[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Ps3Lover

Its all about the developers !!! How good they are, apparently most of them are scared to develop on challenging hardware, with xbox they get almost the whole game on there desk ! As it is much like window programming, YEAH , what a challenge...

O god.

No, it's not that they're 'scared'. You forget there's a HUGE amount of money involved here, and it takes that and time to figure out how the hardware processes everything. If you want proof just google developer interviews on the PS3 architecture. Wait another year or two or so and you'll begin to see this console's strength slowly being revealed in new titles - not because the developers are 'scared' (god, where the hell did you get that drivel from?), but because they'll finally begin to figure out how the stupid thing works
and program for it accordingly.

EvoG, could you please educate us a little more if you can? I mean, you've already explained it in other numerous posts, but it seems there are those here who haven't read those posts.

[Ps3Lover]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

O god.

No, it's not that they're 'scared'. You forget there's a HUGE amount of money involved here, and it takes that and time to figure out how the hardware processes everything.

OMG, thats what i mean Amigo !! read better, and my english isn`t that good..
So much more respect for the PS developers !

Btw, are you an interpreter or intrepid ?

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Ps3Lover

and my english isn`t that good..

Well, that explains a few things.

[Ps3Lover]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Well, that explains a few things.

well, i said it before , but you didn`t read posts that well.
that explains why you didn`t understand.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I didn't understand because your English isn't too good.

[Ps3Lover]

ohh, but you can read my last reply ? what odd ...
some sort of denial here....

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Look, you're being obnoxious again. Please stop.

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by Aj_

Well, you did say PC games were using the maximum of a Xbox DVD, and that might be true, but a Xbox 360 DVD on the other hand...

Then it's not really going to be richer, it'll just be larger.

Games don't really rely on Windows to support hardware specifications. It depends on the game engine whether there will be alternative content for different hardware.

No one is making games that large, they'd cost too much to make.

Sony and Microsoft seem to think it will, and so do I, it seems pretty obvious to me that it's the future. Other things that needs space sound (but there's enough for that now), oh and videos...

I'm sure it's to do with less dumb developers. There's problems with using high quality video in game, a) it takes resources you would be using for the game, b) the speed of the drive is slow, so if you're already using it for something (most games are pre-loading data), and c) it wouldn't be consistant with the 3D graphics, the game would look poor.

1. The space isn't a problem for sound quality, it's the hardware, and of course, the majority of sound systems people have wouldn't even take advantage of it.
2. No one is going to produce that ammount of sound, it would cost too much, and more isn't always better.

You're talking about the PS3, and that very much has an upper limit on what it can do. Perhaps games will need more space, but until the hardware gets better it would just be used for bigger games, and no one is making them, because a) it would cost too much, b) developers aren't having any problems making large games like Oblivion without coming close to 7GB.

Not only that but there are technologies that will allow for creating much bigger games like Spore, but they don't require as much space. I'm pretty sure I saw a Unreal Engine 3.0 demo where there was procedural generation going on (so that's a lot of games right there), and of course there's Oblivion.

In the past more space available to developers without the hardware or technology to take advantage of it means that some developers make far too many videos for cutscenes.

Space is a huge issue for sound quality. Lets say you have an adventure game with 500 lines of speech, 50 different musical tracks, and a multitude of sound effects. if you dont have enough space for all if this, you just downsample and make the file sizes smaller and the quality suffers. So again, use your imagination and think of games a few years down the track... you dont want to be limited by storage, otherwise the quality will suffer. Same goes for variation in graphics and the size of the gameworld. I agree having a larger storage medium does not necessarily make for better on screen graphics (although it could due to more texture variety, streaming HD videos, possibilities for more character models, background data etc) but it does make it possible to have a mucher larger, richer more varied experience. What would Gears of war be like if it had to be fit on a CD? what could it be like if a full HD DVD disk was used?

your logic holds fairly true if you just look at the past and current games. however in 2 years time, 7 gigs of storage will just not cut it.

As i said in my original post, i beleive developers will be utilising the extra space the blu ray drive allows, (and i am not saying this because i am pro ps3, because i am not) and i beleive microsoft will use their HD DVD drive for 360 games, but only time will tell.

[CrimsonBlue]

I thought it was established that the Blu-Ray drive reading speed was consistant, while on a normal DVD it wasn't. Which means that the DVD is faster than the Blu-Ray if it ran at full speed all the time, which it clearly doesn't.

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by EvoG

I don't, but as I said, someone has to author all that extra data. So just because the BluRay's extra space is available, doesn't mean we'll just automatically get more data. That data is not free. Resistance (which is only 10 hours btw, to address your short Gears comment), only takes up 6 gigs of actual space with regards to gameplay...the rest is for FMV which is just not needed at all ever (go watch a Gears in-game cinematic) and all region sound/voice/music. So until we can create all these textures, models and locations faster and more economically, we're not just filling up these high density discs with quality content. Therefore, as easily as the PS3 can stream data, so can the 360, so its not larger or richer, as the odds are good that developers are not going to generate 5 times the content just because they can, so the point is moot, and the PS3 still has less ram. Remember that streaming HIGH quality data isn't cheap, which is why games like Saints Row and Just Cause don't look as good as Gears. There's a bandwidth limit to incoming data into memory, and despite the 360's faster drive, Volition admitted they took out aircraft as, without a guarantee of a harddrive being available, they couldn't stream the data fast enough to allow for that gameplay. So as you can see, faster drive and more memory STILL do not lead to superior looking graphics when streaming data, so what are you left with? Data that can be loaded at once for greater play duration, loaded at checkpoints, like Oblivion and Gears. Therefore, as per my previous comment, PS3's hefty drive seek and slower loading and smaller memory footprint means that it will be no greater than what the 360 is capable of.

Now, keep in mind that we're not just talking quantity, but quality. As I've said in another thread, three years ago we (our team) were creating assets for UXO before it got canned, and we only had 1 1024x diffuse texture w/alpha, and about 1000 - 2000 poly models. Today our Unreal 3 projects have at least 5 times the texture count (e.g. diffuse, specular, gloss, normal, ambient occlusion, self-illumination), all so far have been authored at 4096x, downsampled to 2048x. The models are now 7,000 - 20,000 polys, and that doesn't include the 2 million polygon highpoly model for normals and lightmap generation. A UXO character could take a week or two, today these characters are going to take at least a month.

As far as streaming into games, it all depends on the type of game doesnt it? im sure a game like syberia with 3d models and 2d backgrounds and very slow pacing, could benefit hugely from HD video streaming.

Surely these new models take up more space? - i understand your point about development costs and time. But surely you agree as time goes on games are only going to get bigger? And again, i really dont care about ps3 vs 360, i am just stating my opinion that having a large storage medium is not a negative.

[Dale Baldwin]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Look, you're being obnoxious again. Please stop.

I couldn't have put that any better. Ps3Lover, you're on your last strike. There is some intelligent conversation going on here; there's no need to keep disrupting it.

[Ps3Lover]

Sure, ill stop... If you call it intelligent to strike people out, because of my english spelling... anyway back to the topic.

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

I thought it was established that the Blu-Ray drive reading speed was consistant, while on a normal DVD it wasn't. Which means that the DVD is faster than the Blu-Ray if it ran at full speed all the time, which it clearly doesn't.

That's not even close to being logical. For you to make such assumptions you'd have to know the consistant speed which the Blu-Ray drive reads, and the minimum, maximum, and curve the DVD drive takes, to compare them. Keep in mind that Blu-Ray is x2 speed, so it's consistant speed is very close to the minimum speed of the DVD drive in the Xbox 360. If it was a Blu-Ray x1 speed drive it wouldn't even reach the DVD drive's minimum speed, if it was x4 speed the consistant speed would be over the maximum of the DVD drive speed.

Originally Posted by Litrick

As i said in my original post, i beleive developers will be utilising the extra space the blu ray drive allows, (and i am not saying this because i am pro ps3, because i am not) and i beleive microsoft will use their HD DVD drive for 360 games, but only time will tell.

We will see. I thought developers were doing a lot of dialogue already, at good quality. I'm sure a lot of JRPGs are going to be using all that extra space for millions of cutscenes.

[Ps3Lover]

Originally Posted by Aj_

We will see. I thought developers were doing a lot of dialogue already, at good quality. I'm sure a lot of JRPGs are going to be using all that extra space for millions of cutscenes.

Not only cutscenes, but music and Spoken dialogue too !
Understand this, Bigger space is better. It always is..
or are you still on a 5GB hard drive on your pc ? should be enough right? to play for example Runaway 2 .. get over it. more space is better.

And speed doesn`t matter much.only slight loading difference.

[Spiwak]

Originally Posted by Ps3Lover

OMG, thats what i mean Amigo !! read better
Btw, are you an interpreter or intrepid ?

but you didn`t read posts that well.
that explains why you didn`t understand.

ohh, but you can read my last reply ? what odd ...
some sort of denial here....

If you call it intelligent to strike people out, because of my english spelling...

or are you still on a 5GB hard drive on your pc ? should be enough right? to play for example Runaway 2 .. get over it. more space is better.

Does every post have to carry some sort of back-handed comment with it? There's no reason to get so excited about this argument. It's just consoles.

[Ps3Lover]

well, its a discussion forum ! DUH !
And just consoles?? most consoles nowadays looks and acts more like a pc.
If you don`t believe me, buy one !

[Dasilva]

Someone needs a panning...

[MdaG]

I just wanna add that I feel approximately the same as CrimsonBlue, you're not alone here buddy

[Ps3Lover]

Well, i had it in this discussion.. Everyone is blame of flame me..
because of my words im using.

Im really sorry if it comes hard on you.

[CrimsonBlue]

Originally Posted by MdaG

I just wanna add that I feel approximately the same as CrimsonBlue, you're not alone here buddy

Ah, good to know. I was starting to think there was something wrong with me.