to and Raphael “assumes” Archangel status without actually being named as such.
It is interesting that Raphael, the “healer” is chosen by the game’s developers to be the slayer of Asmodai. Because it was both Gabriel and Michael who were God’s chosen “hard asses”. It was they, not Raphael, who put the fourth Archangel, Lucifer, in a place where the sun don’t shine.
This combined with my earlier post in this thread re: Archangel Raphael, makes it highly unlikely, to me, that there is any angelic representation in our current three protagonists. This particularly applies to Hamilton. If he was Raphael incarnate, he wouldn’t need the knife to do the deed. He already took care of Asmodai, a far superior foe than either Whitmarsh or the Preacher.
The “Watcher” already has her own backstory. And we presume UH has one as well. But, Like Hamilton, if she were the female “Raphael” she could have taken on Whitmarsh/Preacher at any step along the way.
For whom the games toll,
they toll for thee.
It is interesting that Raphael, the “healer” is chosen by the game’s developers to be the slayer of Asmodai. Because it was both Gabriel and Michael who were God’s chosen “hard asses”. It was they, not Raphael, who put the fourth Archangel, Lucifer, in a place where the sun don’t shine.This combined with my earlier post in this thread re: Archangel Raphael, makes it highly unlikely, to me, that there is any angelic representation in our current three protagonists. This particularly applies to Hamilton. If he was Raphael incarnate, he wouldn’t need the knife to do the deed. He already took care of Asmodai, a far superior foe than either Whitmarsh or the Preacher.
The “Watcher” already has her own backstory. And we presume UH has one as well. But, Like Hamilton, if she were the female “Raphael” she could have taken on Whitmarsh/Preacher at any step along the way.
But remember what the Preacher said; that it would not be God putting Raphael in human form to do his bidding but Raphael putting himself there for his own purposes. Would that not limit his power? “Fine Raphael, but if you want to take human form you are going to be subject to human constraints. Choose wisely, grasshopper.”
Warning - Spoilers from this point in the playthrough
Some of these images (and comments as well) will be spoilers. If you haven’t finished the game, go no further.
Sorry I have been absent for a couple of days, but some other stuff have kept me occupied.
Anyway I have now also finished the game myself, and I had almost forgotten how good and dramatic the ending was, well the whole game is very good but I especially liked the last part here. perhaps also part of the reason why I was a bit disappointed by Maple Creek, because I had played this first and because of that expected more of the first game.
Regarding the dagger, then I noticed that during one of the last story scenes, the Preacher says “The one who had the weapon, had the advantage”, thereby both confirming that there is only one dagger, but also implying that the dagger is strictly speaking not necessary to kill one of the reapers, but only an advantage. Also in the relief scene we have to interact in as a mini game, one of the reapers actually attacks another using a spear and not the dagger, yet in the end scene the Raven is able to defeat but not actually kill the Preacher without the dagger?!?
Sooooo… am I reading too much into this, or is there actually another way to kill them, and if so, then why did the Raven wait for Hamilton to give him the dagger before killing the preacher?
Or perhaps this is just a little inconsistency in the game?
Regarding Raphael, like Tim I was also a bit surprised when I discovered that it was Raphael that defeated Asmodai. I kind of expected that an archangel or some other kind of divine intervention, would but Asmodai back in his cage, but I also expected that it would be the archangel Michael and not Raphael. I am no bible or archangel expert, but I do know that when we see an archangel with a sword in hand fighting against the forces of Satan, it is usually Michael.
But then I looked up Raphael in wikipedia and found this, that might explain why they chose Raphael for this:
...that he was sent by the Lord to heal him of his blindness and to deliver Sarah, his future daughter-in-law, from the demon Asmodeus, who kills every man she marries on their wedding night before the marriage can be consummated.
Regarding UH or Hamilton being Raphael in human form, then I don’t buy it!
Not only would they have been much too strong for either the Raven or the Preacher, more the equal or even superior of Asmodai himself, but they also have no prior knowledge of the whole history with Asmodai, the reapers and Raphael. So not only did Raphael loose most of his powers when becoming human, but he also lost all memory of it, so what would be the point then?
After Hamilton states that it was no coincidence that our UH was there, I began to suspect that he was the angel in human form.
“No coincidence” as in it was destiny that had brought them together again, or perhaps simply because they are both hunting the Preacher, at least that is how I interpreted it.
If we apply Occam’s Razor to this, then the simplest explanation and the explanation requiring fewest assumptions, is that both UH and Hamilton is exactly who they appear to be, and that the story with Raphael is just that, an ancient story.
It is possible that the Preacher did not kill UH because he could not and not because he was sparing her for saving him like he said. I hesitate to ascribe any good qualities to someone who is supposedly pure evil.
Just because you are a demonic immortal serial killer bent on destroying the world as we know it, and bring forth the rule of hell on earth, then it doesn’t mean that you can’t be a gentleman who keeps his word, and spare the life of someone who has just saved your ass, even if you had to deceive her to actually get her to save your ass… or perhaps he just had some kind of premonition that he would need her to defeat the Raven, as he said she had already save him twice, so why not a third time?
Which also makes me think, UH has now saved the preachers ass no less than three times. First by not letting Hamilton kill him, and conveniently turning her back while he escapes, second by letting him out of the Ravens prison, and third by helping him defeat the Raven. None of the times wilfully, but you know what they say, Once is what happens, twice might be a coincidence, but thrice is a pattern. So what is the pattern, why is UH apparently destined to both fight and defeat the preacher, but at the same time also help him?
Now of course if I applied Occam’s Razor to Raphael, then I also has to do if for this part and assume that it is just circumstances and because the Preacher is too smart for UH. But it is nevertheless a pattern, even if the pattern just shows that UH isn’t as competent as we would like her to be 
There is however another thing that has been bugging me ever since Becky proved that UH is now a PI - Who is her client??
Even if we assume that UH is not just working a case because some client is paying her to do so, but because she is driven to it, then she has been after the preacher for two whole years, and she has to eat, sleep and pay for gas when searching all across the country for clues to the Preachers whereabouts. I have seen no indication that she has any fortune of her own, so someone must be picking up the bill, but who?
There might still be some kind of angelic connection here, just a bit more indirectly.
Sorry for the wall of text in the above, but that is how it usually ends once I get going let me just end this post, but not the thread, by saying that it actually felt good to finally see what UH looks like, even if we only see her from behind.
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
[But remember what the Preacher said; that it would not be God putting Raphael in human form to do his bidding but Raphael putting himself there for his own purposes. Would that not limit his power? “Fine Raphael, but if you want to take human form you are going to be subject to human constraints. Choose wisely, grasshopper.”
Absolutely! And the most significant of those powers would be immortality. And since the slaying of Asmodai took place many centuries ago, a “human” Raphael would also have died many centuries ago.
For whom the games toll,
they toll for thee.
Re: the Angels & Demons discussion:
I don’t think any of the characters we’ve met is Raphael in human form. Besides the notion that it was Archangel Raphael that slayed Asmodai, we’ve been given no indication whatsoever that Raphael has anything to do with the events in these games.
Personally, I think that a third game would probably even focus on the UH and Hamilton teaming up to take down the Priest (which will be no easy feat since he has the dagger), ie. mortals vs. an immortal. It’s only once the Priest should succeed in becoming Asmodai Reincarnated that we’d need divine intervention to stop him, and THAT is where Archangel Raphael should enter the story, as an almost literal deus ex machina...
Regarding the dagger, then I noticed that during one of the last story scenes, the Preacher says “The one who had the weapon, had the advantage”, thereby both confirming that there is only one dagger, but also implying that the dagger is strictly speaking not necessary to kill one of the reapers, but only an advantage.
I took it to mean that the one with the dagger has the advantage as he can now kill others, but it’s not the ultimate weapon as it makes you the prime target for anyone else as well - since they need that dagger. The ones without the dagger are targets first, and hunters second, the one with the dagger is hunter first and target second, and that’s where the advantage comes from.
Also in the relief scene we have to interact in as a mini game, one of the reapers actually attacks another using a spear and not the dagger, yet in the end scene the Raven is able to defeat but not actually kill the Preacher without the dagger?!?
I think the spear could incapacitate the one with the dagger, allowing the other to take the dagger and go for the kill.
I didn’t think the spear in itself was enough…
This would also seem the most consistent with what we know.
“No coincidence” as in it was destiny that had brought them together again, or perhaps simply because they are both hunting the Preacher, at least that is how I interpreted it.
I agree.
The UH and Hamilton are both hunting the Preacher, so it’s no coincidence they’re crossing paths when they’re getting close…
If we apply Occam’s Razor to this, then the simplest explanation and the explanation requiring fewest assumptions, is that both UH and Hamilton is exactly who they appear to be, and that the story with Raphael is just that, an ancient story.
...one that could become important again, should the Preacher succeed in becoming Asmodai Reborn. 
There is however another thing that has been bugging me ever since Becky proved that UH is now a PI - Who is her client??
No one right now. I think she’s taking cases just to pay the bills, and every resource and spare moment then goes into hunting the Preacher. When funds run low, she takes other cases again, but most of the time she’s just focusing on the Preacher.
Plus she could be rich / have inherited a large sum of money and not need the funds at all…
I don’t think this is relevant at all…
let me just end this post, but not the thread, by saying that it actually felt good to finally see what UH looks like, even if we only see her from behind.
Wait, is this really the first we see of the UH? Huh, I was convinced we’d already seen her face before in a cutscene…
The truth can’t hurt you, it’s just like the dark: it scares you witless but in time you see things clear and stark. - Elvis Costello
Maybe this time I can be strong, but since I know who I am, I’m probably wrong. Maybe this time I can go far, but thinking about where I’ve been ain’t helping me start. - Michael Kiwanuka
No one right now. I think she’s taking cases just to pay the bills, and every resource and spare moment then goes into hunting the Preacher. When funds run low, she takes other cases again, but most of the time she’s just focusing on the Preacher.
That is the other possibility, but the USA is a large country with a lot of missing persons and other cases that could potentially be linked to the Preacher, so it wouldn’t leave her much time for other PI work, plus she would be travelling all over the place without any homebase or chance to build up some customerbase. So either she would have to be attached to a national detective agency who could pass cases to her in whatever area she happened to be in, or she would only be spending relative little time on the Preacher, in which case it would be a miracle that she actually found him.
It might not be something the developers have thought of, and it might not play any important part in the series, but it is a real logistic problem.
Wait, is this really the first we see of the UH? Huh, I was convinced we’d already seen her face before in a cutscene…
If you thinking of this scene, then that is Becky’s mother.
In not sure whether or not we saw her in Maple Creek, but I am fairly certain that it is the first we see of her in this game.
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
Re: the Angels & Demons discussion:
I took it to mean that the one with the dagger has the advantage as he can now kill others, but it’s not the ultimate weapon as it makes you the prime target for anyone else as well - since they need that dagger. The ones without the dagger are targets first, and hunters second, the one with the dagger is hunter first and target second, and that’s where the advantage comes from.
This is one of the many instances in both games where the “game logic” falls a bit short. If having the dagger gives the possessor the advantage, the possessor would simply stalk and kill his prey until only he was left. End of game!
There are any number of instances where we have noticed that logical actions not performed allow the game to continue. In the first game both UH and Hamilton were in possession of the dagger, and could/should have killed the Preacher at any time prior to the game’s ending. But if they did….End of game and no sequel.
In Ravenwood, Hamilton had the dagger, and by this time certainly knew its power. If he had used it to kill Whitmarsh, the Preacher would have died in prison. End of game!
It’s almost like your “deus ex machina” in reverse.
let me just end this post, but not the thread, by saying that it actually felt good to finally see what UH looks like, even if we only see her from behind.
Wait, is this really the first we see of the UH? Huh, I was convinced we’d already seen her face before in a cutscene…
I think Iz is right. Other than hands on steering wheel, I don’t think we’ve ever seen UH outside of her rescuing Hamilton in the tree and the shot he posted.
For whom the games toll,
they toll for thee.
This is one of the many instances in both games where the “game logic” falls a bit short. If having the dagger gives the possessor the advantage, the possessor would simply stalk and kill his prey until only he was left. End of game!
The ones without the dagger can stay hidden and stalk the one with the dagger as well. It’s not like they’re defenseless, just look at the fight between Whitmarsh and the Preacher before either had the dagger!
The dagger may give you the advantage of being able to make the killing blow, but you probably still have to beat the others first. They’re not going to go quietly.
There are any number of instances where we have noticed that logical actions not performed allow the game to continue. In the first game both UH and Hamilton were in possession of the dagger, and could/should have killed the Preacher at any time prior to the game’s ending. But if they did….End of game and no sequel.
The UH was not aware of the importance of the dagger then, and she stopped Hamilton from killing the Preacher. It’s even ambiguous if Hamilton knew the power of the dagger then…
In Ravenwood, Hamilton had the dagger, and by this time certainly knew its power. If he had used it to kill Whitmarsh, the Preacher would have died in prison. End of game!
Wasn’t killing Whitmarsh his plan? And he didn’t know the Preacher was in that prison.
Also, if the dagger’s the only way to kill a Reaper, would the Preacher have died in that prison, or just withered away without actually dying, waiting to be rescued so he can regain some strength and continue his quest for Asmodai?
I think Iz is right. Other than hands on steering wheel, I don’t think we’ve ever seen UH outside of her rescuing Hamilton in the tree and the shot he posted.
Well, seeing your hands and legs has certainly given the impression that we’ve seen our face then.
And we saw the UH in the opening cutscene of Maple Creek as well as in the one where she pushes the Preacher down the cave, so I may have been confusing with that as well…
The truth can’t hurt you, it’s just like the dark: it scares you witless but in time you see things clear and stark. - Elvis Costello
Maybe this time I can be strong, but since I know who I am, I’m probably wrong. Maybe this time I can go far, but thinking about where I’ve been ain’t helping me start. - Michael Kiwanuka
I think you have a way of looking at the games, and the logic of how the participants interact that is different than mine.
Neither is correct, nor incorrect. Just different.
For whom the games toll,
they toll for thee.
That didn’t come out right.
In Maple Creek UH wasn’t aware of the importance of the dagger while we were playing the game. But don’t forget she was suffering from memory loss. I have every reason to believe, if only by virtue of her having possession of the dagger, that she knew of it’s importance. As others have speculated, it was the Preacher who caused the storm that resulted in her memory loss because he was aware of the danger UH posed.
Which means, had UH acted on her knowledge, it wouldn’t have resulted in End of Game. It would have resulted in No Game. But that doesn’t render the theory implausible.
For whom the games toll,
they toll for thee.
I’m late to the game—I’ve been spending time with a family member who just had surgery—but here are a few images that I hope fit the discussion.
In terms of the dagger and is it needed to kill a Reaper—yes, it is. A Reaper can be seriously weakened (as the Priest/Preacher was in Maple Creek), but without a wound from the dagger, he will eventually recover.
This means that all the Reapers should have been looking for the guy with the dagger. And the guy with the dagger should have either been trying to kill everyone, or trying to figure out a way to defend himself against the others.
I don’t know how the Priest/Preacher got the dagger in the first place. But apparently, at some point, he decided to go into serious defensive mode. He chose an obscure little town in North America, which I imagine was far from the original Reaper stomping grounds. He used his power to control the townspeople so that he would be alerted whenever anyone new came into town. I think he thought he had more chance against his “Brothers” on his own turf, rather than going after them on their turf.
Whitmarsh did something similar, holing up away from everyone and everything while building up his power, knowing at some point he’d have to go after the knife. He was trying to locate it.
IMAGE FROM THE BONUS GAME
And I think Whitmarsh had succeeded in locating the Priest/Preacher before the events of Mists of Ravenwood. This is an image I took from the Bonus section during my first playthrough of the game years ago—I didn’t think to turn the page this time to see it, unfortunately, to confirm. But here it is. The one part (where Whitmarsh has circled the words “Slay the Priest First” sure looks like the rock monument near Hamilton’s cottage and the area above the ritual altar. Well, it sort of does.
IMAGE FROM THE BONUS GAME
If Hamilton had succeeded in killing the Priest/Preacher in Maple Creek, Whitmarsh wouldn’t have bonded with Asmodai immediately. But Hamilton and the UH wouldn’t have had any idea that Whitmarsh was out there. They wouldn’t have protected the dagger, because they wouldn’t have known that another Reaper would be coming after the dagger to complete the final quest.
Which brings up another question—how on earth did Hamilton hide the dagger from Whitmarsh once Hamilton was actually in the Ravenwood park? Wouldn’t you think that Whitmarsh would sense the dagger’s presence and pull out all the stops to find it?
You are here: Home → Forum Home → Gaming → Adventure → Thread
