[Jeysie]

Speaking as another person who's more or less given up on most of Chit-Chat because it's become a lot of silliness and private conversations...

I don't see what the indignation is about. Yes, silliness, in-jokes, private conversations, and flirtaciousness have their place... and that place is generally in IRC, PMs, e-mail, or IMs. We have a perfectly good IRC channel that could use some love and would be a great place to hang out and chat with your AG friends...

That's not to say jokes and silliness are never appropriate... but lots of threads in which a couple people are essentally chatting with each other and the original topic has been lost gets kind of off-putting after a while if you're not in "the group".

Peace & Luv, Liz

[The Impostor]

Originally Posted by AFGCAAP

Impostor: so you perhaps even agree with the gist of what was said, but feel offended by the tone. We got that the first time. And make no mistake - it's certainly as valuable opinion as any, but I feel that for the rest of your post you keep forgetting that it's your impression, rather than some kind of objective truth, that the tone of the message was aggressive or patronizing or accusative or what have you. Despite the fact that the majority of people who felt like posting here, thought the contrary.

Objective truth is irrelevant. For the 80th time, the fact that this induced apologies from even one person proves that there was a problem with the tone. How can you defend making bulldog, one of the loveliest and nicest people here, say, "I'm very sorry."? (By the way, I apologise for using you here, bulldog. I'm sure you'd say it wasn't anything to do with the tone of this thread, but I disagree. Forgive me for exploiting you.) No one should feel sorry, and you clearly didn't want them to feel sorry. Even if nothing else I say gets through, you should at the least admit that it could have been handled better. I found the simple fact that it provoked apologies inexcusable, no matter what the apologisers say. Why on earth would anyone apologise if they didn't feel like they had wronged in some way?

Also, I'm not saying I agree with the gist. I understand and can appreciate the fact that you're trying to improve the community, but I disagree with the both the way you went about it and many of the steps you're trying to implement to achieve it.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

There is a sticky thread in Hints and Tips with a big fat "READ THIS" in the title, which most users seem to ignore.

Exactly. Why not have a less-formal, more-inviting one on the main page? When I joined this forum, I never even thought about clicking hints and tips or introducing myself or anything. If there was a sticky thread at the top for new users to post in, I would have posted in it. Even if it was only for new users to introduce themselves, I think it would help.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

I think it's safe to say a Chit Chat one would end up the same way.

Where's the harm in trying? It's likely that it won't work, and I'm willing to swallow the blame, but I don't see the problem in not doing it. Or something like it, in the least. You tell me.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

And everyone is always encouraged to post/PM any forum-related feedback or queries they might have.

Speaking only from my experience, I never felt that. I never felt discouraged, but I don't remember anything in the way of encouragement.

Now, I feel utterly exhausted after posting all this (as I'm sure those who read it will, too), so off I go.

[Jackal]

This has become tiresome. Why is the tone of the message being dragged out as an issue? Who really cares? I said what I wanted to say the way I wanted to say it, and if there are some mildly abrasive expressions in there, then to put it bluntly, deal with it. I went out of my way to make sure it was respectful of the individuals involved, while still being fairly firm on the problems on a larger scale. If you insist on taking the matter personally, that's your choice. And your misplaced indignation on behalf of other people who feel none themselves suggests you're actually looking for ways to be offended.

Frankly, Impostor, the more you post here, the less it seems you've understood the point at all. All I see is you digging in on a few points you've wrongly decided are black-and-white absolutes and run them into the ground. All we're looking for is balance, and I indentified the areas that have created the imbalance. If you insist on ignoring or twisting the actual message that most other people seem to get quite clearly, then I'm certainly not going to keep repeating it.

I will just clarify that this post is not FOR newcomers. It's for the established members of the community who have been most active in their posting, and who shape the dominant tone and direction of this forum. I don't recall saying it was going to remain stickied, so that's just you making more unwarranted assumptions.

And I certainly never said anything about this being for the benefit of newcomers. In fact, I specifically stated that the concern is people falling AWAY from Chit Chat because of its current direction - a concern that has been anecdotally supported in this very thread.

You've yet to actually highlight a single thing that hasn't already been either pre-emptively or subsequently addressed quite thoroughly. You may not mind being a broken record, but I hate repeating myself pointlessly.

[The Impostor]

Originally Posted by Jackal

You've yet to actually highlight a single thing that hasn't already been either pre-emptively or subsequently addressed quite thoroughly.

I mean no offence by this, and I'm aware that it may come across as rude and spiteful and puerile and needlessly mean and will discredit my arguments, but you're an idiot. There. I've pre-empted and addressed your response. You're not allowed to argue.

Originally Posted by Jackal

And your misplaced indignation on behalf of other people who feel none themselves suggests you're actually looking for ways to be offended.

I never said they felt indignation. I'm indignant because your post prompted more than one person to apologise. The nature of their apology and their feelings about your post are almost irrelevant. You've made people feel like they have reason to apologise, no matter what that reason is. And no one here, as you should know, has any reason to apologise. None of the things you outlined were ever done maliciously or consciously in a bid to 'wreck' the forum, and none of them by themselves should make anyone feel guilty. You know all this, and tried to address it, but clearly it didn't come across. People did apologise.

As far as I know (and you're willing to correct me on this), there hasn't really been any warning leading up to this. You could have said, "Guys, cut down a bit on the flirting" from time to time, or "Hey, I think we're a bit off-topic" or whatever, but that didn't happen. I flirted and made crude jokes, but I never got any indication that it was frowned upon — no one said anything to me. And if someone told someone else about it, it never reached me. Maybe this is a cumulative response to all those complaints, but it seems to me like it would have been wiser to actively (but good-naturedly) moderate against all the things you thought were going against the community or whatever, and then, if that failed, posting something like this.

Originally Posted by Jackal

Who really cares? I said what I wanted to say the way I wanted to say it, and if there are some mildly abrasive expressions in there, then to put it bluntly, deal with it.

So you're not sorry for making people feel bad about what they had posted?

As for the rest of it, I haven't the energy anymore. I feel rather like you're attacking the way I'm arguing rather than the points I'm bringing up, but I'm sure you can vice the versa with me. Whatever. At this point, if I don't simply just flat-out leave, I'm certainly not going to be posting very much — or not post at all for a while. Everything feels compromised. I wouldn't feel comfortable posting the sort of things I usually post — the sorts of things I enjoy posting — simply because clearly, you're trying to discourage them (no matter how partially or lightly you discourage them), so there's not much point in my hanging around — especially not now that I've obviously annoyed the hell out of all the moderators. But hey, that's my problem. I just hope that if I return a few months down the track or something, everything's sorted itself out.

I'm not just arguing for the hell of it, by the way. I have tried to offer genuine help, but my idea wasn't taken very seriously. Perhaps it doesn't deserve to be taken seriously, but I still think something along those lines is the right way to go. Speaking of the right way to go...

[samIamsad]

Personally, I didn't notice any significant changes in these quirky parts of the forums since I joined, but that could be just me. Me, who doesn't bother with each and every thread and post coming his way anyway. Even if I did, I could never understand for the life of me how someone could take issues with anything posted in here. It's totally harmless from my experience, not all that derailed, safe for some silly threads that have always been a part of this, and most of all: it's the internet, home of plenty silly things, and all that. I'm sure you know what I mean. Yes, you do.

It took some weeks after I joined for me to start participating in the chit chat section. A totally nonsensical thread, as far as I can remember, which quickly became some kind of chat room in disguise, but hey, it's chit chat, it's the internet, the sky is blue today (not really), the bees are humming (in November!?) .. so yeah.

PS: That doesn't mean a place like this wouldn't need some guidelines, personally I just don't see what was really happening, but I'm just a lazy reader/poster, so I guess everything's alright.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by The Impostor

Objective truth is irrelevant. For the 80th time, the fact that this induced apologies from even one person proves that there was a problem with the tone.

Don't you see the irony in putting these two sentences right next to each other?

How can you defend making bulldog, one of the loveliest and nicest people here, say, "I'm very sorry."? (By the way, I apologise for using you here, bulldog. I'm sure you'd say it wasn't anything to do with the tone of this thread, but I disagree. Forgive me for exploiting you.) No one should feel sorry, and you clearly didn't want them to feel sorry. Even if nothing else I say gets through, you should at the least admit that it could have been handled better. I found the simple fact that it provoked apologies inexcusable, no matter what the apologisers say. Why on earth would anyone apologise if they didn't feel like they had wronged in some way?

For the last time:

1. Being sorry doesn't mean admitting guilt in the sense of having bad intentions ("I'm sorry I stepped on your toe")
2. It doesn't even imply that the apologizing person has done something inherently wrong. ("I'm sorry I had to be one to tell you that your husband's cheating on you.")
3. Even if you feel like arguing that neither 1. nor 2. apply here, nobody was forced to apologize. In fact, you said yourself that we "clearly" didn't want people to, so if you think the excessive apologies steer the thread in a wrong direction why not take this issue with bulldog (or whoever else did say they're sorry) rather than blame the original Jackal's post?

Also, I'm not saying I agree with the gist. I understand and can appreciate the fact that you're trying to improve the community, but I disagree with the both the way you went about it and many of the steps you're trying to implement to achieve it.

What steps? As far as I know, none has been taken beyond posting these guidelines, which hopefully will serve as a good enough eye-opener.

Exactly. Why not have a less-formal, more-inviting one on the main page? When I joined this forum, I never even thought about clicking hints and tips

I meant the thread in Hints and Tips which is about posting in Hints and Tips. New users don't follow its guidelines not because it's too formal, but because most don't open it at all.

or introducing myself or anything. If there was a sticky thread at the top for new users to post in, I would have posted in it. Even if it was only for new users to introduce themselves, I think it would help.

Well, many newbies aren't intimidated by the lack of thread like this and start the new "Hello, I'm such-and-such" threads themselves (which generates quite a lot of welcoming responses). And as any regular can tell you, history shows that most of people who do so disappear shortly thereafter. For what reason, I don't know. But I think that tendency makes the suggestion that a separate "Introduce yourself" thread would make the community feel more inclusive, debatable.

Speaking only from my experience, I never felt that. I never felt discouraged, but I don't remember anything in the way of encouragement.

So now you know.

Originally Posted by The Impostor

I mean no offence by this, and I'm aware that it may come across as rude and spiteful and puerile and needlessly mean and will discredit my arguments, but you're an idiot. There. I've pre-empted and addressed your response. You're not allowed to argue.

The irony. I know you probably think that you parodied something that Jack said, but to me it seems it's actually you who keep dismissing everyone else's opinions as though they were idiots:

"I'm sure you'd say it wasn't anything to do with the tone of this thread, but I disagree."
"I found the simple fact that it provoked apologies inexcusable, no matter what the apologisers say."
"If you say you weren't meant to be accusative, you could have fooled me. "

Not to mention your conversation with Jelena, who had to say twice that she doesn't appreciate you interpreting how she "really" feels before you dropped it.

I never said they felt indignation.

True. But you're going out of your way to prove that they should, as seen above.

As far as I know (and you're willing to correct me on this), there hasn't really been any warning leading up to this. You could have said, "Guys, cut down a bit on the flirting" from time to time, or "Hey, I think we're a bit off-topic" or whatever, but that didn't happen. I flirted and made crude jokes, but I never got any indication that it was frowned upon — no one said anything to me. And if someone told someone else about it, it never reached me. Maybe this is a cumulative response to all those complaints, but it seems to me like it would have been wiser to actively (but good-naturedly) moderate against all the things you thought were going against the community or whatever, and then, if that failed, posting something like this.

Read the opening post again. The problem was not about any isolated incident, but how commonplace they had become. What you describe would require unfairly singling out some people, who would feel criticised for what others get away with. That's why it was posted as an open appeal, to the whole community.

At this point, if I don't simply just flat-out leave, I'm certainly not going to be posting very much — or not post at all for a while. Everything feels compromised. I wouldn't feel comfortable posting the sort of things I usually post — the sorts of things I enjoy posting — simply because clearly, you're trying to discourage them (no matter how partially or lightly you discourage them), so there's not much point in my hanging around — especially not now that I've obviously annoyed the hell out of all the moderators. But hey, that's my problem. I just hope that if I return a few months down the track or something, everything's sorted itself out.

Indeed, it is your problem. As have been said many times, nothing of the sort is discouraged, we only request a certain dose of self-awareness in doing so. If you believe you can't possibly cope with that request, then yes, it does seem reasonable to leave. (Frankly, I believe it would require much less self-awareness than you are displaying in analyzing and explaining your indignation in this thread, but the choice is obviously yours.)

I'm not just arguing for the hell of it, by the way. I have tried to offer genuine help, but my idea wasn't taken very seriously. Perhaps it doesn't deserve to be taken seriously, but I still think something along those lines is the right way to go.

Just because I (and only I, it was not an official staff's stance or anything) didn't like the idea you proposed, doesn't mean it weren't treated seriously. And, heck, I even said that it could be worthy partially incorporating the things you speak of into the FAQ (which does display on the top of the forums for the new, ie. unregistered, users, by the way), but let this not stop you from playing the "being ignored" card.

[Jatsie]

The problem with this situation right here, is that people actually have everything Backwards.
The whole there are too many silly threads / silly activities “problem” is not the cause of there supposedly being no worthwhile / meaningful threads around, in fact it’s a symptom of it.
There were threads with topics of discussion, and they were discussed, and the threads were retired. As gradually there was less and less left to be said, people turned to other avenues to satisfy their desires to post and interact with their forum friends, in the form of the so called “silly threads”, and so these threads steadily grew in popularity.

If the current activity is so objectionable, people who want change they need to look at the root cause, and actually offer a solution. It is utterly futile to just highlight a symptom, and say “We don’t like what you’re doing so stop and solve it yourselves.” All that will accomplish (if anything) is to just stop people from posting anything at all (which appears already to be taking effect) and send the forum further into insipidity.


I like this board, it is populated by nice intelligent people, who I like and respect, and who (for the most part) I would like to think feel the same way about me. I come here for fun and some light-hearted intercourse with people I would consider friends.
When I first joined over a year ago it was clear that people knew each other well, and I didn’t always know what they were talking about. I did a lot of reading to start with, and only posted occasionally, and by the time I became a regular poster I felt I knew enough about the people around me that I was part of the group. Not once did anyone make me feel unwelcome. I hardly see this alleged cliquishness as the problem it’s being made out to be, on the contrary. We have plenty of examples of new people who recently have come here and stuck around.


This thread disgusts me, with whiny comments like “Well I was in one thread, and a certain person said something, and I didn’t like it.” For heavens sake, if something has affronted you so much that you feel the need to raise the issue in the first place, at least have the guts to directly indicate exactly what you’re talking about, instead of all this pussyfooting around with veiled language, like you’re suddenly afraid to step on someone’s toes, it’s pathetic!

[Relek]

This argument is now outdated, people are now creating interesting threads and some of the more silly threads are being locked.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by Jat316sob

This thread disgusts me, with whiny comments like “Well I was in one thread, and a certain person said something, and I didn’t like it.” For heavens sake, if something has affronted you so much that you feel the need to raise the issue in the first place, at least have the guts to directly indicate exactly what you’re talking about, instead of all this pussyfooting around with veiled language, like you’re suddenly afraid to step on someone’s toes, it’s pathetic!

Stop trolling.

The problem with this situation right here, is that people actually have everything Backwards.
The whole there are too many silly threads / silly activities “problem” is not the cause of there supposedly being no worthwhile / meaningful threads around, in fact it’s a symptom of it.

Nobody argues either one is the direct cause of another - they were in fact both presented as parts of a bigger problem.

If the current activity is so objectionable, people who want change they need to look at the root cause, and actually offer a solution. It is utterly futile to just highlight a symptom, and say “We don’t like what you’re doing so stop and solve it yourselves.” All that will accomplish (if anything) is to just stop people from posting anything at all (which appears already to be taking effect) and send the forum further into insipidity.

Hey, if you repeat that enough times, maybe it will become true?

When I first joined over a year ago it was clear that people knew each other well, and I didn’t always know what they were talking about. I did a lot of reading to start with, and only posted occasionally, and by the time I became a regular poster I felt I knew enough about the people around me that I was part of the group. Not once did anyone make me feel unwelcome.

So wait, is there a "problem" at all? If there was no shift in the forums, why did you devote the beginning of your post to explaining how did that change come about? If there was, then how does it matter what were the forums like back when you were joining, a year ago?

I hardly see this alleged cliquishness as the problem it’s being made out to be, on the contrary. We have plenty of examples of new people who recently have come here and stuck around.

Aside from the fact that I disagree (unless you stretch definition of "plenty" and "recently" beyond reason), it must be stressed, again, that it's not (mainly) about the new people.

Originally Posted by Relek

This argument is now outdated, people are now creating interesting threads and some of the more silly threads are being locked.

No, this argument was never valid to begin with. And please don't make it sound like some sort of Blitzkrieg. If some threads were locked, that's because they weren't going anywhere, not as a part of some preplanned campaign.

[Panthera]

On an almost completely unrelated issue, you should probably think about changing this threads name, because it might appear to new ppl. that they must read the whole thread to get the guidelines.. Maybe Chit Chat guidelines (long, but please read) and discussion...

I know this has nothing to do with the discussion, and I've chosen, on purpose, not to express my feelings about this.. Mostly because I still haven't made up my mind about this, and because I always feel a bit outside (this is nobody's fault but myself! I'm not blaming anybody..) the community.

I think I'm one of the few ppl. who actually enjoyed coming to the chit chat forum everyday after we got all the silly threads, but I also missed some of the more "interesting" (in search for a better word) threads we lost..

[Jackal]

Your post is just fine, Panthera. This thread certainly isn't limited to the same repetitive rants. I may change the thread title when I unsticky it, but I don't really see it as a problem right now. I think it's pretty obvious which parts have value and which don't if anyone feels inclined to read through. But while it's stickied, I want something general enough to draw attention to it.

Originally Posted by Relek

This argument is now outdated, people are now creating interesting threads and some of the more silly threads are being locked.

Apart from the validity of the protests in the first place, you're quite right that others have already taken the first easy steps needed to move forward. Very nice to see. And I have full confidence that people will soon find the comfort zone in posting freely again, only this time with an understanding that at some point there is such a thing as too much. It's a pretty simple concept, after all.

As for the Impostor and Jat316sob, bitching because we put the issues to the community itself to foster self-moderation is simply laughable. I really don't care if you wouldn't have done it that way. It's done. Arguing the point is totally redundant, regardless of what anyone thinks of it. And even if it weren't, the fact that no one BUT you seems to take issue with it doesn't make your argument very compelling. But blaming the delivery is just misdirection anyway. No matter how you buffer it with so-called advice for handling this situation better, you've both made it abundantly clear that you're really just lashing out at the decision to moderate in these areas at all. But we are, and for good reason, whether you're unwilling to acknowledge it or not (despite people saying so directly to you). So you have a choice to make. As I said, I'd be shocked to discover anyone is incapable of even the marginal amount of consideration for others we're asking for here. But I guess it's possible. Either way, you've made your positions clear and there's no need to repeat them again. If you actually have something new to say, fine, but not the same things said differently just to drag this out. The situation is what it is, and the rest of us are moving forward. Constructive suggestions towards that end are of course welcome.

[The Impostor]

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

No, this argument was never valid to begin with.

I hardly think that's a wise comment. Even regardless of the points made, opposing views help strengthen and focus the forum, something which may not happen if every decision was swallowed hook, line and sinker, with no debate. If you think this argument isn't valid (correct me), I find that a very distressing thing for a moderator to think.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

1. Being sorry doesn't mean admitting guilt in the sense of having bad intentions ("I'm sorry I stepped on you toe")

Again, irrelevant. Example:
PA: "Hi, I live across the road and I've come to tell you that I hate the way you've painted your house. I know you didn't mean anything by it, but it ruins the whole street and it just looks god damned horrible. It makes me ashamed to be the same species as you — no offence. I cried yesterday just looking at how horrible it was. You've ruined the community."
PB: "Oh, I'm... I'm really sorry. I didn't mean to do that... I'm sorry" *sobs*

The first person's demands are unreasonable and the way he handled it was insensitive, even though the apologiser had no bad intentions and he knew it.

Originally Posted by AFGCAAP

2. It doesn't even imply that the apologizing person has done something inherently wrong. ("I'm sorry I had to be one to tell you that your husband's cheating on you.")

That example is entirely inappropriate in this case. It's not necessarily the apology itself, but the context of the apology.

Originally Posted by AFGCAAP

3. Even if you feel like arguing that neither 1. nor 2. apply here,

I do and did, and they don't.

Originally Posted by AFGCAAP

nobody was forced to apologize.

Again, that's not the point. If I insulted someone so much that he decided to kill himself, I didn't force him to kill himself. So, what? Do I have no responsibility for the ramifications of my actions? Hey, I didn't tell him to kill himself. If he couldn't deal with it, that's his problem.

Originally Posted by AFGCAAP

Read the opening post again. The problem was not about any isolated incident, but how commonplace they had become. What you describe would require unfairly singling out some people, who would feel criticised for what other get away with. That's why it was posted as an open appeal, to the whole community.

No, I know that. But if you did it lightly — i.e. occasionally just steered a thread back on topic, given out a few gentle warnings here and there — this might not have been a problem. You have to ask yourself how it became so commonplace. If people saw you tell someone off for doing something, they might not do it themselves. But if they have no reason to think they're not respecting the wider community, they will have no reason to stop. It's like simply sitting back and waiting for enough people to unknowingly incriminate themselves before stepping in and telling them it's wrong.

Originally Posted by AFGCAAP

What you describe would require unfairly singling out some people, who would feel criticised for what other get away with.

So instead of unfairly singling out some people, you're unfairly singling out everyone? And, really, I don't see the problem in occasionally stepping in and going, "OK, guys, can we get back on topic?" or something. It's hardly lambasting them. If you treated it good-naturedly and lightly whenever you thought it got out of hand, no one's going to be particularly incensed. Now, I'll admit there were incidents where this did happen. If you'll remember, I created the Rotting Flesh thread, and was promptly told off for it. I never made a wilfully pointless thread again. The system works! If you had done that sort of thing more in the areas you thought problematic, maybe we wouldn't need these guidelines.

Originally Posted by AFGCAAP

Just because I (and only I, it was not an official staff's stance or anything) didn't like the idea you proposed, doesn't mean it weren't treated seriously.

I was merely referring to the fact that you somehow thought it could have been a joke. Aside from that, I'll admit you did address it fairly. Apologies for coming across that way.

And I told myself I'd stop arguing here.

To sum: For a thread addressing a cumulative problem, rather than individual incidents, I think it was handled unfairly — hence the apologies — particular since there seemed to be little indication that the outlined problems were problems — or even issues. And I don't think bitterly referring to "navel-gazing" and "juvenile" humour was a very helpful way of addressing the issue, especially since you insist that this is only a problem on the whole. You took aim at things that I and other people have found "fun" in such a way that anyone would think twice about ever doing it again, as opposed to thinking about doing it in moderation.

And don't worry: I still love you, AFGCAAP. And maybe you, too, Jackal. Maybe.

[The Impostor]

Heck, if anything "solves" this "problem", it will be the Ersatz Chatz thread (wink).

[Squinky]

AFGCAPP, huh? Does that mean he's no longer neutral?

[akane_t]

Er, Impostor, you do realize that we, you , others, and I, are just guests here, right? We do not have the right to come here and say whatever we want to say in any way we want to say it in. The people who run this place are granting us the privilege to come here and use the resources. As such, why do you find it so objectionable that the hosts wish to have the guests utilize the resources in a way that benefits the most number of guests? Really, all Jackal has done is that, asking people to be respectful and considerate of other people so that the more people can benefit from the forums instead of the select few.

You keep going on and on about the "incorrect" way that Jackal approached this. Your whole argument is getting very tiresome to tell you the truth. You are not even saying that what Jackal requested is out of the line. You even used someone like Bulldog to make your point. Bulldog didn't have to apologize but she did anyway. Do you know what that makes her? A nice person. Somebody who's willing to think about the consequences of her own actions on other people. Somebody who's willing to change her behavior to benefit others. Even if Jackal hadn't posted the Guideline message and notified Bulldog in the way that you say is acceptable, I bet you million to one that she would have apologized anyway and promised to follow his request. Do you know why? Because she's a nice person. So I suggest you stop using the argument that the fact that Jackal "forced" people to apologize so what he did was acceptable. That's a complete BS. I certainly do not see it that way and I bet Bulldog doesn't either.

A lot of people including myself feel that Jackal made a very reasonable request, one that was in sore need. Why don't you move on and become a productive member of the forums? I'd love to see that happen as you seem very intelligent and creative.

[SCRUGAtes13]

Originally Posted by akane_t

Er, Impostor, you do realize that we, you , others, and I, are just guests here, right? We do not have the right to come here and say whatever we want to say in any way we want to say it in. The people who run this place are granting us the privilege to come here and use the resources.

i'm sorry, but a discussion about ANYTHING would require at least two guests. the guests are what make a forum and without these guests this place is nothing but a good idea. so i disagree with the proclaimed fact that we should be privileged to be here, that's nonsense and should not be considered in this argument.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by The Impostor

I hardly think that's a wise comment. Even regardless of the points made, opposing views help strengthen and focus the forum, something which may not happen if every decision was swallowed hook, line and sinker, with no debate. If you think this argument isn't valid (correct me), I find that a very distressing thing for a moderator to think.

Actually, I must thank you for bringing this to my attention. I made a mistake. I immediately assumed Relek was talking about the argument used in the post above his, ie. that people already seem to have stopped posting anything, and this was what I referred to as invalid. It never occured to me until I read Jackal's and your posts that "the argument" was more likely to mean the whole discussion in this context. My bad.

No, I know that. But if you did it lightly — i.e. occasionally just steered a thread back on topic, given out a few gentle warnings here and there — this might not have been a problem. You have to ask yourself how it became so commonplace. <snip> If you had done that sort of thing more in the areas you thought problematic, maybe we wouldn't need these guidelines.

Maybe. No one claims otherwise. Maybe the problem could have been observed and "thwarted" earlier, by us. What's done is done, though, and this is irrelevant - unless we speak in terms of blame (which I won't do and which was not the point of this thread, etc.). The decision how to deal with the current state of affairs had to be made now. (But yes, anyone who thought that this is, in any way, an "us/good vs. them/evil" situation here was, of course, wrong.)

I was merely referring to the fact that you somehow thought it could have been a joke. Aside from that, I'll admit you did address it fairly. Apologies for coming across that way.

Well, I suspected it'd been a joke because the whole idea didn't seem to fit your idea of how Chit Chat should be run. Combined with your manner of never sounding totally serious nor completely facetious, it was easy to make such assumption.

About your other points (the way the things were handled, etc.), they are understood. I disagree, and consider the analogies you're making to be over the top, but I understand your point. I don't think much more can be done about it, can it? (And as long as the majority didn't seem to share your concerns, I think it also doesn't need to.)

And don't worry: I still love you, AFGCAAP.

Who?

Oh, me. Good, it'll balance my karma a bit.

[The Impostor]

Originally Posted by akane_t

Really, all Jackal has done is that, asking people to be respectful and considerate of other people so that the more people can benefit from the forums instead of the select few.

I understand that. I just don't think he was very respectful in doing so.

Originally Posted by akane_t

You are not even saying that what Jackal requested is out of the line.

I am, but how he said it contributed to it being out of line. I think his motives true (one presumes), his means mean, and his solution unjust. And I expressed my opinion about it.

That's a complete BS. I certainly do not see it that way and I bet Bulldog doesn't either.

OK, here it is: for a thread apparently not intended to impart blame or come across as accusative, it came across as both. Maybe only to me, but the fact that people apologised seems to back this up. I disagree that anyone should take responsibility for their actions in regards to what this thread is denouncing because I personally don't think those actions were negligible to the community or in any way contributing to the forum's downfall. The argument seems to be that cumulatively they pose a problem, not individually, yet individuals are apologising for contributing to it. That was the biggest problem I had. (I will, however, apologise for using bulldog and anyone else who apologised in my argument, as I used them individually. I simply read this thread, found it needlessly accusative, and saw people apologising. It was hard to overlook that.) I guess we'll never know if the same people would have still apologised if this thread was less bitter in its tone, so we can only speculate. I personally believe we wouldn't have gotten as many, or at least as many on the same level, if it was handled differently. Heck, if I didn't feel indignant about it, I probably would have apologised. But the truth of the matter is, I simply thought this was railing against things nobody should feel guilty for doing (and it came across as though they should feel somewhat guilty, even in the smallest degree), and I would have argued even if nobody apologised. There are better ways to address the issue. That is my opinion.

I agree this is tiresome. I didn't want to harp on about this particular aspect, but this is the part of my argument that has been most dwelt upon, and I continue to dwell upon it in response. Just read my first post about this issue. Everything is there. The most important thing is that there has been debate over this issue. That can only help in the long run.

In my opinion, if you're going to impose guidelines on things that are only a problem cumulatively, you should be very careful about how you handle it.

Originally Posted by akane_t

Why don't you move on and become a productive member of the forums?

Actually, this is the most productive thing I've ever done on the forum.

Originally Posted by akane_t

I'd love to see that happen as you seem very intelligent and creative.

In other words, I'm a successful impostor! (Thanks.)

Jesus Christ. At this point, I've written what could be combined into an enormously tedious and repetitive essay, and I hope I resist the urge to breathe another word about it (no doubt every one of you are hoping that too). So: if you really want to prevent any more of this crap, don't respond!

[Giligan]

Behold, the really, really long post thread!

[Spiwak]

I think you're all making too big a deal out of these guidelines. Jackal didn't post them as some sort of ultimatum written in blood that we're all gonna pay if we don't shape up. The mods are simply asking for us to stop and think before we post. The tone of the post was not in any way condescending or requiring of an apology. The fact that people did means nothing, if they so decided to apologize when they thought about their posts in light of these new guidelines. The apologies were unnecessary. Perhaps Jackal could have eased it up if he hadn't said that the guidelines came about as a result of how the chit-chat forum was progressing recently (thereby making everyone consider how they might have contributed), but it was probably necessary to do so simply to make us consider how we post and consider how people might view said posting habits. It's really not worth all this fuss, especially considering that the forum's probably not going to change too drastically if but gradually.