Originally Posted by mag

Well, if you think I'm the one who needs to accept defeat, I'd say it rather goes without saying that you didn't read any of the debate.

mag

And there is no reason for me to read a bunch of posts on an internet message board by some pricks who get into a hostile debate over a fanboy franchise such as Metal Gear. I just like to post stupid shit in these threads because it's just so funny to see a couple of posters think they have to prove something so inconsequential, such something about a videogame, that they fill up 50 pages full of stupid argument and personal insults until a mod closes the thread. 'Cause, you know,

T3H INTERWEB IS SERIOUS BUSINESS!T3H INTERWEB IS SERIOUS BUSINESS!

[mag]

Now what the **** was the point of that? I mean, I know you only like to use the internet to post stupid, insignificant shit. But some of us also like to use it to have conversations with a little more depth. And frankly, I'm getting a little tired of you coming in and bitching every time people start to discuss anything more intellectual than "I'm going to Taco Bell." If you don't like it, don't ****ing read it.

mag

Originally Posted by SamNMax

T3H INTERWEB IS SERIOUS BUSINESS!T3H INTERWEB IS SERIOUS BUSINESS!

[mag]

Dude. Seriously. Why are you being such a dick?

mag

[EvoG]

Yea seriously...while I agree, in hindsight, it may seem ridiculous to have an internet-argument, its not your place to police with what "you" exclusively feel is "inconsequential". This isn't fascism, and it isn't your decision. If we feel inclined to have these arguments, stupid or not, perhaps they are no different than an AG...for intellectual stimulation.

Why do you feel compelled to offer us or anyone your sole opinion that all of us are both "pricks" and "inconsequential"? Haven't you leveled yourself to where we supposedly are by then injecting your own brand of "prick" by showing us your distaste by being distasteful and spamming the discussion?

Keep in mind that people who 'establish' themselves in a community are under a different sort of influence when it comes to discussions turned arguments. Passersby usually shouldn't care; its a faceless person they are talking/arguing with and shrug it off. People that join a community and become a known quantity though, develop and sense of self that is just as substantial as if you were at a bar and got into an argument. It still may be on the internet, and, like MOST arguments, may be stupid, but its no less tension swelling, and people dont like to be derided, virtually OR in person.

All of us in this case have ego's, and strong opinions. Regardless of any degeneration into name calling, we still feel we can influence opinion. You in fact are trying to influence us or whomever that this argument is inconsequential, so you clearly understand what I'm talking about.


Cheers

O rly?


Just kidding. Yeah. You're right.

I'm still going to be a dick, though.

[EvoG]

Originally Posted by SamNMax

O rly?


Just kidding. Yeah. You're right.

I'm still going to be a dick, though.

You know whats funny, you just saying what you said makes it alright now. Hehe

Carry on!


Cheers

Oh Snap

[Once A Villain]

mag, you are the one who hates logic. I have explained to you numerous times why the Metal Gear Solid games are unoriginal, it is you that keeps repeating points I have already proven wrong. One can't even say the gameplay is completely original in Metal Gear Solid because Tenchu was released seven months prior. But I suppose that's irrelevant because we both know this discussion isn't really about gameplay anymore. It's about Hideo Kojima as a storyteller in a visual medium. That's what we've been discussing when it comes right down to it.

As I've said before, and you apparently can't understand because you don't have the background that I do, far too many major scenes in a Metal Gear Solid game can be traced back to a specific scene in a specific film. The overall style, the action of the scene, the dialogue (usually more long winded in the MGS version), the way it's framed, you name it. This has nothing to do with Star Wars and Lord of the Rings using Jungian archetypes. It has nothing to do with the overall similarities in Victorian literature. The fact that you believe that simply proves you have no idea what I'm talking about. Then again, that's understandable since your knowledge of the films Kojima is ripping off is next to nil. Had I not seen and studied all of these movies to death then perhaps I would also believe Kojima was a creator with great originality. I will say one thing for Kojima...he's seen a lot more films than you have. Frankly, he has seen a lot more films than most gamers, and that's precisely why he gets away with this stuff and has a huge fanbase.

You have constantly avoided my questions when it comes to the very film history that Kojima draws upon, of which you have nearly no knowledge, while you still claim he doesn't rip-off specific scenes you've never even seen! As for the ones you've seen, as I stated, it's just not the same seeing one rip-off here and another rip-off there. If I only saw things here or there, I might not be so adamantly against Kojima being considered a decent storyteller. It's the fact that, as I've said one hundred times now it seems, Kojima borrows things for nearly every scene.

You also claim that the style of cloaking seen in Predator wasn't original at the time. Since there is no way that any human can see every film ever made and I could therefore have missed this effect in an older film, I offered you a chance to prove your claim. I asked you to name the films made before Predator that had the same visual style of cloaking that Predator had. You offered no reply.

Then you sit there and talk about how, "Yeah, it's really surprising that two men (Kurosawa and Kojima) from the same country with similar backgrounds would have similar ideas on a topic." As if you know anything about Kurosawa. I said I doubted you had ever seen a Kurosawa film, and you didn't challenge my opinion. I find that especially funny since you said: "I'm not making fun of you for one or two of your points being assinine. I'm making fun of you because they're ALL assinine. Every single one." This despite the fact that you apparently haven't even seen the two Kurosawa films I mentioned in points 1 and 2, though they are among his most well known. Anyway...so on and so forth. You are lucky in a sense, mag. If I were you, I wouldn't see how much of a hack Kojima was either. I might have been in your shoes in this argument.

Speaking of Kurosawa, have you ever heard of the Sergio Leone movie A Fistful of Dollars? It was a remake of Kurosawa's Yojimbo as a spaghetti Western starring Clint Eastwood. In that sense, Dollars was a rip-off. But Leone, unlike Kojima, had his own original style to add. When I watch A Fistful of Dollars, I do see a rip-off. It was. Kurosawa actually received compensation in an out-of-court settlement. At the same time, I see Leone's emergence as a great creator in his own right. Throughout the film one witnesses Leone's own personal style coming through each frame despite his dependence on Kurosawa's original work. One doesn't see this in anything by Kojima. He is content to be ordinary. He has no original style whatsoever in terms of his storytelling and cutscenes. He's not only dependent on the work of those that came before him, he is practically nothing without them.

What's odd through all of this is that you still stubbornly refuse to believe that Kojima rips anything off. You claim that Solid Snake isn't a rip-off of Snake Plissken. So I provided you with this definition of "rip-off" from the American Heritage dictionary: "Something, such as a film or story, that is clearly imitative of or based on something else." You reply with: "First of all, that's the worst definition of "rip-off" I've ever seen." You are challenging definitions of words now since the definition goes against your argument! At the same time you post Wikipedia crap that has been written by God knows who. Why don't you get the rip-off definition from Wiktionary since you can basically write it yourself.

Your entire "debate" here has been case after case of either avoiding what I say or simply not reading and comprehending what I say. It is clear that you have no knowledge of films or film history (unlike Kojima). Let us say you had a great deal of knowledge on the writings of John Steinbeck. Now, let's pretend that Metal Gear Solid is scene after scene of material that has clearly ripped off specific things (not just Jungian archetypes or trivial examples as would be the case with Jane Austen) from Steinbeck's body of work. Then there's a debate between you and a guy who knows nothing about Steinbeck. If the guy who knows nothing about Steinbeck is sitting there saying, "Metal Gear Solid has nothing to do with Steinbeck besides a few tiny references," you would laugh in his face. Well, that's precisely how you look to me in this debate. Funny. There's no other word for it. Look that one up in Wiktionary.

As for the sci/fi thing, I've already said Metal Gear Solid has elements of science fiction. You keep giving me examples that I'm already aware of. The fundamental difference here is, you believe that Metal Gear Solid is overwhelmingly a work of science fiction. I do not. I believe it is much more a work comprised of action and adventure. I gave the example of Indiana Jones, which you conventiently ignored again. I said:

"The Indiana Jones movies. How would you describe them? Action adventure right? Though they're in the style of the serials of the 30's and 40's, they are action adventure stories. Now, just because every single Indiana Jones film has horrific supernatural elements and religious content, would we call them horror films or religious films? No one would. By that same token, I've honestly never heard the Metal Gear Solid games described as science fiction until this thread. Action adventure in the style of anime, American movies, comic books...now all of that I've heard. But science fiction? It was news to me. If that's the way you all think of the games, that's fine. But do any of you consider the Indiana Jones movies horror, supernatural, or religious films?"

So tell me, do you mag? The Metal Gear Solid games have sci/fi elements but they are also filled with fantasy, statements about the nature of war, a soldier's purpose on the battlefield, evil governments, conspiracies, etc. All of this is wrapped up in an overall package that is closest to an action adventure story. Like Indiana Jones.

mag, face it, you will never convince everyone that Metal Gear Solid belongs firmly in the science fiction genre, soft or hard. Most people don't consider the Metal Gear Solid games to be science fiction games. In fact, I just came across this statement in an article from the videogame site 1UP.com:

"Once the Metal Gear Solid story is thus completed, Kojima again said that he'll be done with the series. The franchise may survive without him -- he says he'd be happy to see a fourth Metal Gear Solid project headed up by another creator -- but after that, he plans to work on something different. Maybe a return to science fiction (he continues to answer with a non-committal smile when asked about the prospect of a successor to Policenauts), or maybe something entirely new."

This makes it clear that the writer doesn't consider Metal Gear Solid to be science fiction, while Kojima's past games (Snatcher, Policenauts) are considered to be. I, and most other people as far as I can tell, agree with him. Anyone would be crazy to claim there are no science fiction elements in Metal Gear Solid. Of course there are. I've seen other statements such as: "part science fiction" or "the plot of Metal Gear Solid dips into science fiction", but I'm simply saying that when one takes the whole package into account, rarely does anyone walk away with the feeling that they just finished up a science fiction story.

Now mag, if we are going to continue this discussion, you must stop avoiding things I say and weaseling out of everything like some kind of damn coward. Come on man, didn't you go to college? Don't you know how to debate? Let's see some proof. I remember you used to always use that line: "Just because you say something enough doesn't make it true." Well, how about taking your own advice? You keep repeating yourself over and over thinking that if I hear your half-assed "points" enough, I'll suddenly see the light or something. If your points were actually good and based on anything factual, perhaps you would be right. But something has to change. Either have a point, or go away. But don't accuse me of not giving examples and stating facts. You're the one who has been avoiding so many things I've said because you have no rebuttal or knowledge of the subject.

[EvoG]

I'm trying to be objective, and still, despite LOTS of words in your last post, you said a whole lot of nothing. All you did was attack mag's ability to understand all that you've 'said', but methinks you THINK you said more than you have.

MGS is still completely original. You mentioned a Kurosawa film that was REMADE by Sergio Leone. I believe you are using this as an achor to your argument, yet, you haven't even begun to tell us what Kojima is ripping off except for a few trivial elements. The most important part is his ability to tell HIS story, and, regardless of similarities to characters or events is still entirely original. Oh, and its entirely plausible to find similarities in EVERYTHING. Saying that Snake is very similar to Pliskin is a good start, but still no winner, as for the most part, they ARE different 'characters'. They may sound the same, look the same and have the same name, but as characters, they are different, with different motivations and amibitions. Talking about cloaking, torture, crawling through ventilation and driving jeeps is not a 'similarity', as those elements are just to broad and generic to be labeled as 'unique' experiences.

Anyway, what story has he ripped off? Sergio 'remade' Yojimbo, and that was clear. I don't know of a story or movie or book that Kojima ripped off. Again, allowing you the opportunity at the moment, to have your 'ripped off elements', beyond that, where's the big one? Where's the one that makes us go "f&%k, Kojima is just retelling <blank>!"

If you're compelled to deride me or mag further, or just reiterate what you wrote, don't bother. Otherwise, lets go a little further here to truly disseminate what it is about Kojima that bothers you, so we can all have a bigger picture, but remember, dont repeat what you already wrote. Give me something juicy to chew on. If you can't offer one complete movie or story that he's ripped off, at least give me one scene, play by play, from the movie or movies you think he's completely stolen and injected into MGS. I'll even bring my friend in on this and see if he sees what you see, as he's a fiction writer and film scholar. I'm assuming you are as well, correct? What is your "background" with regards to film?



Cheers

[mag]

Good Lord, Villain! I think that's the longest I've ever seen it take for somebody to say absolutely nothing. Pretty much what your last post boils down to is, "I'm smart, and you're not!" That's still not a rebuttal. That's a childish schoolyard taunt. An incredibly verbose one, but a taunt nonetheless. And frankly, you're making a lot of unfounded assumptions about my knowledge of the subject. But hey, it's okay if you want to make yourself look like even more of an ass. That just makes it more entertaining for me. Especially having read what you've written on these forums about your "vast knowledge of film." Take my word for it. You don't know nearly as much as you like to think you do. You're a serious amateur at best. A fanboy at worst.

But all of this still doesn't do anything prove your original claim. So you can either stop the childish insults and actually back up your statements, or we don't have anything else to discuss.

mag

[EvoG]

Originally Posted by SamNMax

Oh Snap

No I mean it, I take no offense by your posts (I'm not retracting my statment on fascism) but because of your jocularity(not necessarily of the knee-slapping sort ) I guess I dont really mind it.


Cheers

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by mag

Good Lord, Villain! I think that's the longest I've ever seen it take for somebody to say absolutely nothing. Pretty much what your last post boils down to is, "I'm smart, and you're not!" That's still not a rebuttal. That's a childish schoolyard taunt. An incredibly verbose one, but a taunt nonetheless. And frankly, you're making a lot of unfounded assumptions about my knowledge of the subject. But hey, it's okay if you want to make yourself look like even more of an ass. That just makes it more entertaining for me. Especially having read what you've written on these forums about your "vast knowledge of film." Take my word for it. You don't know nearly as much as you like to think you do. You're a serious amateur at best. A fanboy at worst.

But all of this still doesn't do anything prove your original claim. So you can either stop the childish insults and actually back up your statements, or we don't have anything else to discuss.

mag

In other words, you understand that you got your ass kicked. Anytime bro. I look forward to our next discussion. I think that, perhaps, on another subject you might actually be a decent opponent. Good luck.

SamNMax, I thought mag never gave up? To quote Die Hard like Kojima would : "The guy just got butt f***ed on national TV." Well, maybe not national TV, but I still didn't expect him to tuck his tail between his legs and run away like this on a public forum.

[CrimsonBlue]

I have NO idea how you interpreted mags post as giving up. He challenged you to actually back up your statements, and seeing as you didn't do that, or don't want to, it's you who lose.

Just my observation.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

I have NO idea how you interpreted mags post as giving up. He challenged you to actually back up your statements, and seeing as you didn't do that, or don't want to, it's you who lose.

Just my observation.

Well, of course. I mean, you and EvoG are firmly on his side. You want him to "win". You aren't unbiased or objective judges, and that's fine and understandable. Human nature, really. You won't be able to see reason on this matter, but read my post. I asked him to back up his points as well. He challenges the definition of a word when the definition isn't suitable for him. He avoids my questions. Please notice that he backs nothing up. He claims I said "nothing" in my post, but that's because he doesn't want to rebut what I said. Why? Because he can't. This is all completely obvious.

He claims I'm a "serious amateur at best" when it comes to my knowledge of film. Where's his proof of that claim? Oh wait, I see it...he said: "Take my word for it." I'm sure he's a bit wounded from the fact that I see how little he knows on this subject, and I've called him out. I've given him ample opportunity to prove me wrong, but he won't defend himself. Because...he...can't. Now that's fine if you and EvoG want to back him up, like I said that's to be expected. It's good to be loyal to those who share your view. But the truth is, he just got hammered and he's giving up.

[CrimsonBlue]

Now you're just playing elitist. I don't agree with everything he said, but I don't agree with much of what you said either. You seem to think references and inspiration from movies are a negative thing that deprives the gamedesigner of originality, but it doesn't. Everything that's done today is based on something elses work in some way or the other. I can't imagine you enjoying many movies either, considering everything's been done before - because that's what you're saying.

There's a difference between ripping from, references to or using a similar element. I can tell that you don't like to lose anymore than mag does, and none of you will admit loss, because frankly, none of you have lost in your own eyes. Even the fact that 99% of the industry acknowledge the talent of Hideo Kojima doesn't convice you. And regarding him accusing you of lack of knowledge goes both ways. You've already assumed many times that he doesn't know what he's talking about, thus making you just as bad as him. There's not much to discuss really... Hideo Kojima is a highly acclaimed gamedesigner. You don't like his games that much, that's fine, but there's no denying the truth. Hideo Kojima is a very talented and very original game designer. And he makes his games fun to play. That's what a great gamedesigner does. He makes things work in a game.

Anyway, in my eyes you've already lost big time. Because having a defence like "sure, you WANT him to win" is an excuse only 9 year olds find acceptable. Give me something to chew on, maybe you can convice me that you're right. But I doubt it.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

Anyway, in my eyes you've already lost big time.

Like I said, it's expected. Loyalty to the end. Actually, I believe you want to be objective, but I can't just take your word for it. You've already established what side you are on. In politics, for instance, how often do you see Republicans or Democrats on the losing side of a debate ADMIT their candidate lost? Almost never. Those people spin and spin and spin trying to turn a disaster into some kind of success. I have nothing against you personally Crimson, or EvoG (or mag for that matter). And I believe both of you think you are being objective. It's just hard for me to believe you truly are. Surely you understand that.

[mag]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

Like I said, it's expected. Loyalty to the end. Actually, I believe you want to be objective, but I can't just take your word for it. You've already established what side you are on.

Thank you, Villian, for that perfect example of an ad hominem circumstantial. By saying, "Well, you would say that because you're on his side," you can actually make it seem as though you've said something relevent, when in fact all you've done is dodge the issue yet again. Bravo.

As for the rest, I've challenged you to back up your statements. You've once again proven that you can't. But if you want to continue entertaining us with how childish you can act, be my guest. It's absolutely hilarious.

Here. Have a kitten.



mag

[CrimsonBlue]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

Like I said, it's expected. Loyalty to the end. Actually, I believe you want to be objective, but I can't just take your word for it. You've already established what side you are on. In politics, for instance, how often do you see Republicans or Democrats on the losing side of a debate ADMIT their candidate lost? Almost never. Those people spin and spin and spin trying to turn a disaster into some kind of success. I have nothing against you personally Crimson, or EvoG (or mag for that matter). And I believe both of you think you are being objective. It's just hard for me to believe you truly are. Surely you understand that.

You're forgetting that I'm not a politician, nor do I live in america where you have two parties fighting eachother in their giant playhouse. And I have no problem with admitting defeat if I actually believe I have been beaten. I've done so many times. I'm also not trying to be objective, don't know where you got that idea. After all, I have my own views on things, just like you and mag have. In this discussion, I happen to agree the most with mag, but not in everything. I agree for instance with you, on MGS3s villains being more fantatic that science fiction. But I do not agree with your views on Hideo Kojima.

And I truly hope you don't consider your own views any more objective than anyone elses. Because they aren't. And no, you haven't won any argument. When you're the only one who thinks you've won an argument, you can only be the loser. You're the only one so far who thinks you've won the argument, and you're telling yourself you have. You're the only one who believes it. That should at least ring a bell, if anything.