[Crunchy in milk]

Evil.

I habitually kill charmingly pleasant NPCs just to see if they have nice stuff I might want. I get that little thrilling shiver right to the core when a game not only lets me be evil, but plays along with it well.

In every infinity engine game it usually resulted in everyone 'magically' going hostile on sight though so in those I'm pretty much limited to playing a half hearted neutral evil fellow (sensibly selfish).

Intimidation and theft alone don't really cut it for me. This is why I felt both of the Kotors evil paths weak. I felt like a pimp or street thug rather than a Sith Lord.

Most games that feature an evil ending are still too similar in the path getting there. The Geneforge games (especially #4) at least offer varied quests based on which faction you support, letting you work for the 'evil' Shapers or the naive Rebels or play them off againt one another.

As for the best 'evil' ending, I still enjoy Jade Empire's. The good ending makes no sense in that game.

Spoiler:

only a bleeding heart idiot would free that moist bint after she promises you 10 years of drought as a reward... and what's she done for you lately but interrupt your sleep with visions of her floating about offering cryptic messages. Far better to keep ahold of her as a resource and screw the other kingdoms with drought. Did They capture a god? No they did not so let 'em cower.

[stepurhan]

There is a nice pair of Ravenloft NWN module that allows for both good and evil playing. Return to Ravenloft and Ravenloft : Beyond the Gate.

The problem with most mainstream games is you're playing some sort of hero and the storyline is written with you performing good acts in mind. It's hard to really play evil when the plot has you setting slaves free.

That said, I have a tendency to play Paladins (Good AND Lawful) so that's not really a worry for me.

[aries323]

Normally, I play as a Chaotic Good character, at least in D&D setting.

In the Elder Scrolls, I play as I choose to play, that is, I try to stay true to my character in that game, be it Morrowind or Oblivion. I try to play 'good' in these games, although it sometimes is hard to do so. However,I have toyed with the idea that maybne sometime in the future I will play as an assasin/archer/thief character in Oblivion, so that I might see what the Dark Brotherhoods quests are all about.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Catbert

Who's this person dressed up like Emperor Ming?

[Aj_]

Games usually rate me as "good", but I always feel like my characters are almost always "evil". There's always a few unjustified homicides, sometimes born through fustration, or sometimes stray bullets/magic make people hostile. Stealing, lots of stealing goes on, all my characters are right cleptos.

I don't set out to be good or evil unless playing through a game again, and trying to get new content. In Fable good characters suck, but the evil ending wasn't that good. In Jade Empire, evil characters aren't that great, and the evil choice near the end is stupid. In the Jedi Knight games, it's good to be Sith.

I'm a relativist, I don't think there is such a thing as good or evil. I'm not a fan of the concept in games. I thought Fallout was based on relativism more than other games (although apparantly interplay made them change one of the endings for being ambiguous). Bloodlines doesn't care whether you're good or evil (although you can turn into an animal when you lose your humanity), but you do get to align yourself with factions. I don't really like making people suffer, even fictional characters. It's more important to be given the ability to reject authority.

[TangentBlack]

Most of Bloodline's choices are clearly good vs. evil. The factions, on the other hand, are slightly more grey in morality and what you choose to do with your reptutation within the faction then dictates whether the faction falls from grace or not.What do you really think humanity is a meter of in the game? The game assumes that it is a measure of your decency towards the NPC's. For example, if you choose not to rat out on the beach bums in New York, you gain a point of humanity. If you go as far as to help them retrieve info on Thinned Bloodies, you get two. Or you can convince a girl to pay a visit to the clinic. When she agrees, you'll lose two points of Humanity, but a return visit to the clinic will reward you with items aplenty. It is an alignment meter incognito. The only difference is that the game penalizes you severly for losing all your humanity and doesn't reward you for being human-like. The decisions are exactly like Kotor or Jade Empire; your misdeeds close doors on certain quests but also reward you with prizes ten fold what you would get if you were "good".


On a side note, you mentioned that you are a clepto when it comes to games. That brings up an interesting point that it is waaaaay to easy to steal in most games. In fact, I was playing Divine Divinity a couple days ago and stole so much that I couldn't physically move. I think that it makes the game too easy and drastically reduces the challenge in raising cash. Crime really does pay in games, kids.

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by TangentBlack

Most of Bloodline's choices are clearly good vs. evil. The factions, on the other hand, are slightly more grey in morality and what you choose to do with your reptutation within the faction then dictates whether the faction falls from grace or not.What do you really think humanity is a meter of in the game? The game assumes that it is a measure of your decency towards the NPC's. For example, if you choose not to rat out on the beach bum point of humanity. If you go as far as to help them retrieve info on Thinned Bloodies, you get two. Or you can convince a girl to pay a visit to the clinic. When she agrees, you'll lose two points of Humanity, but a return visit to the clinic will reward you with items aplenty. It is an alignment meter incognito. The only difference is that the game penalizes you severly for losing all your humanity and doesn't reward you for being human-like. The decisions are exactly like Kotor or Jade Empire; your misdeeds close doors on certain quests but also reward you with prizes ten fold what you would get if you were "good".

It's a different concept. There are no evil dogs. What does it take to be a good tiger? Vampires with little or no humanity, aren't evil. It's about ethics and what makes us human. It's not the same as other games, the property of good and evil isn't there. It's far more ambiguous.

I don't agree that the game rewards screwing people over, sure in a few quests that might be the case but playing nice gets you rewards as well. The humanity meter has a lot more to do with compassion than good and evil. The game doesn't force choices on you in a contrived way, it involves opportunism or being charitable to situations, a lot of the time you can abstain or there are other roots to take.

On a side note, you mentioned that you are a clepto when it comes to games. That brings up an interesting point that it is waaaaay to easy to steal in most games. In fact, I was playing Divine Divinity a couple days ago and stole so much that I couldn't physically move. I think that it makes the game too easy and drastically reduces the challenge in raising cash. Crime really does pay in games, kids.

I agree, people really don't look after their property in games.

[MdaG]

I've played two hours into Fable now controlling a soon to be evil character. So far it hasn't been too satisfying, but I hope it'll change when I do a couple of more quests. Sometimes I feel that I'm forced to do good deeds. Is that just an illusion? For example I'm currently forced to choose quests that concerns HELPING people (the HORROR!!!!)...

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by MdaG

I've played two hours into Fable now controlling a soon to be evil character. So far it hasn't been too satisfying, but I hope it'll change when I do a couple of more quests. Sometimes I feel that I'm forced to do good deeds. Is that just an illusion? For example I'm currently forced to choose quests that concerns HELPING people (the HORROR!!!!)...

Yes, I remember the evil options coming after you've offered to help someone. I guess you can consider the offer of help false, and that your evil character likes betrayal.

[RLacey]

Doesn't Fable almost always allow you to choose between a good and evil form of the mission? So you can either help or kill a farmer, for instance...

[TangentBlack]

Well, here I am looking at the walkthrough to the game to refresh my memory of the game and it informs me (at least looking at about half of the sidequests) that most of these quests do reward you much more thoroughly while playing the "evil wrongdoer" role in trade for humanity points.

Also, ask yourself what distiguishes humanity-giving events from humanity-taking events? How would you describe the difference if not good or evil? The writers of the script cleary define what events are humanly unscrupulous which inhibits the "ambiguity" of making tough decisions. Don't get me wrong, there are some great choices that one can potentially make in the game that even got me sweating, but the majority of these are black and white.

Here are just a few more comparisons, but you can look at the website yourself at the link at the bottom:

Spoiler:

Attention Whore quest- You have to get rid of a ghoul who will attract vamp hunters to a bar. You can either persuade her to leave or threaten and kill her. The ladder gets you a lost point and extra cash from the employer, the former gives you nothing but a pat on the back.

Venucide quest- You have to kill a woman for a russian mafiaso, who, for all intents and purposes for the plot, is genuinely written as an evil character without any redeeming goodness (leaving for no morally "grey" region in which you were speaking of). Essentially, you can kill the woman if you feel in a bloodsporty mood or spare her and take out her assailents including the mafia boss. The former choice is obviously evil but as always rewards you with a $1000 since the boss is rich and in a generous mood. The latter choice gives you humanity and $250 cash.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/vampirebloodlines/walkthrough.php

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by TangentBlack

Also, ask yourself what distiguishes humanity-giving events from humanity-taking events? How would you describe the difference if not good or evil?

You don't go down a path to evilness, you lose your humanity, that's not becoming evil. There are no evil tigers. Your actions can be good or evil, but you don't have good or evil characters, humanity is not the same.

Originally Posted by TangentBlack

Spoiler:

Attention Whore quest- You have to get rid of a ghoul who will attract vamp hunters to a bar. You can either persuade her to leave or threaten and kill her. The ladder gets you a lost point and extra cash from the employer, the former gives you nothing but a pat on the back.

Spoiler:

Or you can't, because you're not good enough to persuade her. This is for the masquerade, nearly every vampire agrees that your species would be doomed without it. Then your options are leave her and risk lots of vampire deaths, kill her, or send her to a horrible death and get something cool.

The moral of this story? If you're not that good at talking, doom your entire race instead of killing a ghoul that basically is already living a pitiful existance.

Originally Posted by TangentBlack

Spoiler:

Venucide quest- You have to kill a woman for a russian mafiaso, who, for all intents and purposes for the plot, is genuinely written as an evil character without any redeeming goodness (leaving for no morally "grey" region in which you were speaking of). Essentially, you can kill the woman if you feel in a bloodsporty mood or spare her and take out her assailents including the mafia boss. The former choice is obviously evil but as always rewards you with a $1000 since the boss is rich and in a generous mood. The latter choice gives you humanity and $250 cash.

Spoiler:

I've played the game quite a few times, and everytime I have gotten more money out of killing the mafia boss. If anything, a lot of the choices involve smaller immediate gains, or larger gains over a longer period.

The moral of this story? If someone is being extorted by the Russian mafia, kill their boss and his body guards for part ownership of the establishment.

[[toj.cc]Phantom]

http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/

[TangentBlack]

You actually just took a circumlocutory to the question. Just humor me with an answer: What is the difference between the two events? Is it not that humanity events are normally "helping" people in a non-violent, normally passive way (i.e the light side or open palm if you catch my drift) and dehumanizing events are self serviant, violent, and generally aggressive approaches to problems (i.e. the dark side or closed fist). I think that one could sit down if they really wanted to and categorize the decisions you could make and you will generally get a pretty strong dissection between good and evil. I might even venture to say that if one were to really make these decisions in real life, there wouldn't be to much pain in the process of making them.

If you disagree with my definition, then please give me another one, because the game really doesn't provide for anything else. It's possible that we are argueing over semantics. I don't believe the game to actually use the correct dictionary definition of humanity, but rather just a blatent substitute for the good/evil meter. You do good deeds, you stay human. You do misdeed, you turn into a monster (or more of one). Of course there are a few choices here or there that give you the impression that the game has more to offer than just two at a given time, but they manifest only occasionally.

Remember, I am not talking about actual real life philosophy here. I am just argueing that the game veils itself to be more than it actually is. Don't get me wrong though, I enjoyed the game and don't have anything much against it.

[Aj_]

Humanity has very little to do with non-violence and passiveness in Bloodlines, and you can lose humanity points by acts that are not self servient or violent. Showing compassion gets you humanity, harming people loses you humanity.

The quality of being human is what it deals with. You won't get much understanding from a dictionary, an encyclopedia is what you need. When you lose your humanity you don't become a monster. Not being human doesn't make you a monster.

There's no quality of good or evil in Bloodlines. I've done Jade Empire a disservice, because on further reflection the two ways aren't about good or evil either, I think what confused me was that there is also a concept of good and evil in that game.

[SnorkleCat]

Morrowind and Oblivion don't force you to choose light side or dark side, but I tend to make my own morality based on each situation....I don't feel too bad fulfilling most Dark Brotherhood quests because those people are usually marked for assasination for a good reason....when given a chance of being nice or not, I tend to want to be nice. I feel ridiculously guilty after doing something cruel or wrong. That said, I like thieving but prefer to victimize wealthy, snooty people who have said something nasty to my character.

In Neverwinter Nights, our character is Chaotic Neutral. I'd hate to have to take the "high road" all the time...but that said, I doubt he's going to do anything truly evil...he might behave in a greedy and self centered manner, but I don't think he's going to be horrid.

I think evil characters in general are more interesting than good ones...I always wished the wicked queen had gotten Snow White; Snow White was so stupid and insipid and irritating.

....Of course there is something refreshing about slaying someone who really has it coming...can't do this in real life, but maaaan there are times when I wish I really could shoot fireballs out of my fingers.

[MdaG]

I keep getting good points. I just lost my beginning horns and baldness due to finishing a quest. There was no choice of being evil anywhere!? If the only way to be evil is to occasionally kill peasants I'm going good (again *sigh*)...

[JemyM]

I always play good. Cant play evil. On the Lawful/Chaotic scale im somewhere in between. Im bound to duty and discipline, as long as it's controlled by me.

[MdaG]

Originally Posted by Aj_

Yes, I remember the evil options coming after you've offered to help someone. I guess you can consider the offer of help false, and that your evil character likes betrayal.

Yes, I guess there are occasional choices given, but I feel that it's generally hard to be really evil in this game. For once I keep getting "good guy"-points whenever I kill monsters. Why is that!? Also is it worth spending Xp on magic. I've only leveled up a little in that are since the spells are somewhat disappointing...

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by MdaG

Yes, I guess there are occasional choices given, but I feel that it's generally hard to be really evil in this game. For once I keep getting "good guy"-points whenever I kill monsters. Why is that!? Also is it worth spending Xp on magic. I've only leveled up a little in that are since the spells are somewhat disappointing...

For my evil character I levelled up good until I got to the evil temple, then I sacrificed four or five people, which makes you about as evil as you can get, and gives you

Spoiler:

the coolest looking weapon, the most powerful bow.

The evil character looks much better than the good one. The only spell I care for in the game is the chain lightning one, and perhaps a fireball. Killing monsters and bandits give you good points, and since they're hostile you basically have to kill them, so I guess that's anoying, but I got most of my good and evil points from picking quests and going to the temples.