09-27-2005, 08:50 AM | #61 |
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But the villains don't make up the whole game. What do you think giant robots, cloning and genetic engineering, make-believe items and gadgets, flying saucers and the futuristic setting is?
Do the villains count more than these other elements? And why isn't super-natural science fiction? There's an equal amount of normal enemies as there is super-natural enemies. And the guards in the first MGS games are genetically altered to strengthen their hearing and eyesight. Isn't this science fiction? In other words, you can't use the few fantasy elements that exists in the game to prove it's a fantasy game when there's at at least twice as many science fiction elements in the game. You can't just ignore these other elements and say "this counts as proof and this doesn't". |
09-27-2005, 09:01 AM | #62 | |
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EDIT: Allow me to clarify something... I just thought of a pretty decent example. The Indiana Jones movies. How would you describe them? Action adventure right? Though they're in the style of the serials of the 30's and 40's, they are action adventure stories. Now, just because every single Indiana Jones film has horrific supernatural elements and religious content, would we call them horror films or religious films? No one would. By that same token, I've honestly never heard the Metal Gear Solid games described as science fiction until this thread. Action adventure in the style of anime, American movies, comic books...now all of that I've heard. But science fiction? It was news to me. If that's the way you all think of the games, that's fine. But do any of you consider the Indiana Jones movies horror, supernatural, or religious films? Last edited by Once A Villain; 09-27-2005 at 09:24 AM. |
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09-27-2005, 01:57 PM | #63 |
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Got a new sig...
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09-27-2005, 02:11 PM | #64 |
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Ha ha. I like it SamNMax.
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09-27-2005, 02:51 PM | #65 | ||||||||
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The truth is that there is no such thing as an original idea. We could make a similar list for any movie, video game, book, or other story ever made. Because every element in every story has been done somewhere before. It's how those elements are put together that makes a story original or not. If Metal Gear Solid had been about Snake going into New York, which has been converted into a maximum security prison, to rescue the president, then you might have a point about it being a rip-off of Escape from New York. As it is, your entire list is made up of minor, irrelevent quibbles that have no bearing on the overall quality of the game. It's like people who say that the episode of Babylon 5 where Sheridan was tortured was ripping off 1984, when in reality, they were both based on standard, real-life torture practices (which is the same with the torture scenes in Metal Gear Solid). Or people who say that Star Wars ripped off The Lord of the Rings, when in reality, they were both based on Jungian archetypes. Everything you're talking about is little more than blatant fanboyism. Quote:
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What I said about your opinion is that it makes you wrong. You're still wrong. Factually and inarguably wrong. mag |
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09-27-2005, 03:40 PM | #66 | |||||||||
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rip-off (rĭp'Ă´f', -ŏf') n. Slang. Definition 4. Something, such as a film or story, that is clearly imitative of or based on something else. Quote:
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When it comes to stuff like the cloaking or the jeep scene or the occasional Michael Bay shot, none of that would bother me as much if it wasn't surrounded by other scenes that also blatantly rip off other sources. It's the combination of them all in quick succession throughout an entire MGS game, that's the problem. Look, I actually like the Metal Gear Solid 3 opening credit sequence. The Snake Eater song and the visual style. But I'm sorry, I'm the type that immediately said, "Ok, that's obviously a rip off of the Goldfinger introduction." The visuals AND the song make it blatantly obvious. You might have missed that mag, but it doesn't mean it's not there. And that's basically how I feel about almost every cutscene in a Kojima game. Quote:
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09-27-2005, 08:05 PM | #67 | |
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09-27-2005, 08:16 PM | #68 | ||||||||||
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The sequence with The Sorrow is strange, but certainly not enough to remove the game from the realm of science fiction. Especially considering that such an experience is entirely possible, since the entire encounter appears to take place in a dream. Fortune? Psycho Mantis? Telepathy and telekinesis are common themes in science fiction. So I don't see what the problem is there. The Pain? Still scifi as far as I can tell. Quote:
Let's face it. All of the villains in MGS are classic scifi bad guys. Everything in MGS is science fiction. Quote:
mag |
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09-27-2005, 08:18 PM | #69 |
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I don't know. I think you need to be discuraged more than him on this one.
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09-27-2005, 08:24 PM | #70 | |
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09-27-2005, 08:26 PM | #71 |
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I didn't read any of the debate, but just know that mag is dangerous. He won't - can't accept defeat. That is his gift. That is his curse.
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09-27-2005, 09:04 PM | #72 | |||||||||
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09-27-2005, 09:07 PM | #73 | |
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09-27-2005, 09:11 PM | #74 |
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Metal Gear Solid 2 sucked.
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09-27-2005, 09:11 PM | #75 | |
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09-28-2005, 01:49 AM | #76 |
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wow, this topic went red hot from the last time i was here, but i think that everyone is making good points. i think that one thing i was very impressed with in the metal gear solid trilogy was the great dialogue and vioce acting, mainly in the telecommunication sequences. i think that some of them are highly complex and intriquing, for example at the end of mgs2:substance when raiden is talking to the chief and rose on top of that famous building in new york, the dialogue is fantastic regardless of kojimas 'hack'-ness...
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09-28-2005, 03:39 AM | #77 | |
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I can accept defeat when somebody actually proves me to be wrong. I can't accept defeat when I'm talking to a crazed fanboy who can only spout insane nonsense. mag |
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09-28-2005, 07:08 AM | #78 |
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^Exactly, as Villain hasn't made one compelling argument to support his side, strickly miring it in opinion, and an inflexible and unreasonable one at that.
Conceding defeat, as mag put it, is reserved for those with good reason to, and there isn't one for mag yet. Of course, I believe Sam was being facetious so... Go get'em chief! Cheers |
09-28-2005, 08:15 AM | #79 | ||
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09-28-2005, 09:03 AM | #80 | |
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Now you've done the first part. You showed that Metal Gear Solid has a lot of things that are derivative or based on other works. But I already knew that. Every work has those things. That does not mean that every work as a whole is unoriginal. And that's what you've failed to show. How is Metal Gear Solid, as a whole, unoriginal? Where's the connection? If we wanted to, we could make a similar list for Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice. We could say, well, the theme of upper class people not having sex was already very common. And the tone and dialogue are very similar to other Victorian novels. And Austen uses the name Catherine, which is the name of half of all Victorian era heroines. But it would be wrong for me to say, based on those things (which are relatively minor contentions anyway), that the story as a whole is unoriginal while ignoring everything else as well as the influence that Austen had on the romantic comedy genre. Of course, I suppose now you'll argue that Pride and Prejudice isn't really a romantic comedy. It's actually a psychological thriller. But you see the point. You can't say that Metal Gear Solid as a whole is unoriginal just because its individual elements have been used before. That's the same kind of thinking that says Star Wars ripped off The Lord of the Rings because they're both based on Jungian archetypes. By that standard, ALL stories are unoriginal, in which case Metal Gear Solid still is not special in that regard. And that's what makes you a fanboy--you demonstrate an overzealous attention to insignificant details, resulting in completely unrealistic definitions and ideas. As it is, you haven't "beaten" me. You haven't done anything but beat us over the head with your opinion. That doesn't show that you're right. It just shows that you lack the ability for rational thought. And I'm not going to continue responding to you repeating the same points that have already been shown to be wrong. I know it goes against your conservative thinking, but you can't win a debate simply through repetition. If you come up with an actual argument, I'd be glad to respond to it. But I'm not going to just keep going in circles with you. If you want to know my opinion of your last post, go back a page to where I responded to the exact same points the first time. mag |
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