Adventure Gamers - Forums

Personally, I think TenNapel’s big problem is that he expresses his views in a caustic way that sometimes comes off as undue arrogance. He doesn’t seem to have (or at least exercise) a great ability to frame his arguments in a persuasive way. Like, if you want to dismiss evolution, you’re already making yourself look silly in a lot of people’s eyes, but then to outright mock people for believing it takes a great deal of arrogance, particularly if one is not especially expert in the field.

Faith can be great, but I feel like it kind of has to come from a place of humility. Faith is always framed as the kind of thing you “just have to accept” rather than something that follows from a considerable amount of evidence, so it then seems reasonable to accept that intelligent men may indeed disagree on these matters; that an impartial analysis is at the very least unclear on the matter (and I’m being generous with my wording, there). No one likes it when someone gets self-righteous to others about a belief that they’ve just taken on faith in the first place.

So people get much more upset with him than someone else who holds such beliefs but expresses them differently, or in a less public way.

But again, I don’t give a shit about any of that, and I backed Armikrog day one without hesitation.

Zifnab - 20 June 2013 09:24 AM

FrasierCrane - 20 June 2013 08:51 AM

Oh please, haven’t we had enough childish “Reductio ad Hitlerum” arguments in this discussion.

No, and we still haven’t had any. Either you didn’t read the link you posted or you thought I was comparing Doug’s views to Hitlers, which is ridiculous.

nomadsoul - 20 June 2013 09:22 AM

Zifnab - 20 June 2013 07:50 AM

nomadsoul - 20 June 2013 07:22 AM

Anyone who took back the pledge , might reconsider after reading this

Or maybe not. If I’d pledged money to Hitler because I liked his painting then decided I wanted it back because he’s an ass, I wouldn’t be convinced to reconsider by the old “art and politics are separate” argument.

Dude, Hitlers type examples are extreme parallels to relate to or draw from.

Exactly. I hoped it would make it easier to see how art and politics can be related. Apparently it didn’t.

Well, I didn’t compare same sex marriage to taking a dump, so I’m glad you’re capable of understanding analogies.

Now can we please talk more about my religion instead of about my games? I just really think enough has been said about Armikrog while there’s all kinds of mind blowing new comments I’ve never heard before on same sex marriage.

Frogacuda - 20 June 2013 09:38 AM

Personally, I think TenNapel’s big problem is that he expresses his views in a caustic way that sometimes comes off as undue arrogance. He doesn’t seem to have (or at least exercise) a great ability to frame his arguments in a persuasive way.

Maybe, but it’s also that people can’t understand why legal status matters to religious people at all. Why should the status bestowed by the government on the relationship between me and my spouse matter to my faith, or anyone else’s? Isn’t that a private thing? The government can’t affect your relationship to god, or your wife… unlike a man using the women’s bathroom. So you can see how using such a strong analogy with an issue presenting no threat to one’s faith can bring into question the man’s character and motivations.

Frogacuda - 20 June 2013 09:38 AM

But again, I don’t give a shit about any of that, and I backed Armikrog day one without hesitation.

You might not give a shit but other people do: 66 people withdrew their pledges. The best way to fix this thing is not to say “let’s go back to talking about the game”. I personally don’t believe the comments were motivated by hate but the fact is some people did and were offended, and NOT because they’re politically correct liberals. For god’s sake (and Armikrog’s), address their gripes: telling them to stop talking is telling them you’re not listening to them, and that is a good enough reason to withdraw support even if being offended isn’t.

Bonsai - 20 June 2013 10:13 AM

There is a thread in Chit-Chat where anyone can discuss the same-sex marriage issue instead without disrupting the gaming section:

Gay marriage debate

Maybe we can further discuss it there.

This is now a gaming issue. How can it not be? Armikrog might not get funded because of this. Like I said, the key to getting this thing funded is by addressing it full-on, not silence. No doubt a mod will come along now and delete any posts to do with this issue. And more people will walk away from the kickstarter.

There’s really nothing to “address” here. Doug’s been very clear on his personal views, which seem to have nothing whatsoever to do with the game, making it a moot point content-wise for Armikrog. And on the flip side, no one should feel any obligation to support someone or something they oppose/are offended by. There isn’t always a happy medium where everybody wins.

AdorableMogwai, your personal comments about Doug’s sexuality are completely uncalled for (not to mention ridiculous).

On the other hand, The Neverhood is kind of a moral creation fable that DOES seem in some way broadly informed by Doug’s religious views. And we liked that game, right?

I have removed my backing (which is insignificant because it was at the 20 dollar level).

I’ve done this for a couple reasons.

I was lukewarm on the project to begin with and TenNapel’s religious views have pushed me over the edge. I am a Christian and am happy to find common ground with him, but his public views on gay marriage (which I find to be prejudiced and unbiblical) are such that I cannot support his game project. It’s not that I would only support game developers who have the same religious views as me (far from it), but that this issue of gay marriage is one of the most important civil rights issue for our times, and I feel morally obligated to make a stand in this case. If you’re curious about why I say “unbiblical” check out the gay marriage thread.

There are many, many game projects to support on kickstarter and elsewhere. We make a statement by where we spend our money. Because I disagree strongly with TenNapel’s views, that sours me on spending money to support this game.

I wish TenNapel and Pencil Test studios the best. I respect Doug for coming on these forums and participating in this discussion in a polite manner. I hope their project will make its goal in spite of me pulling my support and I expect that it will.

Thanks. - Tyler

Jackal - 20 June 2013 11:36 AM

AdorableMogwai, your personal comments about Doug’s sexuality are completely uncalled for (not to mention ridiculous).

How is it uncalled for? It’s not an insult to imply someone is gay, you know. Even Doug himself didn’t get angry at my comments, he just laughed.

It’s also not ridiculous because there have been studies done that show people who are against gays are actually the most aroused at homosexual imagery. For example this http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-big-questions/201106/homophobic-men-most-aroused-gay-male-porn

Regardless of his views or his sexuality, Doug TenNapel doesn’t seem like a hateful person to me. That’s why I’m supporting Armikrog, that and also it looks to me like one of the best adventure game Kickstarters in history comparable to LSL Reloaded.

Chick Fil A is kind of a different story, because they actually funnel large amounts of money into lobbying and marketing campaigns that actually affect the issue. Doug’s just like your bible-banger uncle who gets a little too loud at Thanksgiving after a couple glasses of wine.

AdorableMogwai - 20 June 2013 04:53 PM

How is it uncalled for? It’s not an insult to imply someone is gay, you know. Even Doug himself didn’t get angry at my comments, he just laughed.

He laughed because he was being a good sport at the absurdity. Your remarks are uncalled for because his sexuality is none of your damn business.

thejobloshow - 20 June 2013 08:16 PM

I better understand why you made that decision, Terabin. However, I still believe your statement is misguided - aimed in the wrong direction. This is why I will make up for the amount you removed by adding $20 to my pledge.

Just curious joblo, what do you see about my statement that is misguided?