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No new postsDreamfall: Chapters
[...]they’re planning to spend money they don’t have yet in order to fulfill their obligation to backers. That’s wrong, because there’s no way they can guarantee that will happen. If the game underperforms they could wind up without enough money to complete the project.
The whole point of a Kickstarter and stretch goals and all of that is to secure the funds you need to complete the project up front. Gambling your obligation on a maybe is really not cool.
Absolutely. It’s called financial mismanagement.
Sometimes, when I clean the rooms, I get a little curious and… erm… you know… snoop through our guests’s stuff. - This Bed We Made
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BigFinish should start giving some pointers on how to manage kickstarter budgets and release dates
You mean deliver 18 months late and needing to get extra financing from a publisher. It’s a different solution for solving the budget problem, but please don’t wear blinkers and pretend they had no budget problems. They just went for a different solution. Fair enough, but I can fully understand why RTG aren’t keen on getting a publisher to provide the extra funding - not everyone was thrilled with Big Finish Games when they went for that solution either.
BFG’s estimate at the end of the KS was Fall of 2013, and they delivered Spring of 2014, which makes them a reasonable few months late by my estimation.
The FAQ and numerous posts made it absolutely, unambiguously clear that the Dec 2012 date was never intended to refer to the game, only to physical rewards, and THAT may have been pushed back considerably but the game itself was kept reasonably on schedule, despite some pretty hefty expansions to the scope.
Not my memory of it.
I’m taking Cubase’s word over yours.
Look, I don’t care if the game’s late, I don’t care if the structure is episodic, but I do care if they’re planning to spend money they don’t have yet in order to fulfill their obligation to backers. That’s wrong, because there’s no way they can guarantee that will happen. If the game underperforms they could wind up without enough money to complete the project.
Whether there’s any significant risk there is hard to judge without seeing their accounts. it’s clear there will be SOME sales, so some income. The question is whether they need good sales to finish the game, or if even a “worse case scenario” would be enough. As I wrote before, you are the one and only person I’ve seen on here or the forum who said the game should be cut significantly in order to keep within the budget. That’s a principled position. I don’t agree with you so long as RTG’s projections are realistic, but understand your thinking. I would argue that most businesses plan their budgets based on projected future income, not on the reserves they already have in the bank, so have no problem in theory with that policy so long as the projections are not over-optimistic.
I’m taking Cubase’s word over yours.
Fair enough. Over their statement on the kickstarter page too then, I guess.
BFG’s estimate at the end of the KS was Fall of 2013, and they delivered Spring of 2014, which makes them a reasonable few months late by my estimation.
12-14 months once they had the kickstarter money, so from July 2012. That means July-Sept 2014. Product delivered start May. That means 8-10 months late. Not the end of the world in my opinion, but hardly a paragon of virtue.
Yeah, it’s definitely sad when this happens. It’s really not the way anyone wants to go, but sometimes situations make it a necessity.
I was privileged to see Ragnar and Dag privately demo this game at GDC, and what I saw was pretty wonderful - so, even with this unfortunate development, I think people will still get great games to play.
Bt
To quote from their official statement to backers:
- Their team with play test our game every week, ensuring the best possible product for you guys.
- Their support will help throw some more polish into the final game. More object animations, better visual effects, and a few more surprises.
Animation? Better visual effects? A few more surprises? And that’s from Big Finish’s own statement when they’re trying to sell the publisher sell-out to the kickstarter backers. Seems to be a bit more (and that’s just officially) than what you stated.
Firstly, I had already mentioned they did testing in the post which you quoted.
Secondly, “Their support will help throw more polish into the finale game. More object animations, better visual effects, and a few more surprises.”
Let’s look at that statement carefully. Did it actually say they (Atlus) will be throwing these in specifically? I don’t think it did. The statement more exemplifies how their support would enable BFG to give these features more polish and attention. Mainly because the team at BFG (with the publisher on board) no longer needed to focus on the publishing and marketing as much (which they were all were pulling double duty to do so). This left more room for them to knuckle down and add this polish to many disciplines. I can tell you with 100% confidence that Atlus did not contribute any animation, visual effects, programming, modelling, scripting, or any other game design tasks to the project. All those remained entirely the responsibility of the 13 BFG staff members working on the project.
The other point with Tesla Effect/ Big Finish games which you and others are ignoring is how much Big Finish Games other interests have financed the game. I have to admit I have no idea personally how true it is, but it’s been quoted often enough on this forum that they’ve used finances from their own other ventures on the game. Nothing wrong with that but, if true, it’s another aspect that mean it’s hardly a level playing field when holding them up as a role model.
Yes, they chipped in some of their own money (which as a software company they are entitled to do for their own software). But even after this is was STILL a sub $1 mil game. If you bare in mind that other titles were likely to have also injected their own funds as well, the statement that the game was made for 2-3x less than others still holds up.
I’m taking Cubase’s word over yours.
Fair enough. Over their statement on the kickstarter page too then, I guess.
Yes. Frogacuda might be onto to something there. Aside from the corrections I made to your observations of the KS update in question, I don’t believe there is anything that remains that can further dispute the points I have made, and clarified. Except for maybe the definition of the delay, but you have already successfully made your point there, even if it was only to facilitate a rather hyperbolic statement (“hardly a paragon of virtue”). Remember that this extra development time was not a bailout to enable them to complete what was promised, it was to enable them to cram much more into the game. Two stories in one to be precise, because they obviously figured that after 16 years of waiting, the die hard fans deserved a big game, and wanted to deliver rather than just settle for less! Sounds like a pretty noble idea to me.
That said, this whole discussion would work a lot better if there was less speculation flying around, and more genuine questions, answers and facts.
I also want to take this opportunity to say that I have all the confidence that despite the episodic format Dreamfall Chapters has decided to take, I have all the confidence in the world that they will still deliver a stellar gaming experience, based on a phenomenal track record, and really look forward to seeing what they come up with!
Personally, I didn’t believe for a second that they would be able to make the november 2014 deadline, but I didn’t expect this. I understand the reasons and I’m prepared to be patient (hopefully) for the full game but I’m still annoyed that they decided to do this now and not from the beginning since they supposedly already had the basic outline of the story way before the kickstarter campaign. Not to mention the constant reassurances they gave us in their pitch that they’ll be able to do it with the suggested budget on time.
Remember that this extra development time was not a bailout to enable them to complete what was promised, it was to enable them to cram much more into the game.
That’s basically the same reason for the “Broken Age/Dreamfall Chapters” development delay.
This episodic thing actually changes the game back into the format it was originally envisioned in. Ragnar has stated Chapters was in its original format an episodic game, then they aimed to release it as a whole. It still would have been divided into books and chapters though, so this new release schedule won’t really effect in the structure of the game.
And the episodes will be merged on the game like Broken Sword 5 did, so in the end it will be one, big game.
Did it actually say they (Atlus) will be throwing these in specifically?
Think we’ll have to agree to differ on this one 
. The official kickstarter statement is pretty specific re some programming aspects thier involvement would help improve. Yet you originally wrote:
Plus their involvement was purely to help boost publicity, increase its release platform scope, and help with some play testing and a bit of localization.
I’m sorry, but I still don’t see how your statement and the official one match up. I guess you have a certain amount of insider knowledge from the sounds of it, but the statements still don’t match up. Maybe they specifically provided the money to improve these aspects? I don’t know.
Except for maybe the definition of the delay, but you have already successfully made your point there, even if it was only to facilitate your rather hyperbolic statement of “hardly a paragon of virtue”.
You’re probably right it was a bit hyperbolic . But so were those from you and others the other way!
it was to enable them to cram much more into the game. Two stories in one to be precise, because they obviously figured that after 16 years of waiting, the die hard fans deserved a big game, and wanted to deliver rather than just settle for less! Sounds like a pretty noble idea to me.
Not arguing with that. In fact, it seems pretty much what RTG are similarly trying to do with Dreamfall Chapters, just their approaches/solutions are different. I’m personally happy RTG are keeping a publisher out of the equation.
That said, this whole discussion would work a lot better if there was less speculation flying around, and more genuine questions, answers and facts.
I also want to take this opportunity to say that I have all the confidence that despite the episodic format Dreamfall Chapters has decided to take, I have all the confidence in the world that they will still deliver a stellar gaming experience, based on a phenomenal track record, and really look forward to seeing what they come up with!
. Don’t think we’re at odds very much, just I don’t see what RTG are doing and what Big Finish did as so different.
But 18 months sounds much more convincing than 4-5 months, doesn’t it. Killfile time!
No, 4-5 months seems ot be your invention. It was 18 months re their estimated delivery time at the start of the kickstarter campaign and 8-10 months late by the end.
But for further discussion with you, I’M now backing out. I notice you couldn’t resist coming back for another jibe.
All good DaveyB! Some points we agree. Some points we don’t. But I think we can both agree: never in a million years did we imagine having so many darn good adventure games to talk and debate about! 
All good DaveyB!
LOL. A nice note to wrap our debate up on
For anyone who doesn’t know, Cubase (a.k.a. Mat Van Rhoon) is one of the devs for Tex Murphy: Tesla Effect.
That said, this whole discussion would work a lot better if there was less speculation flying around, and more genuine questions, answers and facts.
Agreed, and I have no interest in re-starting any debate. But with what you’ve said in mind, I’d like to ask a question, with no agenda, out of genuine curiosity and for the sake of clarity ...
Yes, [BFG] chipped in some of their own money (which as a software company they are entitled to do for their own software). But even after this [Tesla Effect] was STILL a sub $1 mil game.
Cubase, my understanding has been that many of the Tesla Effect devs chose to work for a reduced rate and so were either owed additional payment after release or perhaps had a profit-sharing percentage. (Please correct me if that is wrong.)
Can you clarify if the “sub $1 mil” figure you cite includes any estimate for post-release payments owed to the devs, or if it only includes the reduced rate that the devs took prior to release?
I ask because a less than $1 million total budget seems small for what I presume to be about 21 months of work by up to 13 devs, plus actors’ fees, filming expenses, testing, and localization. So I’m trying to understand the context and circumstances that make that figure possible.
You needn’t provide any other figures since I know there’s a limit to what numbers you can share; I’m just looking for clarification on what the “sub $1 mil” referred to and what it didn’t.
For anyone who doesn’t know, Cubase (a.k.a. Mat Van Rhoon) is one of the devs for Tex Murphy: Tesla Effect.
Why doesn’t that surprise me . I did afterall write:
I’m sorry, but I still don’t see how your statement and the official one match up. I guess you have a certain amount of insider knowledge from the sounds of it
It’s a very interesting question though from Caliburn. Someone quoted on the RTG forum what standard programming earning are in the U.S. and so where the 1.5m for Dreamfall Chapters will have been going. If all the $1m (actually under, according to Cubase) budget went to the 13 staff for ca. 20 months, they’d be earning a pretty poor $50,000 a year. And I’m sure the reality is there are a number of other costs involved - premises, promotion, equipment etc etc. Not forgetting the cut kickstarter & amazon take, plus the costs of the physical rewards. I am intrigued how a professional company can manage it - the situation for people doing it as a labour of love or trying to start-up is clearly different.
Now as Caliburn says, Cubase may not be able to tell us much, or indeed anything. But I would be intrigued to hear anything which he is able to share.
EDIT: As a comparison, I’ve just read this from Ragner on the RTG forum:
We have a reasonably big team — 16 people in-house, plus outsourcing and freelancers — along with associated overheads. The Kickstarter funds constitutes a big and important part of our budget, but it’s not our entire budget: we’ve had other investments and grants, and the total budget is certainly higher than $1,5 million.
But 18 months sounds much more convincing than 4-5 months, doesn’t it. Killfile time!
No, 4-5 months seems ot be your invention. It was 18 months re their estimated delivery time at the start of the kickstarter campaign and 8-10 months late by the end.
No, 18 months late seems to be your invention. Development time was 12-14 months in the first week of the Kickstarter campaign. Plus 30% extra for the stretch goals when the campaign was over. Remarkable that you refuse to take the Tesla stretch goals into account, like they don’t exist, like they should be crammed into those 12-14 months. If I said Schafer or Tornquist should do that, you would be the first to scream murder.
But for further discussion with you, I’M now backing out.
Good idea. You’re making it up as you go along. You’re desparately looking for rusty nails to scratch your neighbor’s brandnew car, just to make your own half-finished car look better. Come back when all five Dreamfall Chapters have been released.
I notice you couldn’t resist coming back for another jibe.
Oh yes, your self-control is sooooooo much better than mine! 
Sometimes, when I clean the rooms, I get a little curious and… erm… you know… snoop through our guests’s stuff. - This Bed We Made
For anyone who doesn’t know, Cubase (a.k.a. Mat Van Rhoon) is one of the devs for Tex Murphy: Tesla Effect.
Why doesn’t that surprise me
I’m surprised you didn’t know, everybody else does. You know in fact very little for someone who claims to know so much about the KS campaign.
Now as Caliburn says, Cubase may not be able to tell us much, or indeed anything. But I would be intrigued to hear anything which he is able to share.
I sincerely hope nobody tells you anything, cause you make it very clear that you will only use it against Tesla Effect and Big Finish.
Sometimes, when I clean the rooms, I get a little curious and… erm… you know… snoop through our guests’s stuff. - This Bed We Made
Red thread will close down after 4 eps and leave us hanging like Dreamfall,
Ep5 will become Halflife (ep) 3 and will release after 8 years.
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