[Huz]

I can't be arsed reading this thread, but the need for it to exist makes me sad.

[Jackal]

There's no reason for anyone to feel guilty for anything, and no apologies necessary. There have been no rules broken, no offenses committed, and nothing that's occurred here is inherently "bad" or "wrong", or even inappropriate in moderation. But that moderation is a tricky balance to maintain, and the forum has become increasingly imbalanced the longer we've remained silent, so it was finally time to say something.

Of course there's still room for fun and silliness and camaraderie. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know AG very well. Let's just be mindful that it's not taken to the point of turning the forum into an exclusive members-only club... Uhh, well, it is a members-only club, but you know what I mean.

Like I said, it's all about balance. I don't think it's too much to ask that the most active members are mindful of that.

EDIT: Just noting that this was written before the pinkgothic and AFGNCAAP posts, so I wasn't directly responding to (or ignoring) either.

[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

I, in turn, don't appreciate you implying that anyone is manipulated or pressured into apologizing. Jackal's opening post(s) specifically says it's not about blame or shame.

No, I've specifically said the MODS are doing there job, and are doing so well. I do not appreciate some of the responses here.

[Squinky]

I apologised because I felt it was right to do so, not because I'm feeling pressured by anyone else. While it is true that my intentions were not malicious, that doesn't change the fact that they were insensitive and inappropriate, and this, I regret. That is all.

[pinkgothic]

*raises arms, drops them*

That's not my point. But I honestly don't have the energy to explain what I meant - so please forget I said anything. I was hoping it might be obvious, but, as with many of my posts (and there is no cynicism in this statement), I guess I missed the mark.

In a nutshell: Since I can't explain myself appropriately in my current state of mind, and it's not been understood... please, just, nevermind. I mean that with no malice - I'd delete my posts, but there's already a discussion about it now.

[Jatsie]

*sigh*

and this used to be such a happy place...

*shakes head*

[Relek]

Originally Posted by Jat316sob

*sigh*

and this used to be such a happy place...

*shakes head*

I hardly think that comments like that are very constructive.

Let's just stop bickering, this thread was made to try and motivate people that we can make this forum interesting, or so I presume.

[Jackal]

Yes, let's. It has not been a happy place for very many people, or this thread wouldn't have been necessary.

[Hammerite]

it mustve changed a lot, i remember feeling really welcome when i join'd.
we should change

[Jelena]

Trying to get a hold of my thoughts here.....
It's a good thing this came up for discussion. I agree that the recent discussions in many of the threads have been mindless. I have my fair share of contribution to it. I guess I'm guilty of escaping reality here and just hang out with online friends not wanting to be so serious as I have to be offline.
Thanks Jackal for bringing it up.
I can't see that this will bring anything but good for us. Just being better at staying on topic will be a great improvement. We used to be quite good at reminding each other to do so only half a year (or so) ago.

[bulldog]

I feel like Squinky does. I apologized b/c I felt like it was the right thing for me, not b/c I felt like I was being co worst into doing so.

Jackal thank you for the topic. I hate that a thread like this has to exist but if that is what it takes to get us back to where we need to be then let’s move forward. Thanks man

[The Impostor]

Originally Posted by Jelena

I guess I'm guilty of escaping reality here and just hang out with online friends not wanting to be so serious as I have to be offline.

Therein lies the problem. This thread has made it seem, even in the tiniest sense, like wanting to hang around and have fun and be silly is in some way a problem. Even with everybody apologising and then apologising for their apologies, I find it disturbing that even one person was prompted to write the word "sorry" in any sense. This comes down to a fundamental error in tone. To my eyes, it came across as angry and accusative, and thus angered me in response (you may have noticed the Meaningful Discussion thread, for which I'm now infracted). And for Christ's sake, you can't enforce meaningful discussion. Where the hell do you draw the line between what's meaningful and what's not; between what serves the wider community and what doesn't? I think you've shot yourselves in the foot by calling this the "Chit Chat" forum. Isn't this supposed to be the one place on here where you're allowed to say what you want? I'm honestly surprised that the Off-Topic forum on a site about adventure games 'needed' guidelines like this, but I must admit ignorance in these matters.

Most of the fun, for me, of this place comes from doing a lot of the things that are now unofficially denounced. I like being silly, and I like being silly with other people. Innuendo, flirting, whatever. Now that this is out in the open, I feel uncomfortable about posting anything at all, and the only thing I did post after this thread I was infracted for (though you could say justifiably). I am guilty of every single thing mentioned in the guidelines, and I am not sorry for doing any of them (heck, I enjoyed doing them!). Being an obscure impostor didn't serve the wider community; making silly threads didn't serve the wider community; and flirting, joking, innuendoing didn't serve the wider community either. In fact, nothing I've ever done here has served the wider community, if we use the meaning implied. Do you understand why I felt insulted by this? I'm not going to change how I act, because that's who I am. With these new rules, I effectively have no place on this forum.

Don't get me wrong; I think you made some valid points with this, but you made them the wrong way.

[The Impostor]

I should mention that I react badly to things like this. I don't mean to cause offence. No doubt I'll sleep and regret, but for the moment, I'm still somewhat angry. Best endure me in the mean.

[Spiwak]

Perhaps, but you know they are not going to just start shutting down threads that become derailed. All they're asking is that you consider everyone else when you post something. People have expressed a certain amount of discomfort with how the boards have been progressing, and that obviously isn't the purpose of the board. The chit-chat forum should be inviting to new people and not overwhelming. I'm just as guilty of what they're referring to, sometimes...so letting us know that there's a problem will hopefully make us not necessarily change the atmosphere, but simply make us respect the other forumites when posting. I dunno.

[Jackal]

If anyone thinks that we've categorically denounced having fun or a reasonable amount of playfulness in Chit Chat, then they weren't reading very carefully. And by making this an appeal to the community itself, it should be obvious that we want people to be active participants in the direction and moderation of this board. We're NOT "enforcing" meaningful discussion or even defining meaningful discussion. That's something we want people to work out for themselves. What we ARE doing is intervening on behalf of what is quickly becoming the silent or disappearing majority. Posts don't have to serve the community, but they do have to be respectful of it, and right now that simply isn't happening to the degree it needs to.

I quite disagree that this post was at all angry or accusative. Of course it wasn't sweetness and light - it was addressing real problems caused by real people. Toes were inevitably going to get stepped on and perhaps egos bruised. I even tried my best to avoid that, but not at the expense of effecting change. A little anger is not evidence of any fundamental error in tone or message, only evidence that some people react differently when taking things personally.

The goal of this is to strengthen the forum on a broader scale than the relative few benefitting right now. I will be utterly mystified if anyone leaves, feeling that a certain amount of consideration for others is too much to ask. But frankly, if that happens, it happens. Sometimes a small step backwards is needed to move forward again when hopelessly caught in a rut.

To address a few other points raised here, nowhere did I say the forum should become more serious. Since when is "meaning" required to be solemn and dreary?

Also, let me reiterate that threads are going to wander and even derail. THAT'S FINE. All I asked is to be thoughtful in doing it. And perhaps even take a more proactive role in bringing threads back around when they do. No one should confuse this as a mandate to never post off topic or devoid of any personality.

[Fairygdmther]

Jackal, I've always found you to very fair, seeing every side of an argument. Perhaps because of that, I saw no anger in your long-winded (for you on the forum) post. I know that I, too, at times have contributed to the mindless drivel, and did so without thought to the exclusionary walls that might put up.

I'm one of those that did think of leaving, due to the increasingly sexual descriptive language used here. I'm not a prude, but when I'd see that, I would cringe, thinking that I wouldn't want a kid of mine reading this and think of SamNMax, who spent many days, and hours here before his 14th birthday).

Something needed to be done, and I'm glad you took a sane approach, and not a draconian one. Once again, I applaud your sense of fairness.

Thank you

FGM

[The Impostor]

I understand exactly why it was done, but the simple fact that more than one person responded with an apology, no matter what its motivation, implies that, at least in some respects, it could have been handled marginally better. Perhaps something more like:

OK, guys, in the interest of broadening the community, can we tone down on the pointless threads, too-personal comments and innuendo a tad? It's a bit alienating for new users. Cheers.

But that probably wouldn't have worked. I know these guidelines weren't intended to cause offence or sap the fun, and that they had the wider community in mind, but them's my five cents.

On an entirely personal level, I still feel mixed about posting again, as literally everything I've done as The Impostor has broken these guidelines. Perhaps I'm even the most notorious offender of all by this criteria. So let me get away with one more irrationally bitter remark before I go: The only way I can think of to respect the wider community is by not patronising them with self-consciously open-armed posts. Then again...

Solution: make a SEX! FLIRTING! LEWD INNUENDO! PERSONAL DETAILS THAT NO ONE CARES ABOUT! ERSATZ CHATZ! THREADS ABOUT NOTHING! forum, and dedicate this place to the meaningful stuff.

[The Impostor]

Originally Posted by Relek

I hardly think that comments like that are very constructive.

I think it was mildly more constructive than, "It's time we stop masturbating over eachothers so called "wit"."

[The Impostor]

By the bye, if I caused offence or cause offence in the future, I apologise. That is not my intention. I may have overreacted a bit initially, but I still stand by my intentions in doing so.

[Flyboy]

I agree for the most part with what Jackal is saying, but mainly because these forums have become too boring, repetitive and directionless to want to participate in.

I use to check every day and find a number of interesting topics where I could share my opinions, but lately everything just feels so watered down. I'm not saying I haven't contributed in any way to this, but I've tried as well to initiate some healthy thought-provoking debate with threads like the global warming one which a lot of people seem to avoid. Not to say that everyone should be interested in everything, but it would be a pleasant change to be able to come here each day and have the option of choosing from a handful of interesting conversations that I'd like to inject myself into.