[Relek]

Originally Posted by The Impostor

I think it was mildly more constructive than, "It's time we stop masturbating over eachothers so called "wit"."

Well that alone wasn't very constructive, it was merely complimenting the other points I submitted

[UPtimist]

Originally Posted by Wormsie

I apologise for starting the three-word story. I had no idea it would last so long...

This is also a brilliant opportunity to mention that you can fullfill your chitti-chatty needs on IRC, such as #adventuregamers at irc.adventuregamers.com (unofficial channel).

Like there would be anyone there speaking when I log in... And then there's the case of an IRC not working...

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by The Impostor

...literally everything I've done as The Impostor has broken these guidelines.

Not at all. I think the "guess the identity" thread was perfectly valid. Dragged on too long, but the concept was fun and I'll say it again: there is room in this forum for fun and playful threads!

But here's the thing (and why no one should take this personally): if it was just ONE person doing it, there wouldn't be a problem. But when a whole page of Chit Chat threads is littered with similar threads because many are doing the same thing at the same time, and the other threads are internally filled with the same conversations by the same people, then the forum becomes unbalanced and then there's a problem.

And the issues listed should not be isolated, either. (I only separated them for convenience.) Not a single one is an insurmountable problem in and of itself. But when combined, the forum quickly bogs down and collapses in on itself.

We don't want people to afraid to post, for fear of breaking some dogmatic "rules". Again, that's not what these are. We just want people to be aware of the bigger picture.

[Dale Baldwin]

Originally Posted by UPtimist

Like there would be anyone there speaking when I log in

We just don't like you, UP
Nah, in all seriousness, it only really starts to get "busy" around 8pm GMT (where busy is just more than myself and AGA (and Hajo)), and even when I'm there during the morning/afternoon, I'm not paying much attention to it.

[MoriartyL]

I happen to like weeds. You want to plant flowers, that's great, but do you really have to pick the weeds while you do it?

[Jelena]

Originally Posted by Jelena

I guess I'm guilty of escaping reality here and just hang out with online friends not wanting to be so serious as I have to be offline.

Originally Posted by The Impostor

Therein lies the problem. This thread has made it seem, even in the tiniest sense, like wanting to hang around and have fun and be silly is in some way a problem. Even with everybody apologising and then apologising for their apologies, I find it disturbing that even one person was prompted to write the word "sorry" in any sense. This comes down to a fundamental error in tone. To my eyes, it came across as angry and accusative, and thus angered me in response (you may have noticed the Meaningful Discussion thread, for which I'm now infracted). And for Christ's sake, you can't enforce meaningful discussion. Where the hell do you draw the line between what's meaningful and what's not; between what serves the wider community and what doesn't? I think you've shot yourselves in the foot by calling this the "Chit Chat" forum. Isn't this supposed to be the one place on here where you're allowed to say what you want? I'm honestly surprised that the Off-Topic forum on a site about adventure games 'needed' guidelines like this, but I must admit ignorance in these matters.

Most of the fun, for me, of this place comes from doing a lot of the things that are now unofficially denounced. I like being silly, and I like being silly with other people. Innuendo, flirting, whatever. Now that this is out in the open, I feel uncomfortable about posting anything at all, and the only thing I did post after this thread I was infracted for (though you could say justifiably). I am guilty of every single thing mentioned in the guidelines, and I am not sorry for doing any of them (heck, I enjoyed doing them!). Being an obscure impostor didn't serve the wider community; making silly threads didn't serve the wider community; and flirting, joking, innuendoing didn't serve the wider community either. In fact, nothing I've ever done here has served the wider community, if we use the meaning implied. Do you understand why I felt insulted by this? I'm not going to change how I act, because that's who I am. With these new rules, I effectively have no place on this forum.

Don't get me wrong; I think you made some valid points with this, but you made them the wrong way.

Since you quoted me, labelling your thread Accidentally Like A Martyr I'd like to point out that I'm not a martyr and I don't like it that you're calling me that. I never apologized for hanging out with online friends, I just acknowledged that I have done so, (and actually don't feel bad about it at all.)

[The Impostor]

Originally Posted by Jelena

Since you quoted me, labelling your thread Accidentally Like A Martyr I'd like to point out that I'm not a martyr and I don't like it that you're calling me that. I never apologized for hanging out with online friends, I just acknowledged that I have done so, (and actually don't feel bad about it at all.)

Actually, the "Accidentally Like A Martyr" was, if anything, in reference to me (just assume everything is in reference to me). It was a joke on my infraction nicked from Warren Zevon. That was all. I seldom resist the urge of obscure referencing.

And, though you may not feel bad about it, you acknowledged it as if it were a bad thing; as if the problem with the forum was that people weren't taking it seriously enough, and were just relaxing and goofing around. No one should feel like that.

[Jelena]

Originally Posted by The Impostor

Actually, the "Accidentally Like A Martyr" was, if anything, in reference to me (just assume everything is in reference to me). It was a joke on my infraction nicked from Warren Zevon. That was all. I seldom resist the urge of obscure referencing.

OK

And, though you may not feel bad about it, you acknowledged it as if it were a bad thing; as if the problem with the forum was that people weren't taking it seriously enough, and were just relaxing and goofing around. No one should feel like that.

I don't feel bad about my behaviour on the forum, but there is a legit discussion about the context of the threads in chit chat. I for one would like to contribute to an atmosphere where both newbies and regulars can feel welcome. I have no problem in talking about my part of it, I don't lose face doing so. There's really no need for you to cudgel your brain with what I should or shouldn't feel. (I'm not sure that was the best expression for what I want to say here. I have a headache, I'm tired...hope you read me right) I'm a big girl.
Of course we can continue being silly. But do we need to be silly all over? I don't.





On a side not: I saw Warren Zevon perform in a small bar called The Tide on Long Beach Island N.J in 1986 or -87. Ah, those memories!

[The Impostor]

Originally Posted by Jelena

There's really no need for you to cudgel your brain with what I should or shouldn't feel.

No, you're right. I was endeavouring to phrase that without coming across that way. I apologise for exploiting your words, Jelly.

Originally Posted by Jelena

On a side not: I saw Warren Zevon perform in a small bar called The Tide on Long Beach Island N.J in 1986 or -87. Ah, those memories!

Lucky thing!

[Jelena]

Originally Posted by The Impostor

No, you're right. I was endeavouring to phrase that without coming across that way. I apologise for exploiting your words, Jelly.

But you relly need to stop calling me that. I'll be forced to create a horrible name for you should you continue.......

oops, wrong thread.

[The Impostor]

Originally Posted by Jelena

But you relly need to stop calling me that. I'll be forced to create a horrible name for you should you continue.......

Oh, that will just spur me on further, my funny little Jellentine!

[BoyToy]

Originally Posted by Jelena

On a side not: I saw Warren Zevon perform in a small bar called The Tide on Long Beach Island N.J in 1986 or -87. Ah, those memories!

Oh cool! "Leave My Monkey Alone... Leave My Monkey Alone!"

[AFGNCAAP]

*cough*

[The Impostor]

Originally Posted by Jackal

Not at all.

Drat, and here was me feeling stubbornly defiant pride!

As I've said before, I understand exactly what you're saying and what you're trying to do; I just don't appreciate the way you went about it. Perhaps I was in the extreme minority, but when you label people talking about their lives outside of the Community Blog "navel-gazing", and titillating jokes "juvenile" (isn't this the internet?), you're not exactly asking for impartial diplomacy. If you say you weren't meant to be accusative, you could have fooled me. Though I run the risk of further sounding like a record broken, I don't think there would have been any apologising at all if there wasn't a problem with your tone.

Originally Posted by Jackal

But when a whole page of Chit Chat threads is littered with similar threads because many are doing the same thing at the same time, and the other threads are internally filled with the same conversations by the same people, then the forum becomes unbalanced and then there's a problem.

Who are you catering for, then? People who are here, or people who should be here? If everybody is making the same sorts of threads, maybe it's because they want to. If someone wants a meaningful discussion, they'll start a thread about it. If nobody posts in it, well then nobody really wants to talk about it. You can't make people care. Nobody thinks, "Hey, this guy is trying to start a serious discussion. Come on, everyone, let's sabotage it!". Obviously I'm exaggerating, but what you see as a problem is simply the way people here act, for better or worse. It's their, or, I should say, our, natural behaviour. It's like if you walked up to a friend and said, "Can you stop sounding so stupid? I fear it might scare off all the intelligent people I want to hang around with.". That's absurd, yes, but I don't think it's too absurd. Yes, we should be welcoming to the proverbial wider community, but there are less damaging ways, me thinks.

Apologies for involving you again, Jelena, but if I may quote (again):

Originally Posted by Jelena

I guess I'm guilty of escaping reality here and just hang out with online friends not wanting to be so serious as I have to be offline.

In my opinion, that's exactly what this place should be. Isn't a place where you're free to do whatever you want (providing you're not wilfully malicious, of course) more welcoming than a place full of staunch discussion*? Wouldn't a forum featuring everything from crude, 'pointless' jokes to serious discussion make it easier for new users to fit in? To my mind, it would seem relaxed and non-exclusive, especially if you were the sort of person who as a rule doesn't enjoy what most people classify as 'meaningful' discussions and would rather just goof around. I'm aware you're trying to strike this balance so that everyone does feel welcome, but, though not your intention, you've made it feel wrong to ever go against any of your rules. Who's going to talk about their life outside of the Community Blog now that you've classified it as "navel-gazing"? Who's going to use sexual innuendo now that it's "juvenile" (which I thought was the whole point)? And what of the new users who enjoy flirting, innuendo, ranting about nothing, and then read these guidelines?

If this forum got too heavy on the meaningful discussion, I can imagine many new users being intimidated. Again, this is down to that 'magic balance' you're trying to achieve, but if you push too hard, it may just come at the sake of the amiably open and free-spirited atmosphere of old; the one that seemed to suit the name "Chit Chat".

*I'm aware this is a wild exaggeration.

[The Impostor]

By the way: Moderators, can I suggest making a sticky "New-To-Chit-Chat" thread or something which encourages new users to post feedback or any queries they have about this forum? You could even be blunt and say something like, "If this thread starts to feel alienating or insular, tell us here — it's the only way we'll learn, and we all appreciate your feedback!". Something for them to simply introduce themselves, too. You can't argue with the horse's mouth, after all. It may be a bit tricky getting the right tone across (i.e. not sounding patronising), but I think it would be very helpful having a welcoming thread for new users.

[Melanie68]

The thing is, some people have been really bad about derailing threads (they were even light hearted subjects). Even when others tried to bring the thread back to the subject at hand, the derailing continued which I felt was incredibly rude. Even directly asking them to stop in some instances did not have the desired result as they felt they had the right to do whatever they wanted as it was Chit Chat after all. So I agree with Jackal in that a few asides are fine but when it's blatant and those posters have complete disregard for what other people are trying to discuss, then it's very rude and they should be more cognizant of other people's feelings.

Just because a certain type of thread is getting started a lot does not equal approval of those type of threads by everyone else. Certain voices were just starting to drown out everyone elses and you've seen other people say they just thought about leaving instead of saying something. But like I said, some quiet protests were made and dismissed hence the need for the guidelines. I, like FGM, could see where Jackal was coming from. To be honest, Impostor, you hadn't been here for that long since you were last posting so you hadn't seen the slow deterioration of things like I had. I had thought about PMing a moderator but never did. I guess I would have felt like a tattler but I should have just said something.

I'm sure the above could have been said better, but it will have to stand.

[AFGNCAAP]

Impostor: so you perhaps even agree with the gist of what was said, but feel offended by the tone. We got that the first time. And make no mistake - it's certainly as valuable opinion as any, but I feel that for the rest of your post you keep forgetting that it's your impression, rather than some kind of objective truth, that the tone of the message was aggressive or patronizing or accusative or what have you. Despite the fact that the majority of people who felt like posting here, thought the contrary.

So, yes, theoretically, there is a risk of getting from one extreme to another. But if on one hand Jackal several times openly asserted it's not the desired effect by us, and on the other hand very few forumites so far shared your criticism about the way that was chosen to deal with the problem, then who exactly is going to make such possibility a reality?

[The Impostor]

Originally Posted by Melanie68

Even when others tried to bring the thread back to the subject at hand, the derailing continued which I felt was incredibly rude.

If it seems like intentional derailment, it should be handled privately by the moderators. Or if it simply goes that way, a moderator should post a friendly "Hey, guys, we're getting a bit off-topic here. How about winding it back a bit?" or something. I once shot my mouth off entirely inappropriately and was quietly told off by a moderator. It seemed like an effective way to deal with it to me. I don't think the guidelines will necessarily prevent this sort of thing from occurring.

Originally Posted by Melanie68

Certain voices were just starting to drown out everyone elses and you've seen other people say they just thought about leaving instead of saying something.

I think that's a valid point. But I don't see how restricting the sorts of things people can say here really addresses that. What if the unheard voices just want to flirt or something? Moderating with a few warnings or "back-on-topic" posts seems to me the best way to address that. But really, there's no definitive solution to it, as it's something that happens in virtually all circumstances of human interaction, no matter who the guiding hand. People will still be drowned out on or off topic. Everyone's probably been in a situation where one person is dominating a particular group, and there's really not much you can do about it. Addressing it in the open air will just embarrass or patronise the quiet voices. An anonymous complaints thread, perhaps? No.

Originally Posted by melanie68

To be honest, Impostor, you hadn't been here for that long since you were last posting so you hadn't seen the slow deterioration of things like I had. I had thought about PMing a moderator but never did. I guess I would have felt like a tattler but I should have just said something.

I don't mean to impart blame, but why should the fault fall soley on the people who post here? Correct me if I'm wrong, as I have only been here sporadically, but hasn't this forum lasted fairly well for a good number of years already — and without these guidelines? I'm not saying it's the moderators' fault or anything, but I don't think the blame should fall squarely on some of the posters here. Maybe it is just a freak change in culture, but I think you should address the issue of how and why it happened before you offer a solution.

Originally Posted by Melanie68

I'm sure the above could have been said better, but it will have to stand.

No it doesn't. Even putting aside the actual points made, I think it would be a disaster to leave this as it is. I think it should be rephrased for the sake of new users if it's going to remain up here. Or simply unstick this one and create a new guidelines thread aimed at both old and new users, with lots of smiley face things to sweeten the tone.

Though I'm in the minority for virtually wanting to leave after reading the guidelines, one discouraged voice is one too many, no matter who it is, especially since the aim of these guidelines is to expand the community. You can't please everybody, sure, and you may say the fault is all mine, but that's how I felt upon reading it. And I'm not that irrational.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by The Impostor

By the way: Moderators, can I suggest making a sticky "New-To-Chit-Chat" thread or something which encourages new users to post feedback or any queries they have about this forum?

I can't tell if you are kidding, but anyway: I'm not sure I see the practicality. There is a sticky thread in Hints and Tips with a big fat "READ THIS" in the title, which most users seem to ignore. I think it's safe to say a Chit Chat one would end up the same way. And everyone is always encouraged to post/PM any forum-related feedback or queries they might have. Perhaps we could add a line like this to the Forum FAQ, if something to that effect is not already there.

[Melanie68]

Originally Posted by The Impostor

No it doesn't. Even putting aside the actual points made, I think it would be a disaster to leave this as it is. I think it should be rephrased for the sake of new users if it's going to remain up here. Or simply unstick this one and create a new guidelines thread aimed at both old and new users, with lots of smiley face things to sweeten the tone.

Though I'm in the minority for virtually wanting to leave after reading the guidelines, one discouraged voice is one too many, no matter who it is, especially since the aim of these guidelines is to expand the community. You can't please everybody, sure, and you may say the fault is all mine, but that's how I felt upon reading it. And I'm not that irrational.

Actually, I was talking about my particular post and how it might have been said better. I think what Jackal said was perfectly fine to be honest with you. Sometimes I don't see much wrong with a whap upside the head at times to rebalance things. Although after a little while, a more neutral post would work. For the people here already, I think it is said well. It may be a little more quiet in in Chit Chat in terms of silliness for a while but I assure you it'll come back and probably be more balanced like it was before.