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Old 09-25-2005, 12:09 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by EvoG
Just to add my disagreement to the assesment that Kojima is a hack, as he is one of the few brilliant designers in our field, but, and this is a big one, he listened to his fans.
I think it's also important to note that Kojima knows when NOT to listen to his fans. With each new MGS game, he's taken the series in very bold new directions. And despite the protests of fans at not being able to play as Snake in MGS2 or at MGS3 taking place in the 1960s, the series turned out to be much better for it. And MGS4 looks like it's going to do the same thing. If Kojima had given fans exactly what they wanted (or at least, what they thought they wanted) we'd have three near identical clones of MGS1 with progressively better graphics.

Which is another reason why it's ridiculous to say that Kojima isn't original. Because each game in the series takes the story in a completely different direction. Every Metal Gear Solid game simply bleeds creativity.


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Originally Posted by Once A Villain
Then you've just been striken to think of me as ludicrous.
I think that much has already been established.


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Originally Posted by Once A Villain
Seeing as how it's a game, the gameplay is my primary interest.
Seeing as how the story is part of the game (especially in MGS, which has done the best job of any game I've ever seen of blending gameplay and storytelling), I think it's rather unfair to discount the role of the story when judging the quality of the game. The story was one of the things you were complaining about, after all.

Besides, even if we're just talking about gameplay, I think MGS holds its own against Splinter Cell quite well.


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Originally Posted by Once A Villain
The atmosphere is more realistic and the things that happen in SC are much closer to life than the far fetched "intrigue" of MGS.
I don't see why that matters at all. MGS is a scifi story. It's not a military documentary. It's not supposed to be realistic.


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Originally Posted by Once A Villain
Hmmm... I disagree, but not completely. The thing is, I was playing Metal Gear back in 1987 (ah, little seven year old me...) and if you want to consider that the birth of the "stealth action genre" then fine, yes, Kojima was a pioneer. But honestly, that game was too simple to be the father of the genre as it exists today. I remember it perfectly, right down to the glorious translations ("The truck have started to move!"). It was a fun game, but a stealth game in 3D is so much more dynamic and exciting that I consider the 3D "stealth action genre" to be the real innovator here. And the game that really invented that was probably Tenchu (it was the first I remember playing anyway).

Basically, I agree with you that Kojima deserves credit. In a sense, he did invent the genre. But the real leap forward (like Half-Life in the FPS genre) was Tenchu in my opinion. Granted, MGS was already in the making at that time and would be released a mere seven months later, but Tenchu beat it to the punch, and one could argue that it had equally good gameplay.
Obviously, there were other stealth games being made at the time. But if you ask anyone who knows about games to name the one person who most influenced the genre, I can almost guarantee you they'll say Hideo Kojima. He really is the father of this genre.


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Originally Posted by Once A Villain
That's an emotional reaction though, to plot, not gameplay. If that's how you want to judge MGS against SC, that's fine of course. But I think it's a bit unfair. Splinter Cell is much more about gameplay, less about plot. It makes no attempt to have an epic ending or storyline.
As I said, it's a matter of what you're looking to get out of the game. Which is why I don't consider either one to be better than the other. The plot is part of the game. You can't say that we can't compare plots just because that's a point on which Splinter Cell is weak. If we're going to compare these games, then we should compare the whole games.

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Old 09-25-2005, 12:51 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Once A Villain
That's an emotional reaction though, to plot, not gameplay. If that's how you want to judge MGS against SC, that's fine of course. But I think it's a bit unfair. Splinter Cell is much more about gameplay, less about plot. It makes no attempt to have an epic ending or storyline.
Err, your ENTIRE first post(and parts of the others) went on about his lack of 'directing' ability and storytelling, and all the techniques he "stole" from other directors, which you specifically cited, so I'm rather baffled by your response, as I was replying to THAT post...

SC, despite being a fun game to play, is not any more fun than MGS(or rather, MGS isn't any less fun than SC), but fails miserably in emotional impact in comparison. I get BOTH in MGS, and despite the whole nebulous arguments about how much games should be just games and how much narrative they should they have, when both are an option, why not exercise both?

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Also, the SC games have plenty of attention to detail. The environments actually look a lot better than the ones in MGS3, and as for production values...it's hard for me to take MGS seriously when they are still in the dark ages of RCA cables and 4:3 screens.
I'm not talking just technical attention to detail, but character and story; artistic attention to detail. The difference between a great game and a masterpiece. As for your second comment about RCA and aspect ratios...uh, okay, so?

You also ignored the rest of my commenting regarding the updated version of MGS3, which addresses issues you have strong feelings about.

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Old 09-25-2005, 01:59 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by mag
Seeing as how the story is part of the game (especially in MGS, which has done the best job of any game I've ever seen of blending gameplay and storytelling), I think it's rather unfair to discount the role of the story when judging the quality of the game. The story was one of the things you were complaining about, after all.

Besides, even if we're just talking about gameplay, I think MGS holds its own against Splinter Cell quite well.
It's a part of the game for sure, and I don't mean to discount it. I simply mean that gameplay is more important to me than watching cutscenes that comprise half the game length (if the cutscenes were extremely good then I might have a different opinion, but it's clear when I see them why Kojima could never become anything more than a "by the numbers" film director). As for MGS gameplay, it's fine. I simply prefer to have control of the camera and I feel that there's more I can do in a SC game, plus better A.I. For most of MGS3 I could just run from location to location to avoid being caught. In SC each mission is in one large area with no separate areas to load. Running from place to place doesn't really help.

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Originally Posted by mag
I don't see why that matters at all. MGS is a scifi story. It's not a military documentary. It's not supposed to be realistic.
Is that why Kojima uses real places, historical events, etc. in his stories? It's like a hybrid between a comic book and realism. I don't mind that either. Sci/fi it isn't though. Not in my opinion. The villains are pure comic book.

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Obviously, there were other stealth games being made at the time. But if you ask anyone who knows about games to name the one person who most influenced the genre, I can almost guarantee you they'll say Hideo Kojima. He really is the father of this genre.
I can guarantee most of them will say Kojima too. It's the popular and common answer. But I do happen to know plenty who argue that Tenchu was the real beginning of what we think of as the stealth action genre, and since the lead designer isn't as well known as Kojima, it would be hard to put a face on that "father" wouldn't it?

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Originally Posted by mag
As I said, it's a matter of what you're looking to get out of the game. Which is why I don't consider either one to be better than the other. The plot is part of the game. You can't say that we can't compare plots just because that's a point on which Splinter Cell is weak. If we're going to compare these games, then we should compare the whole games.
I agree with that. That's why I said it's fine if Evo wants to judge that way. But when comparing both games, I personally don't choose to say that Splinter Cell is inferior because it doesn't have a massively convoluted plot starring homosexual vampires, floating hornet men, and a guy who shoots electric bolts. The two franchises are obviously going for a different feel.

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Originally Posted by EvoG
Err, your ENTIRE first post(and parts of the others) went on about his lack of 'directing' ability and storytelling, and all the techniques he "stole" from other directors, which you specifically cited, so I'm rather baffled by your response, as I was replying to THAT post...

SC, despite being a fun game to play, is not any more fun than MGS(or rather, MGS isn't any less fun than SC), but fails miserably in emotional impact in comparison. I get BOTH in MGS, and despite the whole nebulous arguments about how much games should be just games and how much narrative they should they have, when both are an option, why not exercise both?
I can't really share your enthusiasm for the "emotional impact" of MGS because I didn't realize there was any. But I still believe Splinter Cell has better gameplay, and a much better camera. I agree that games should exercise both options (story and gameplay). Splinter Cell does, just in a different style.

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Originally Posted by EvoG
I'm not talking just technical attention to detail, but character and story; artistic attention to detail. The difference between a great game and a masterpiece. As for your second comment about RCA and aspect ratios...uh, okay, so?

You also ignored the rest of my commenting regarding the updated version of MGS3, which addresses issues you have strong feelings about.
Again I apologise for not knowing what you meant. I thought you meant technical attention to detail because I wasn't aware that the MGS games had any character, story, or artistic attention to detail. But I wouldn't say "uh, ok, so" about RCA and aspect ratios. It enhances the experience as anyone who plays games that way would agree. As for the updated MGS3, I'll have to try it sometime. I liked the regular version fine. It was in my Top 10 favorite games last year.
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Old 09-25-2005, 03:15 PM   #24
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Is that why Kojima uses real places, historical events, etc. in his stories? It's like a hybrid between a comic book and realism. I don't mind that either. Sci/fi it isn't though. Not in my opinion. The villains are pure comic book.
I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. Scifi stories often use real places, historical events, etc. By that definition, Star Trek, The Terminator, Back to the Future, Independence Day, The X-Files--none of these are science fiction. That's absurd. And comic books, by the way, are often science fiction too. Comic books are a medium, not a genre. The comic book villains you're talking about are from scifi stories written for comic books.


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I can guarantee most of them will say Kojima too. It's the popular and common answer.
It's also the correct answer.


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Originally Posted by Once A Villain
I can't really share your enthusiasm for the "emotional impact" of MGS because I didn't realize there was any.
In that case, you should try playing it again. If you don't think the ending of MGS3 has an emotional impact, then you're just dead inside.

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Old 09-25-2005, 03:38 PM   #25
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I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. Scifi stories often use real places, historical events, etc. By that definition, Star Trek, The Terminator, Back to the Future, Independence Day, The X-Files--none of these are science fiction. That's absurd. And comic books, by the way, are often science fiction too. Comic books are a medium, not a genre. The comic book villains you're talking about are from scifi stories written for comic books.
The style of MGS reminds me very much of a comic book or anime, and very little of sci/fi. That's just the way it is. Besides, the only one of those you mentioned that I would really consider sci/fi would be Star Trek (and maybe The X-Files). The others have sci/fi elements, but are better defined as action, comedy, mystery, or what have you.

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It's also the correct answer.
Actually, for 3D stealth action games as we think of them today, it is indeed the wrong answer.

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Originally Posted by mag
In that case, you should try playing it again. If you don't think the ending of MGS3 has an emotional impact, then you're just dead inside.
No, I've just seen the exact same issues tackled far better in other stories and other mediums. That's like saying if you don't cry at the end of Simon Birch (or insert the name of another Hollywood "tear jerker") you are dead inside. I'm sorry, Simon Birch was manipulative drivel that I found funny even as old ladies were creating rivers in the theater.

MGS3 had a very cool climactic sequence, and a very cool ending that revealed the motives of the man (Big Boss) previously known in the series as just a villain. Does the ending make me more sympathetic to Big Boss and give the series a degree of complexity it never had before? Yes. But a real emotional impact? Like, some sort of powerful effect it had on me? I'm sorry, it just didn't.

EDIT: By the way mag...with respect to our mutual hatred for the New England Patriots I would just like to say: DAMN IT!
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Old 09-25-2005, 03:51 PM   #26
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The style of MGS reminds me very much of a comic book or anime, and very little of sci/fi. That's just the way it is. Besides, the only one of those you mentioned that I would really consider sci/fi would be Star Trek (and maybe The X-Files). The others have sci/fi elements, but are better defined as action, comedy, mystery, or what have you.
That someone who defines himself as such a huge film fan can have such an obvious ignorance of what it means for a story to be defined as science fiction I think betrays quite a bit about your opinion on MGS in general. Since I don't really feel like getting into a prolonged debate about the details of it right now, suffice it to say that you're wrong. Everything you said in the above post is just hideously, hideously wrong.

Except for the thing about the Patriots. Damn, I hate the Patriots!

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Old 09-25-2005, 03:56 PM   #27
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That someone who defines himself as such a huge film fan can have such an obvious ignorance of what it means for a story to be defined as science fiction I think betrays quite a bit about your opinion on MGS in general. Since I don't really feel like getting into a prolonged debate about the details of it right now, suffice it to say that you're wrong. Everything you said in the above post is just hideously, hideously wrong.

Except for the thing about the Patriots. Damn, I hate the Patriots!

mag
Cool. That makes it easy on me. If you are going to sink to that level, I get to do the same. It's only fair.

You are wrong mag! That's all! The end.

EDIT: Actually, you'll probably realize in a few hours that the reason for your nutty reaction is your sadness about the Steelers losing, but I still thought I'd have a little fun with it.
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Old 09-25-2005, 04:29 PM   #28
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We know what science is, don't we? And we know what fiction is. Put those together and you have Science Fiction. Fictive Science. Movies/books/games with stories that for the most part are based on science that doesn't really exist, but is made up. Therefore, Metal Gear Solid stories are pure science fiction.

And the ending of Metal Gear Solid 3 should touch every humans heart, no matter how cold you are. It's one of the best and most beautiful endings ever in a computer game. It was extremely well presented. I don't think I've ever been as close to shedding a tear for a videogame character than this. I can only think of the Aeris scene and the Final Fantasy X ending as close contenders. And of course the part in MGS2, with E.E.
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Old 09-25-2005, 04:53 PM   #29
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Thank you, Crimson. Yes, science fiction can be set anywhere, any time. It can use real places, real events, real people, whatever. Pretty much, if it's fictional and it's based on some real or imagined science or technology, it's science fiction. That's why many scifi writers prefer the term "speculative fiction." A story is science fiction in addition to being an action, comedy, or mystery. The Terminator is an action film. It is also a science fiction film. Futurama is a comedy. It is also science fiction. The reason Metal Gear Solid reminds you of comic books and anime is because comic books and anime are usually science fiction. I've seen the term "science fiction" defined a lot of ways, but the only people I've seen define it as strictly as you have are crazed fanboys. Metal Gear Solid is very firmly in the scifi genre. Period. End of discussion. You can choose to believe otherwise if you wish, but you would be wrong.

Kojima's games have had a greater influence on the stealth game genre than any other game. Anyone who knows anything about the subject will say so, and it's not just because they want to be popular. It's because they know what they're talking about. Metal Gear created the genre. Metal Gear Solid redefined the genre. And Tenchu may have come out a few months earlier, but in terms of influence on the genre, Metal Gear Solid still wins.

And I never said you had to cry at the ending to MGS3, but its emotional impact is undeniable.

So there. You dragged it out of me. I just wasted valuable time explaining all the reasons why you're wrong about things you should have already known were wrong. Happy now?

And the Patriots still suck.

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Old 09-25-2005, 04:53 PM   #30
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We know what science is, don't we? And we know what fiction is. Put those together and you have Science Fiction. Fictive Science. Movies/books/games with stories that for the most part are based on science that doesn't really exist, but is made up. Therefore, Metal Gear Solid stories are pure science fiction.

And the ending of Metal Gear Solid 3 should touch every humans heart, no matter how cold you are. It's one of the best and most beautiful endings ever in a computer game. It was extremely well presented. I don't think I've ever been as close to shedding a tear for a videogame character than this. I can only think of the Aeris scene and the Final Fantasy X ending as close contenders. And of course the part in MGS2, with E.E.
I'm not saying there aren't science fiction elements. I never said that. I simply believe that when describing a film, game, whatever...there should be a genre that the work fits into more than the others. Just like in a book store, you've got sections depending on what type of book you are seeking. Some books may have elements within them that are better defined by another section, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be moved into that section. You have to go with what the overall genre is.

Back to the Future has sci/fi elements, yes. The Terminator, ditto. Independence Day, sure. But BTTF is a comedy, and The Terminator and Independence Day are better defined as action films. In that sense, MGS3 I believe classifies as action as well, or maybe drama. In terms of style, it's like a comic book or Japanese animation (despite all of the influence Hollywood films had on Kojima). But science fiction it's not. At least not in my view. I've never seen it as such.

And please, not everyone will be touched by the ending of MGS3 just like there are many people who aren't moved at the end of Au Hasard Balthazar or City Lights (two films which, it has been argued, have extremely powerful endings).

EDIT: How convenient. This works as my response to both of you.
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Old 09-26-2005, 04:44 AM   #31
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I'm not saying there aren't science fiction elements. I never said that. I simply believe that when describing a film, game, whatever...there should be a genre that the work fits into more than the others. Just like in a book store, you've got sections depending on what type of book you are seeking. Some books may have elements within them that are better defined by another section, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be moved into that section. You have to go with what the overall genre is.
I'm not Barnes & Noble. I'm not trying to find shelf space for the game. I'm a person having a conversation. And I would expect the people I'm talking to to understand that Metal Gear Solid is science fiction in addition to being action. What you're suggesting is like saying, "No, Monkey Island isn't a comedy. It's an adventure game." They're two completely different kinds of genres. One describes the theme and tone of the game. The other describes the gameplay. It's the same thing with science fiction. Calling something science fiction doesn't tell you whether it's action, comedy, mystery, whatever. Nor does it tell you whether the game is an adventure game, a strategy game, a role playing game, etc.

Besides, even if we were to go by your book store example, Metal Gear Solid would be more likely to be placed in the science fiction section than anywhere else.

MGS is undeniably science fiction. Just suck up the loss, and move on with your life.

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Old 09-26-2005, 07:21 AM   #32
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Besides, even if we were to go by your book store example, Metal Gear Solid would be more likely to be placed in the science fiction section than anywhere else.

MGS is undeniably science fiction. Just suck up the loss, and move on with your life.
Doubtful. If it was a movie it would almost surely be in the action section, and movies are what inspire Kojima anyway. If anyone will be sucking up a loss it'll have to be you, but frankly, I don't care if you consider MGS to be science fiction. I just never have. And when I mentioned it to several people I know: "Do you think the Metal Gear Solid games are science fiction?" they laughed in my face and asked me where I came up with such a stupid idea.

Besides, as action adventure Metal Gear Solid is far more successful. As science fiction, it would be weak. In other words, it holds up much better against action stuff. Against sci/fi stuff it would likely be considered a joke since the sci/fi elements are about as intelligent as what we see in SpaceBalls (some of the ideas are actually fine, but even fictional science is demeaned by having villains that float around in a pack of hornets or exist as a ghost and challenge you in some sort of almost-afterlife). I would sooner call Metal Gear Solid a fantasy myself, which is the same way I feel about Star Wars. When I play Metal Gear games it's the action (including stealth) that stands out in the gameplay, with a lineup of comic book villains to mow down, and about ten hours of movie sequences that remind me mostly of anime with some elements of poor Hollywood film influences. That's what the MGS games are to me.
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Old 09-26-2005, 08:05 AM   #33
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This is one of the most inane converstations I think I ever read here. I think I used the words 'pseduo-intellectual' in another thread recently, and I have to say perhaps I was too rash. I should've saved it for this thread right here.


Good luck with this guy mag, I feel for you. No really, I even have your emote ready...




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Old 09-26-2005, 08:41 AM   #34
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This is one of the most inane converstations I think I ever read here. I think I used the words 'pseduo-intellectual' in another thread recently, and I have to say perhaps I was too rash. I should've saved it for this thread right here.
EvoG, I agree. Not sure what pseduo-intellectual means, but I know that pseudo-intellectual is a great description for Kojima and the MGS games. Nice call.
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Old 09-26-2005, 08:54 AM   #35
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EvoG, I agree. Not sure what pseduo-intellectual means, but I know that pseudo-intellectual is a great description for Kojima and the MGS games. Nice call.

I'm not meaning to offer up an ad-hominem comment, but may I ask, honestly, are you in highschool or at the very least, no older than say 19-20? I'm being serious, so I can repsect the two grounds we are speaking from. Insight if you will.
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:00 AM   #36
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I'm not meaning to offer up an ad-hominem comment, but may I ask, honestly, are you in highschool? I'm being serious, so I can repsect the two grounds we are speaking from. Insight if you will.
No, I'm not in high school. Are you? I'm 25. If you read what is being said you will see that I'm the one coming at this from a stance that is critically unbiased. I'm making solid points. Why don't you try to do the same? Or perhaps you haven't reached the grade in school yet where they teach intelligence. Oh wait, you might have to be born with that. Hmmm...

Ok I'll make it easy on you. Why don't you explain how the Metal Gear Solid games are science fiction when the villains have nothing to do with science (even fictional science), and EVERYTHING to do with fantasy, comic books, anime, etc. Explain to me the science of a man flying around in a ball of hornets or a ghost that has a boss battle with you when you're between life and death. That's straight out of A Nightmare on Elm Street. Maybe MGS is horror.
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:04 AM   #37
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Doubtful. If it was a movie it would almost surely be in the action section, and movies are what inspire Kojima anyway.
If we're using your bookstore analogy, it's unlikely that it would be located anywhere other than science fiction. Scifi is where all of those kinds of books are located--Halo, Resident Evil, etc. I've even seen a Metal Gear Solid comic in the science fiction section at Barnes and Noble. So I'm not just making this up.

If it was a movie, it probably would be listed under action, but that still doesn't mean it's not also science fiction. They're two completely different kinds of genres. Action has to do with the tone and pace. Scifi has more to do with plot and setting.


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If anyone will be sucking up a loss it'll have to be you, but frankly, I don't care if you consider MGS to be science fiction. I just never have. And when I mentioned it to several people I know: "Do you think the Metal Gear Solid games are science fiction?" they laughed in my face and asked me where I came up with such a stupid idea.
Well, you do live in Texas. So it doesn't surprise me that you're surrounded by people who don't know what they're talking about.

I don't really care what your opinion is or how many people you know who also don't know what science fiction means. You are wrong. Factually wrong. There is no reasonable definition of the term science fiction you can come up with that would not include Metal Gear Solid.


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Besides, as action adventure Metal Gear Solid is far more successful. As science fiction, it would be weak. In other words, it holds up much better against action stuff. Against sci/fi stuff it would likely be considered a joke since the sci/fi elements are about as intelligent as what we see in SpaceBalls (some of the ideas are actually fine, but even fictional science is demeaned by having villains that float around in a pack of hornets or exist as a ghost and challenge you in some sort of almost-afterlife). I would sooner call Metal Gear Solid a fantasy myself, which is the same way I feel about Star Wars. When I play Metal Gear games it's the action (including stealth) that stands out in the gameplay, with a lineup of comic book villains to mow down, and about ten hours of movie sequences that remind me mostly of anime with some elements of poor Hollywood film influences. That's what the MGS games are to me.
That was a truly impressive display of stupidity. However, what you're thinking of is what's known as "hard science fiction." That is but one particular subdivision of science fiction. Not all scifi necessarily has to have that level of attention to accuracy and scientific detail. In fact, a lot of hard scifi actually tends to be rather dry and boring. Metal Gear Solid would likely fall more under the soft science fiction label. In soft science fiction, the scientific principles don't necessarily have to be real or accurate in any way.

You can't judge the quality of a work of science fiction based on whether or not it can be used as a doctoral thesis. Metal Gear Solid isn't trying to educate the world about science, just as the majority of the scifi genre isn't trying to educate the world about science. It's trying to tell a story. It's simply using the scientific principles that audiences are already familiar with as a foundation.

It's ridiculous to say that a story is a good action story but a weak science fiction story. It's either a good story, or it's not. If it's a good story, and it's science fiction, then it's a good science fiction story.


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Good luck with this guy mag, I feel for you. No really, I even have your emote ready...
Tell me about it. I don't even know why I bother arguing with him. I already know it's not going to do any good. He's invulnerable to logic. But sometimes I see him write something so insanely idiotic that I just have to respond.

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Old 09-26-2005, 09:16 AM   #38
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If we're using your bookstore analogy, it's unlikely that it would be located anywhere other than science fiction. Scifi is where all of those kinds of books are located--Halo, Resident Evil, etc. I've even seen a Metal Gear Solid comic in the science fiction section at Barnes and Noble. So I'm not just making this up.

If it was a movie, it probably would be listed under action, but that still doesn't mean it's not also science fiction. They're two completely different kinds of genres. Action has to do with the tone and pace. Scifi has more to do with plot and setting.
And the tone and pace of MGS is that of an action film. Even the plot of MGS has only elements of sci/fi throughout. In fact, MGS3 had very little science fiction. It had some fantasy elements though, mostly the bosses.

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Originally Posted by mag
Well, you do live in Texas. So it doesn't surprise me that you're surrounded by people who don't know what they're talking about.

I don't really care what your opinion is or how many people you know who also don't know what science fiction means. You are wrong. Factually wrong. There is no reasonable definition of the term science fiction you can come up with that would not include Metal Gear Solid.
The friends I talked to are all people I know in San Diego actually. But nice try... And it is you that is wrong. Factually wrong. As I said to EvoG, explain to me the science behind The Pain, The Sorrow, etc.

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Originally Posted by mag
That was a truly impressive display of stupidity. However, what you're thinking of is what's known as "hard science fiction." That is but one particular subdivision of science fiction. Not all scifi necessarily has to have that level of attention to accuracy and scientific detail. In fact, a lot of hard scifi actually tends to be rather dry and boring. Metal Gear Solid would likely fall more under the soft science fiction label. In soft science fiction, the scientific principles don't necessarily have to be real or accurate in any way.
So they're better defined as fantasy. Exactly.

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Originally Posted by mag
It's ridiculous to say that a story is a good action story but a weak science fiction story. It's either a good story, or it's not. If it's a good story, and it's science fiction, then it's a good science fiction story.
I'm being kind is all. I'm saying that Metal Gear Solid is more at home among Die Hard and Terminator 2 than it is among, say, 2001: A Space Odyssey or Tarkovsky's Solaris.

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Originally Posted by mag
Tell me about it. I don't even know why I bother arguing with him. I already know it's not going to do any good. He's invulnerable to logic. But sometimes I see him write something so insanely idiotic that I just have to respond.
Ack! Now I'm forced to admit that's the same reason I reply to you. I get a lot less frustrated than you do though. I guess it's not in my nature to let pseudo-intellectuals bother me.

To be honest though, I don't really care if you or EvoG or any other misled soul believes that Metal Gear Solid is some great work of science fiction. It doesn't bother me. I'm simply defending my position which is that of not seeing it as science fiction.
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:33 AM   #39
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Are we talking about MGS3 or the Metal Gear Solid series in general? Because, I must admit, MGS3 has much less sci/fi elements in it than for example MGS1 and 2. Both MGS1 and 2 are sci/fi action/stealth games. MGS3 is more of an action game with fantasy elements, set in a fictional past.

I also think you're mixing up the genres. A game can be a sci/fi action game. The Sci/fi explains the settings, the theme of the game. While the action part explains the gameplay.

Metal Gear Solid 1/2

Genre: Action/stealth, Theme: Sci/Fi

Shortened, it's a sci/fi action/stealth game.

Metal Gear Solid 3

Genre: Action/stealth, Theme: Cold War/Historical Sci/Fi, Fantasy

You know what I mean by now...
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:36 AM   #40
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No, I'm not in high school. Are you? I'm 25. If you read what is being said you will see that I'm the one coming at this from a stance that is critically unbiased. I'm making solid points. Why don't you try to do the same? Or perhaps you haven't reached the grade in school yet where they teach intelligence. Oh wait, you might have to be born with that. Hmmm...

This is where I stop talking to someone like you. You clearly misunderstood the intent of my last post and IMMEDIATELY became defensive and retaliated, resorting to attacking my character and intelligence, when I meant no malice.

Whatever man, 25 years old and you still behave like this..bravo.
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