[The Impostor]

Actually, I had stopped arguing completely. No one seems to have noticed. I thought AFGNCAAP wrote a good, fair reply, and I responded. After that response (which included the words, "Argument ended!", and not in an "I win" kind of way), I merely wanted to emphasise that I was no longer going to delve into tedious multi-paragraph arguments by posting a few, brief, self-deprecating asides (two of which were at least on topic). Sure, they were irrelevant, and perhaps irreverent, but my motivations were simply: This is getting out of hand — post something silly. Little did little me know such flippancy would simply spawn another argument!

Thus: if I partake in serious discussion (which is what this is), I piss everyone off. If I don't, I piss everyone off. So it goes.

Originally Posted by akane_t

Impostor, I hope you realize that for every one Pinkgothic who enjoys your sense of humor and irreverence, there are more than a few members and mods who are annoyed by them.

One pinkgothic is worth all the everybody elses in the world!

And by that I mean:

Well, you can't please everybody. My sense of humour isn't exactly something I can just change. Sure, I could attempt to be more 'respectful', whatever that means, but irreverence is a big part of my humour. Not in the sense of hating authority for no reason or anything, but in the sense of not thinking them any more or less worthy than anyone else of special treatment purely on the grounds of their authority — or lack thereof, or whatever. I think a degree of irreverence is always healthy. Not looking good for the wider community, eh?

Which brings about mention of my fundamental from-birth inclination towards obscurity. I don't leave just anyone out when I make an obscure joke, I leave everyone out. Anyone who's read my blog (nigh on no one — I don't recommend it) will know this. It's not always wilful obscurity, but it honestly doesn't bother me. I simply am obscure, and I have no problem with it. It's fun wondering if anyone will pick up on something or not (they usually just ignore it — no harm done!). Yes, it excludes the wider community, but it also excludes the rest of the community. Even when it seems solely directed at Ms. Back Today, she probably still doesn't know what I'm on about. I probably don't either. That's me. Add to this a love for nonsense and you've got the worst senator for wider community affairs this side of everywhere.

Originally Posted by Jeysie

So, the "teachers" have asked people to keep the chatter to a minimum in class and pay more attention to the subject... and that socializing is fine, just that "class" is not the place for it.

That's fine. If you want this to be like a classroom, I'll simply leave. And I'm not saying this as an argument in any way. If I'm not allowed to be particularly obscure or irreverent or irrelevantly silly, I have little reason to be here. That's entirely personal. I enjoy doing those things, and if I can't do them, I don't see the point in hanging around. That's fine. I hung around here on the basis that I felt relatively free to express myself in any way I saw fit (and within the boundary of what I personally judged to be relatively fair to the spirit of the place, and community et cet blah blah). Sometimes I may want to launch into a long-winded argument on something or rather; other times I may just want to post obscure jokes. I enjoyed this place because I had the opportunity to do those things, and with people I respected. If my obscure jokes were ignored and my arguments attacked, that didn't matter. I still got to say them. If this is somewhere where I can't be myself in all regards, this is somewhere I don't really want to be. Again, that's fine. This place can be whatever it wants to be. I clearly just had a different idea of what it was.

Of course, you're not going to get rid of me that easily.

Not without naming names...

OK, everyone who's annoyed by me (outside of the nonsense on this thread, that is) stand up!

Well, I wouldn't do that, but I am curious. I honestly don't have any ill will towards people who are annoyed by me — in fact, I respect them for it. Clearly I annoy Jeysie, for one. And Ranma's love interest. Jackal no doubt thinks little of me. Maybe I should make a "Court Will Now Come To Order" thing about it...

(I'm joking, by the way.)

Isn't it funny that I may have just managed to inadvertently annoy more people as the new-and-improved Impostor than as omloflonk?

But I digress.

[SCRUGAtes13]

Originally Posted by The Impostor

One pinkgothic is worth all the everybody elses in the world!

you go on my top five heroes list with sam bic, the philosopher guy from reality bites, snake pliskin and d-fens from falling down.

hats off.

[AFGNCAAP]

Okay. Anyone who is willing to discuss why The Impostor is annoying, or why The Impostor is in their personal top five, from now on use suitable avenues for that, outside this thread. Thanks.

[akane_t]

*sigh*

I feel like the tail-end of an auroboros. We seem to be going around in a circle without understanding each other.

I for one feel that it's perfectly fine for one to be a bit irreverent and silly on an Internet forum. I'd actually welcome some of that. What Jackal and others have try to express is not that somebody who want to engage in irreverence and silliness should be silenced on the Chit Chat forum. What annoys me personally is not you Impostor or your penchant for engaging in irreverence and silliness. Those things are all good but (and this is a big but) it's good only to a certain degree. What I have a problem with is that a small number of very vocal and frequent posters overindulging in silliness and drowning out all other voices, even that of who are looking to engage in what they think is a serious and meaningful discussion.

By all means, be irreverent. Be silly. But also realize that in certain cases, your silliness and irreverence is not welcome and in such cases, if the only contribution you can make is being silly and irreverent, then maybe you should be silent. There are member of the forum who find it annoying to have the the first forum page to be littered with silly, even if some of it is indeed humorous, threads. There are several threads that's designed for the members to be silly and irreverent. Isn't Thread Must Die a perfect place for that? Maybe, just maybe, a thread like this one is not the proper place for your irreverence and silliness.

[The Impostor]

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

Okay. Anyone who is willing to discuss why The Impostor is annoying, or why The Impostor is in their personal top five, from now on use suitable avenues for that, outside this thread. Thanks.

(Sorry, I didn't intend to actually start something like that.)

The Impostor Thread: For And Against!

Me thinks not.

Originally Posted by SCRUGAtes13

you go on my top five heroes list with sam bic, the philosopher guy from reality bites, snake pliskin and d-fens from falling down.

hats off.

And I shall hat-off in grateful return, Mr. SCRUGAtes13.

[Relek]

It's ironic that people have turned a thread notifying us that we need to stop talking nothing....into a thread about nothing, stop friggin arguing, what's done is done, geeze!

I think this thread needs to be locked or something.

[The Impostor]

Originally Posted by akane_t

*sigh*
By all means, be irreverent. Be silly. But also realize that in certain cases, your silliness and irreverence is not welcome and in such cases, if the only contribution you can make is being silly and irreverent, then maybe you should be silent. There are member of the forum who find it annoying to have the the first forum page to be littered with silly, even if some of it is indeed humorous, threads. There are several threads that's designed for the members to be silly and irreverent. Isn't Thread Must Die a perfect place for that? Maybe, just maybe, a thread like this one is not the proper place for your irreverence and silliness.

If you want to stop this argument going round in circles, bringing up more arguments isn't the greatest way to do that. I've already stopped (or attempted to stop) arguing about the topic of this thread (and fairly favourably towards your side, I thought), and I've clearly stated that this is an entirely personal decision. I just don't particularly want to hang around a forum where my judgement on how I should behave (and respect the community) is deemed to be inadequate.* And I'm not saying that bitterly. There of course needs to be moderation on a forum, and I understand that. I just clearly thought I was off in a dream-land of nigh uninhibition, which is why I enjoyed being here. That's my problem. I will not censor myself.

I'm not really a forum person. In fact, this is pretty much the only forum I've actively participated in. My main attraction to it was simply as an outlet to express myself. Limit that expression, and I shrug and leave.

*Of course, that doesn't mean I won't.

[tabacco]

Originally Posted by The Impostor

(Sorry, I didn't intend to actually start something like that.)

The Impostor Thread: For And Against!

Me thinks not.



And I shall hat-off in grateful return, Mr. SCRUGAtes13.

Again... stop.

[AFGNCAAP]

Everyone*, I'm not kidding. Stop.

This thread will not be locked (not yet at least), for the simple reason that it's just three days old and there may be people who wish to contribute in a different way than dragging on this particular discussion. But I will start deleting all posts that follow which attempt to continue the argument with/about The Impostor (including his own), or commenting on this argument etc. and getting really angry at their authors.

Even if you want to say that you are sorry, but had missed my previous post, or that I am totally right, or totally wrong and this thread should be immediately closed, do it in private. Let's leave this thread for something more productive.

*EDIT: except tabacco.

[Jackal]

Well, this has been a wonderful demonstration of trolling.

My thanks to those forumites (and AFGNCAAP) who have attempted to treat this issue productively, however often it may have been needlessly hijacked. But yes, it's time for everyone to move on now. I would gladly lock this thread based on the direction it's taken, but the reason for having an open thread in the first place is that people may wish clarification or have valuable input to offer, and I don't want to cut off that opportunity too quickly. So it will stay open for now, and will return to its original intent from this point forward.

So, if there's anyone we haven't heard from yet, by all means feel free to speak up now without fear that it will be buried under mountains of irrelevance.

[BoyToy]

Hey Jackal,

I think I can understand your basic concern, which makes you believe you had to act.

But, whilst I'd agree to some aspects of your opinion about possible deficiencies the state of AGF-CC might have, I

1. don't think your conclusions are well thought-out, nor do I think will they have the effect you desire in the long run.
2. think you didn't appropriately consider the advantages the state of AGF-CC has.

So the question raises:
What is your idea of an ideal AGF-CC? What do you measure its well-being with? What is the most important aspect of a forum in your eyes?

I think it could help the discussion, if people knew (or even agreed) on how to judge the well-being of the forum. (And I mean the state of the forum as a whole, not how to judge individual posts.)
And in trying to objectify your ideas: What are indicators we should look at, in your opinion?
Is it the mere number of active posters? Rate of new AGF-members, who contribute in CC? Is it, whether you find the topics posted interesting, for you personally?

Any optimization requires a quantifyable goal. (And in case of conflicting goals, even priorization amongst the goals.)
And since I think the value of AGF-CC can't be quantified, your attempt is doomed to fail, in my opinion (compare a., above).

But maybe, at least a priorization of qualitative goals would be possible?


Also, let me try to point out where I strongly disagree from your apparent idea of a better CC forum:

Originally Posted by Jackal

personal conversations are not appropriate, period

This idea makes me pretty much speechless, and simply sad!

AGF-CC used to be (and still is) a very special place. And I'd say, your ideas, all in all, would make it less special, Jackal.
Someone pointed out that they even found the WoW-OT forum more interesting than AGF-CC. Yeah, fine, I respect that opinion. But why would the world need yet another WoW-OT forum???

I'm not saying AGF-CC couldn't improve. And maybe it was a 'better' place at an earlier point in time.
But that's down to individually subjective opinions - and ultimately more or less impossible to control.
Whether we like it or not.

[Jeysie]

I have to admit I don't see what the problem is, BoyToy, no offense.

At every other forum I post at, the Off-Topic forum - which is what I always thought Chit-Chat was, just with a cutesy name - is basically a place where you still have threads that have topics and should stay on-topic within a thread... it's only the off-topic forum because it's about stuff aside from whatever the main part of the forum is devoted to.

So, discouraging private conversations except for a few threads devoted to randomness makes perfect sense to me. On a public forum, you have public discussions. If you want to have a private discussion, you have it in a private venue. Like, as already mentioned, PM or IM or e-mail... or how about that IRC channel? Chats are great places for silliness and private convos...

So, yeah. I just don't see why the mods' requests are so unreasonable.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by BoyToy

1. don't think your conclusions are well thought-out, nor do I think will they have the effect you desire in the long run.
2. think you didn't appropriately consider the advantages the state of AGF-CC has.

I have no idea what "conclusions" you're referring to, but given your comments that follow, I can only assume you also have chosen to blow this issue out of proportion, isolate individual aspects, take things out of context, and/or treat them as absolutes. And since I've already gone through that already, I don't see the need to do it again. The issue seems to be quite well understood except, not coincidentally, by those who disagree with the principle to begin with.

And you can be sure that the people who run this site day in and day out have put a lot more thought into this than anyone. I would think that fact would be self-evident.

I'm not going to address your points in the kind of clinical breakdown you seem to want. I've explained numerous times that our goal for the forum is a reasonable balance that encourages broader participation, and that the issues highlighted are nothing more than the areas of imbalance that has led to a decreasing number of people contributing. Again, most people seem to be getting that remarkably simple concept without quantifying, objectifying, or any other fyings.

AGF-CC used to be (and still is) a very special place. And I'd say, your ideas, all in all, would make it less special, Jackal.

Instead of addressing this to me, you should probably be addressing it to the people who have already stood up to say that Chit Chat has already become "less special" to them the way it is now. Because really you're just saying that because a core few like Chit Chat exactly the way it is (and only a core few, as many of the most active posters seem to recognize the value in this), the others are SOL. Well, no.

This idea makes me pretty much speechless, and simply sad!

Maybe you understood this correctly, but probably not. Yet again, I've already said that there's room for camaraderie and personal exchanges. But not entire conversations, and not to the extent that they choke off all else. But I'm once again repeating myself. It's all there for all to see already.

But that's down to individually subjective opinions - and ultimately more or less impossible to control.
Whether we like it or not.

No, not individually. But otherwise, at last we finally agree on something, because we aren't trying to control it. We're simply raising awareness and asking people to be mindful of larger issues. You know, sometimes when you play the music too loud, you simply don't realize how many people can hear it. We're just reminding people that there are others in the neighbourhood before any more of them move away.

[lostwolfe]

for what it's worth, here's how i see chit chat [and to be honest and fair, the name is too cutesy for my tastes, but i digress....]

chit-chat, for me, is analogous to off-topic. which is exactly as it is. it /is/ off-topic. and for that reason, i tend to assume that /everything/ in off-topic will be, well, off-topic.

to that end here's how i approach off-topic:

i generally tend to read the subjects that look like they're going to be interesting to me - and then, i really only stick to page one. if i know there's a thread that i can add to, i'll add to it [i've even dredged up a couple in the past, when i knew the subject directly related to what i wanted to say]

otherwise, i read and leave alone. the way i think about it is, if i'm simply not interested in part-taking i don't.

the current state of chit-chat? i don't really mind how it is either way. though i /do/ have one thing i might suggest. and this is the only thing i might suggest - if making a non-all-ages thread, you may want to say so up front. and this is purely because i know there are forumites younger than eighteen here. [fairygodmother mentioned samnmax, i would guess there's a number of other folks here, too.] - the other thing i'd suggest is labelling if some topic is work safe or not.

i come from misetings.com [which is a magic humour site] and that particular board - from an outsider's point of view probably seems completely out of control, but it works, becasue the /forumites/ [in the end] dictate what they want to read and how much. [there are more strict rules there - they have an active policy on how long a thread may "live" and other such rules, but misetings has survived, because their /members/ take the lead in what they want to see. [there is, to whit, even a survivor thread to ban people who they aren't fond of that are basically doing the community a disservice.]

this is how i feel chit-chat should be: if you want to read it, go ahead and do so. if you want to reply to it, go ahead and do so. if you want to ignore it, go ahead and do so.

this is how i feel about moderators: gentle nudges, i think, work better [in fact, i'd suggest that actual forumites gently nudge, too] - if you feel something is straying way off topic, or becoming too cliquey, or something of that nature, simply say so. if the poster keeps /repeatedly/ offending, let the moderators know. that's what they're there for. [among other reasons]

i admit, though, that having come from misetings, i'm fairly laissez-faire about this sort of thing.

right. having made my points, i wish to also comment on jackal's missive:

one of the things that's prevalent about misetings is the active role the moderators play in misetings. jackal is doing approximately the same thing here. he is actively trying to help nudge chit-chat in a good direction. while i don't think the "school room" approach is necessary, i do think he has every right to do so. this is his [and the moderators] "official position" - they are - for want of a better term - gentle shepherds of the community.

so, while i'm somewhat in favour of the community helping to lead discussions, i'm also somewhat in favour of the moderators nudging. i think jackal gently nudged.

my personal opinion [and this is /only/ my personal opinion, nothing more] is that it could have worded more gently, but it is done.

before i head off [and check out the rest of chit chat]:

impostor, for what it's worth, i think there's a place for you here. i didn't post in any of the threads that you posted into, but, i read and was amused, but i think there's a place for everyone here. jackal did not say [and neither has any other moderator] not to have fun. he merely said to consider carefully before posting, which, i think, is simply good forum practise.

anyhow. off i go.

[BoyToy]

Sorry to say that, but to a certain degree I have wonder if some people actually invest some time to reflect and think about what they read before they reply - or whether the reply is just a reflex, repeating their opinions.

Originally Posted by Jeysie

At every other forum I post at, the Off-Topic forum is ...

That's exactly one of my points: What's the use of yet another forum of the same kind?! If you want that kind of atmosphere on a forum, everybody can already post there.

AGF-CC will become pretty superfluous, if it's going to become like every other OT forum.

Originally Posted by Jackal

I have no idea what "conclusions" you're referring to

"Conclusions" is exactly those ideas (guidelines) you proposed in your inital post of this very thread.

I can only assume you also have ...<insert lots of negativity here>

So why did you choose to assume exactly that kind of stuff? If you don't understand what I meant, then why don't you ask first?
The fact you choose to draw all those negative conclusions speaks for itself.

I don't see the need to do it again.

None of what I said had been said before.
But you are correct in one thing: There is no need. You don't need to reply at all, you know. If you get criticised, try to think about it, and deal with it. But there is no need to justify your opinions (especially not, if you did that before already).

The issue seems to be quite well understood except, not coincidentally, by those who disagree with the principle to begin with.

Let me, for once, repeat something that has been said before in this thread: There is a difference between not-understanding and disagreeing.
You don't seem to understand that. (And on top of that, I did explicitly say that I do understand your issue, in the very first line of my posting! Maybe I didn't understand every bit exactly the way you meant it. But you can rest assured I got the gist of it.)

What I really don't understand, and what makes me angry, is the subtle malignity with which you tend to react to criticism. (And please forgive me, that I am acting similar now, as I don't see a point it trying to hide the emotions I now have.)
Are you really such a bigheaded stubborn hypocrit?

And you can be sure that the people who run this site day in and day out have put a lot more thought into this than anyone.

I have no reason to doubt this. And if you spend your whole life thinking about a particulary issue, this doesn't mean that you will automatically come up with the right solution.

Don't you see? You are so busy justifying yourself, that you tend to not reflect what's being said anymore.

our goal for the forum is a reasonable balance that encourages broader participation,

OK, I did understand that, but I just couldn't be sure whether that particular point was your top priority. Good.

So the problem still is (and I'd assume you are aware of that) that reasonable balance is a term like wax.

Again, before you're jumping to wrong conclusions again: It's not that I don't understand what you mean. (The two of us apparently even have similar goals, if it comes down to it.) But different people have different ideas of what a reasonable balance is. (This holds true to every single one of the guidelines you formulated.) Thus I fear your effor will be fruitless in the long run. (Yet I'd say, it's basically OK that you try it.)

Also, an important point seems to be this:
In one place you are speaking of balance, but in the next place you come up with absolutes like "personal conversations are not appropriate, period". That's contradictory and required clarification, which I think you gave now.
Do I get you right now, that you actually don't mean it as an absolute 'no-no'? (That would change your initial statement a lot!)

you should probably be addressing it to the people who have already stood up to say that Chit Chat has already become "less special" to them the way it is now

Anyone who thinks CC has become less special to them (and I might belong to that group), will start wondering why that is.
But it is only one theory that it has become less special to them because of personal/sex/silly-threads.
My theory is, that it is because there simply aren't enough 'interesting' new topics coming up. I don't think the personal/sex/silly-threads and posts are that numerous that they would easily manage to suppress those other 'interesting' threads from the first page - if those threads would be there. What you and the people see (namely, majority of posts being personal/sex/silly) is the symptom, not the cause. It's all relative.

Well, maybe the truth lies somewhere inbetween those theories. Or maybe I am completely wrong. That's all possible.
But you could be wrong, too. So please stop discrediting the people, who disagree your opinion, with polemic allegations like they wouldn't understand your opinions. Comprehend?

No, not individually.

OK, let's say it's down to your/the-staff's subjective opinions. That's only fair.
But then, this might conflict with your overall goal of broader participation. Time will tell, and I wish you success.

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by lostwolfe

chit-chat, for me, is analogous to off-topic. which is exactly as it is. it /is/ off-topic. and for that reason, i tend to assume that /everything/ in off-topic will be, well, off-topic.

See, that's where I disagree. To me, "Off-Topic" means simply "Forum section for threads not about the forum's main subject". In this case, a section for discussions not related to gaming or the forum/website itself. It does *not* mean that a thread in Off-Topic can be dragged off-topic.

If I want to, say, talk about what people think of the latest blockbuster movie, I'm not going to put it in the other sections; it doesn't go there. Yet, when I put it in Off-Topic, I want the thread to stay on topic about the movie... I don't want it to suddenly turn into a tangent of private in-jokes and discussions and I find myself excluded from my own thread.

Originally Posted by BoyToy

What's the use of yet another forum of the same kind?! If you want that kind of atmosphere on a forum, everybody can already post there.

Several reasons:

One, I don't go to other forums.

Two, I like the people here. At the "worst", they share a love of adventure games and other computer games. At the best, they're people I like.

So, yeah, I could go to any other forum and, to use my existing example, ask for opinions on the latest movies. But they wouldn't be opinions from Jelena, Melanie, Sage, Lacey, etc. etc. They wouldn't be opinions from people I care about.

Three, if we don't have a forum devoted to topics outside of adventure gaming, where does that leave us? I don't live and breathe adventure games... I like to be able to post about other stuff occasionally. Here, with people I know and like, and who are fellow gamers.

But, again, that doesn't mean when I want to post about movies, I want it to suddenly derail into some other discussion. If you want to have free-flowing discussions where you go on the ebb and flow of various tangents and people drop in and out as they fit in, that's the type of activity that, again, belongs in a *chat room*. Or, at the very least, in a new thread.

The threads on a forum are already separated "conversations". That's how a forum *works*. If I click on a thread entitled "Movies", I expect the thread to be about movies or filmmaking... I don't expect to read posts of people making googly-eyes at each other or talking about what they ate last night, or whatever. I was hoping to discuss movies... so if I see people having off-topic private conversations that exclude everyone else, I feel disappointed.

For anyone who skipped this, an actual suggestion: Maybe what we need is just some renaming. We can have one section called "Chit-Chat" that actually *is* chit-chat - though again, don't understand why people wouldn't just use IM or IRC or something *designed* for that - and one section called "Discussions not related to computer and video games or the website".

Peace & Luv, Liz

[BoyToy]

I forgot the following in my post above - sorry:

Originally Posted by Jeysie

discouraging private conversations [...] makes perfect sense to me. On a public forum, you have public discussions.

I think you are confusing private-vs-public with personal-vs-unpersonal. Those are two, basically independent, aspects of conversation.
I don't see anything generally wrong about personal conversation in public.

So, yeah. I just don't see why the mods' requests are so unreasonable.

I'm just saying they won't result in achieving the desired goal in the long run.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by BoyToy

That's exactly one of my points: What's the use of yet another forum of the same kind?! If you want that kind of atmosphere on a forum, everybody can already post there.

AGF-CC will become pretty superfluous, if it's going to become like every other OT forum.

"Serving the same (general) purpose as every other" does not equal "being like every other", and Jeysie was clearly saying only about the former.

So the problem still is (and I'd assume you are aware of that) that reasonable balance is a term like wax.

Yes - and the same goes for "spamming", "troll", "civil", "assertive", as well as "adventure game", "democracy", "love", "injustice" and "lie". It doesn't prevent people from using those terms and expecting others to have a pretty good understanding of what is being said. Sure, sometimes misunderstandings arise and further explanations are necessary, but as so far everyone (including those who disagree, like you) got the gist of what was said, I don't think this particular situation demands them.

Also, an important point seems to be this:
In one place you are speaking of balance, but in the next place you come up with absolutes like "personal conversations are not appropriate, period". That's contradictory and required clarification, which I think you gave now.
Do I get you right now, that you actually don't mean it as an absolute 'no-no'? (That would change your initial statement a lot!)

You take offence at Jackal's suggestion that you are taking things out of context, but IMHO the only way you could interpret this sentence as an absolute would be disregarding the rest of the post:

Originally Posted by Jackal

(...) When posting, ask yourself if you're writing in response to the thread topic or a subsequent related post or if you're simply addressing your post TO someone for personal enjoyment. If the latter, then use some discretion about whether you're actually making a positive contribution. (...) The idea of an isolated AG blog thread is perfectly valid, but there is no need or reason to have a variety of blog threads just to record everything you do and think about everything every day, or to respond to others doing the same (see #1).(...)This kind of perpetual group-navel-gazing just means yet another thread about yourselves. Needless to say, that's not the only topic worth discussing, (...) Again, not because of some Puritanical standard, but because it's a personal dialogue by its very nature, and personal conversations are not appropriate, period. As always, a few harmless remarks here and there are fine (...)

(all emboldenings mine)

Originally Posted by BoyToy

Anyone who thinks CC has become less special to them (and I might belong to that group), will start wondering why that is.
But it is only one theory that it has become less special to them because of personal/sex/silly-threads.
My theory is, that it is because there simply aren't enough 'interesting' new topics coming up. I don't think the personal/sex/silly-threads and posts are that numerous that they would easily manage to suppress those other 'interesting' threads from the first page - if those threads would be there. What you and the people see (namely, majority of posts being personal/sex/silly) is the symptom, not the cause. It's all relative.

Yes, it's a likely theory. It's also doesn't invalidate anything said by Jackal, because, as I already explained,

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

Nobody argues either one is the direct cause of another - they were in fact both presented as parts of a bigger problem.

It's unimportant which is the cause and which is the symptom - they are interwinted and both cause people drifting away from the forums.

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by BoyToy

I don't see anything generally wrong about personal conversation in public.

I don't either... as long as it doesn't exclude people from talking about the topic at hand.

It's like having two people talking about personal issues in a panel at a sci-fi convention. The people wanting to talk about "The Role of Women in Science Fiction" are going to be rather annoyed with the two people chatting in the corner, "So, did you ever buy that red dress you wanted?" "Oh, yeah, it's so cool, it's got this neat pattern..." They'd probably tell them to "take it outside". If you think of a thread as being like a panel, there you go.

Now, people might offer personal anecdotes related to the topic, or tease each other about things related to the topic, or address each other about the topic in ways related to what they know about each other... but they're still talking *about* the topic, and not excluding everyone else.

And if you think of a forum as being a convention where there's a couple spots for free-form partying, but most of the place is taken up by panels of some kind... another analogy for you.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[lostwolfe]

Originally Posted by jeysie

yet, when i put it in off-topic, i want the thread to stay on topic about the movie... i don't want it to suddenly turn into a tangent of private in-jokes and discussions and i find myself excluded from my own thread.

that's the point where you [or a moderator] needs to step in and gently nudge. but /gently./ [this isn't rapping the people involved over the knuckles. [if they keep offending, that's different, of course.]

something along the lines of --> "hey folks, while this is all pretty hilarious, perhaps we could go back to talking about the movie...?" [this, naturally, isn't the best example, but this is what i mean in essence.]

i do understand and concur with you that having to do it /repeatedly/ is a little frustrating, but hopefully with the gentle nudges, that sort of thing will happen less often.

in point of fact, i like your idea, for what it's worth. maybe the best way to do it is to have "unmoderated off topic" in which people can derail threads all they like and then have "moderated off topic" [or something to that effect] where things shouldn't spiral quite so badly.