[Sughly]

Originally Posted by fov

I wonder if the live actors play a part in this? If it were an illustration of the character, even with voice acting, it might be easier to forgive the over-the-top performances. But when you see actual people doing it, you realize how exaggerated the acting is...

Yeah I think you've got a good point here. If the game were to have the same look as GK1 I think most of us would have been at least a little more forgiving of Grace. I hope for the character's sake that people are right about her change over the series and this is a just a periodic low point of her arc.

I do digress though. As a first time player of the game I'm quite intrigued by the whole werewolf mythology (and also from recently seeing The Wolfman at the cinema). I'm also happy to be back to playing a more level headed Gabe .

Oh and as for the Smith's thing, @pointandcliklover: I know exactly what you mean about them and the Broken Sword connection. The two are just like Dwayne and whats-her-face (Pearl?), the tourists. I cracked up at the husband's reaction to her before they left ("oh, she just does this sometimes", pulling her away like some mental patient). And is it me or did he accidentally refer to her as 'mother' halfway through the conversation...? I think poor old Emil has some issues.

[Fantasysci5]

I believe calling a significant other as "mother" or "father" is a really old fashioned way to refer to each other, so he didn't mess up the line or anything.

[Sughly]

Originally Posted by Fantasysci5

I believe calling a significant other as "mother" or "father" is a really old fashioned way to refer to each other, so he didn't mess up the line or anything.

Ohhh ok, fair enough. Still sounds bizarre (I for one can't see myself calling my significant other mother), but it makes sense towards the old fashioned peoples I suppose. Kind of. Ok it doesn't make any sense still, but neither does a lot of 'old fashioned' ideas .

[Little Writer]

Finished chapter two last night, by the way. Rittersberg is a fun town to roam around in, though if I have to watch Grace putting on her coat one more time, I'll scream! (Yeah, I know I can just click and skip the scene).

Did you notice they never actually open the library door from the inside? Grace magically appears inside and we see her pushing against the door as if she's closing it. When Gerde appears, she also already inside: if she were really that upset, she would've screamed out as soon as she saw Grace, not first close the door behind her It's the same with other doors: the town hall and the dungeon.

I hate it when Grace closes the closet

Spoiler:

after picking up the key, because you have to open it again to get out.

Bert Hinchman as mayor Habermas. I know it probably has to do with continuity in the videos, but if someone keeps asking you questions about

Spoiler:

a certain file, then please keep the file at hand instead of always closing it and putting it down again and then saying "I don't know, let's see".

Kay Kuter returns! He looks both scary and likeable.

The Smiths are Judith Drake and Bruce Ed Morrow. Drake is still making movies, but Morrow has sadly passed on. I've seen him as Father Rice in 3rd Rock.

I've noticed old people calling each other ma and pa here plenty of times. I think it's weird as well, but the explanation might be that it's just a way to refer to each other when talking to their children, and then after the kids grow up and move out, it kinda sticks.

What's up with Grace suddenly having

Spoiler:

visions

? A bit too convenient, don't you think? Gabriel as well, in the opening movie.

I miss a "save" function between the chapters.

Reading the books is interesting during a first playthrough, but after a while it gets boring.

I think I spotted a goof: when Grace

Spoiler:

writes her letter to Gabriel and adds the books to the envelope, the address is already written on it, even though she still has to ask Gerde for it. And how come she knows the zip code for Münich?

[Sughly]

Yeah I do have to say, I hope these visions have a good explanation. They do seem extremely convenient. But I won't comment further and wait for the remainder of the story .

[DaveyB]

Interesting the varied opinions on chapter 2. Personally, I love the way the background and story of the Schattenjäger and werewolves are drawn out. Slow? Sure, but that doesn't bother me if the story is well told. To have a chapter of significant length with (in effect) not a single puzzle is a risky thing to do, but Jane Jensen manages it amazingly well. I also remain impressed by how well the various historical and werewolf theory threads are draw together later in the game, but I won't say any more about that now

My opinion on Grace in GK2 goes very much towards that of Andrea & Coyote AG - I think people aren't making enough allowances for her situation at the start of GK2. She hadn't only left school, by the time of GK2, she'd effectively abandoned her whole previous life and the expectations her family had for her. Why? Because what she experienced at the end of GK1 had made her decide that the role of Schattenjäger was something worth using her skills to help (and her feelings for Gaby maybe too ). Remember she'd almost been killed at the end of GK1 - that sort of thing does affect people! And it was only thanks to Gaby that this happened.

And what's her reward at the start of GK2? To be snubbed, ignored, and left to manage Gaby's bookshop in New Orleans while he lives the life of the Schattenjäger and someone far less skilled (in her eyes at least) is entrusted to do the research. In her shoes, I think I'd be pretty furious too! Now this may be rather rushed in its potrayal in the game (there's already complaints that chapter 2 is slow - if more time was devoted to this issue, it'd be even more so!) and the actress may somewhat overdo things, but to say that how Grace acts isn't at all in character with how she is in GK1 is well overdoing it imho. Doesn't mean you shouldn't feel sorry for Gerde - of course you should & I have no doubt that was Jane Jensen's intention. Gracey has good reasons for being angry, but she's taking it out on the wrong person.

One thing that's noticeable is that both I, and Andrea (if my memory serves me correctly) played GK2 before GK1, and so didn't have the preconceptions about how Gracey "should" be behaving. I remember just being slightly puzzled when Gracey was being snotty & bitchy to Gerde about just what her problem was . I do think there's a parallel between comments here & the reaction to April Ryan in Dreamfall after The Longest Journey - there are some people who just want characters to stay the same and not develop. Personally I feel Jane Jensen & Ragnar Tornquist both got it fundamentally right with the way they had the characters develop, though with some flaws (including Joanne Takahashi rather over-egging the acting).

Originally Posted by fov

It's not just her behavior with Gerde. She's very condescending to the Smiths when they come to the door

As is Gerde - I don't think she manages more than 2 words as she's trying too hard not to laugh. If you had 2 people come to your door behaving as the Smiths were, I think you might be patronising too

Originally Posted by fov

and she's overly nice (in a fake way) to the mayor and Herr Huber when she wants their help. I think the writing is fine; it's the actress's portrayal that's way overdone.

Think that's very harsh - nothing wrong there that I saw. One thing with the live actors in GK2 is the slightly overlong pauses at the end of each scene before the next dialogue option comes up - I think that can give a bad impression, but nothing much the actors could do about it (it's often a problem with Gaby too). I presume it was either a technology problem or bad directing.

Actually, Grace's German communication with the people in Rittersberg comes over very well - despite it being her (as far as we know) first visit to Germany, she's tried to learn German & attempts to communicate with the locals in German, and acts genuinely grateful to those who offer to speak to her in English. This is in stark contrast to Gaby (playing the classic "English-speaking tourist" role ) who, despite having lived in Bayern for over a year, hasn't bothered to learn more than about 3 words of German & expects everyone to speak to him in English (or just doesn't bother speaking to people if he doesn't think they will).

[DaveyB]

One amusing mini-puzzle from chapter 2 was the post office. Now I've managed to get my German ex, my fluent German-speaking wife, and my (over 70 now, only English-speaking) mother to play adventures and all 3 are/were fans of Gabriel Knight too. As I reported previously, I played the game with a friend originally, and so saw all three of them (seperately) playing GK2 (GK1 & 3 I played with my ex, recently replayed GK3 with my wife as it had been 10yrs for me - I let her work out the motorbike puzzle for herself though

Anyway, as far as the Post Office was concerned:

Spoiler:

When I gave the letter to the woman, listened to her answer, I "used" my wallet on her without even thinking. As did my German ex. As did my German-speaking wife. But I saw my mother battle with it for a good 10 minutes being mystified why, when she kept leaving the post office, she still had the package I can't remember if I gave her some help in the end Would be interesting to hear if anyone else had similar experiences - it's a very nicely-done little bit of the game.

If anyone wants any of the German dialogue from day 2 translated, let me know & I'll see what I can do.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by DaveyB

One thing that's noticeable is that both I, and Andrea (if my memory serves me correctly) played GK2 before GK1, and so didn't have the preconceptions about how Gracey "should" be behaving. I remember just being slightly puzzled when Gracey was being snotty & bitchy to Gerde about just what her problem was . I do think there's a parallel between comments here & the reaction to April Ryan in Dreamfall after The Longest Journey - there are some people who just want characters to stay the same and not develop. Personally I feel Jane Jensen & Ragnar Tornquist both got it fundamentally right with the way they had the characters develop, though with some flaws (including Joanne Takahashi rather over-egging the acting).

Really interesting parallel, DaveyB. I never thought of it myself, but now that you mention it, I think it's spot-on

And yes, I played GK2 before GK1. From the snippets of her past that Grace lets through during The Beast Within - leaving school, risking everything during the last case, choosing to stay on board -, I always thought that her behavior was perfectly understandable and logical, and when I finally played Sins of the Fathers and saw first-hand what pivotal role she played during the Voodoo Murders case, I can't help but think that she had every right to be royally pissed off.

Actually, Grace's German communication with the people in Rittersberg comes over very well - despite it being her (as far as we know) first visit to Germany, she's tried to learn German & attempts to communicate with the locals in German, and acts genuinely grateful to those who offer to speak to her in English. This is in stark contrast to Gaby (playing the classic "English-speaking tourist" role ) who, despite having lived in Bayern for over a year, hasn't bothered to learn more than about 3 words of German & expects everyone to speak to him in English (or just doesn't bother speaking to people if he doesn't think they will).

Another thing I wholeheartedly agree with. I don't know if our English or American friends can understand it, but for our non-English Europeans, even the ones who can perfectly talk or write in English, is frustrating and annoying when someone refuses to lear our languages and stubbornly uses English even after years of living here. On the other hand, when someone learns even just a bit of Italian - I'm thinking, for example, of Daniel Day Lewis, who also lives in Italy, in Tuscany -, I think it's a great sign of humility

[Sughly]

Omg omg omg, Daniel Day-Lewis - There will be blood. So awesome. Ehhhh but I digress...

I would think that having played GK2 would actually make you more susceptible to defending the Grace you know better. But I've given my two cents and will shutup about it now .

Bring on chapter 3!

[AndreaDraco83]

Everyone's done with Chapter Two?

On a side note:

Originally Posted by Sughly

Omg omg omg, Daniel Day-Lewis - There will be blood

Indeed. His best performance to date, and a masterpiece of a movie.

[Intense Degree]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

And yes, I played GK2 before GK1. From the snippets of her past that Grace lets through during The Beast Within - leaving school, risking everything during the last case, choosing to stay on board -, I always thought that her behavior was perfectly understandable and logical, and when I finally played Sins of the Fathers and saw first-hand what pivotal role she played during the Voodoo Murders case, I can't help but think that she had every right to be royally pissed off.

Maybe the "which-one-you-played-first" question explains it!

I imagine that everyone agrees that Grace had good reason to be very frustrated and angry over the situation she found herself in (Gabe has left her in?) but my issue is the way it is expressed, which I find to be out of character.

Anyway, I'll take a leaf out of Sughly's book and shut up about it now!

EDIT: And yes, i'm done with chapter 2 and raring to get on with 3!

[CoyoteAG]

Originally Posted by Intense Degree

Maybe the "which-one-you-played-first" question explains it!

I imagine that everyone agrees that Grace had good reason to be very frustrated and angry over the situation she found herself in (Gabe has left her in?) but my issue is the way it is expressed, which I find to be out of character.

Anyway, I'll take a leaf out of Sughly's book and shut up about it now!

EDIT: And yes, i'm done with chapter 2 and raring to get on with 3!

I played GK1 first and I seem to be much more forgiving to Grace than some on here. Although I didn't play GK1 with voices so I don't know if that makes any difference.

I'm definitely ready for Chapter 3. The more Van Glower, the better!

[AndreaDraco83]

CHAPTER THREE



Have you ever heard of the Black Wolf?

[Fien]

Sorry for the belated response.

The opening movie of chapter 2 is my least favorite one. (I’m going to be negative, so let me add that IMO chapter 1 is fine, 3 is okay, while 4, 5 and 6 are absolutely marvelous. I don’t care for the hostile scene in the bookstore. Owner had an accident...gee, how unfunny and cliche can you get. And concerning Grace’s far too aggressive attitude towards Gerde, my guess is Jane Jensen felt that digging in the past and reading books would be dry and boring without some emotional stuff going on. But why the dirty looks at Gerde and heavy breathing just before the Smiths arrive? Grace had her way, she gained access to the library, got the address to send her package to. She’s actually panting, like she’s getting all worked up and is about to punch Gerde in the face. Makes no sense and it jars with the looks the two girls exchange over the Smiths. I agree that the acting isn’t good, and I do blame the director because Grace is not the only actor who makes my toes curl. (Kommissar Leber in chapter 3, huuuuu!!) And Mrs Smith’s shrill “how exciting!” hurt my ears.

But apart from the opening/ending movies, I thoroughly enjoyed chapter two. The first time I played The Beast I was far too immersed in the story to pay much attention to details and minor flaws. I love replaying the game and the annoyances other people have mentioned didn’t spoil my fun. BTW, Herr Habermass must be clairvoyant, because he talks about “your Schattenjaeger” when Grace merely told him in German she was on holiday (Urlaub).

After the GK1 playthrough I was hoping to spot Dad’s snake painting somewhere on the Schloss walls, or at the very least in the bookshop. No such luck. But I did recognize Wolfgang’s old phone number, which by now I know almost by heart.

I loved the creepy, threatening way Herr Huber said the word “werewolf” twice. And the looks he gave Grace without answering some of her questions. He’s quite a character, one of the better NPCs, and I find the actor convincing.

I noticed for the first time there are claw marks on the dungeon window. Another detail I quite like: Grace’s comment on Ludwig’s portrait is different before and after her conversation about Ludwig with Huber. The same thing was true for the sign in the zoo in chapter 1. You get 3 different comments before and after Gabe talked to Thomas and Herr Doktor.

What is that on Gabe, when he wakes up in the opening movie of chapter 3... could it be swan’s down with black tips...?

Starting chapter 3 tonight.

[danigar]

I'm ready for chapter 3 too!

It was interesting to see all the different opinions on Grace's attitude and I think everything has been said... like Andreas and Davey, I for one could really feel her frustration and anger and well she just exploded on poor Gerde, besides I think that we really didn't get to know her that well in GK1 to say that it's completely out of character.... I think yeah we met the good, scholarly, responsible, quiet side... but after all that happened and her decisions there was a lot that we haven't seen on her, although yeah the acting may not have been very good but I'm very forgiving on these flaws when the game has me all immersed and interested and with characters so rich.

Anyway here are some last random thoughts

@Fien: I thought the phone number Grace gives the professor is not the same that Gabriel is given in GK1. (I have it written down from my last GK1 playthrough)... I was just going to point that out

Also about the wardrobe... if it wasn't there in GK1 does this mean that the secret passage was built when Gabriel moved there? I had thought that it was something that Wolfgang was using with Gerde. Or it was there before but only now Gabe decided to hide the entrance with the wardrobe? Or did he put it without realizing there was an entrance at all...

And about the diary :

Spoiler:

well so if the tomb doesn't have anything to do then my only guess is that she just looked for a diary of whoever was around in the 1700's, since the dates appear in the cover of the diaries.

[Fien]

Originally Posted by danigar

@Fien: I thought the phone number Grace gives the professor is not the same that Gabriel is given in GK1. (I have it written down from my last GK1 playthrough)... I was just going to point that out

I replayed that part. You're absolutely right! Alzheimer Lite strikes again. I wrote down the GK1 number to check before I started playing chapter 2 and afterwards thought I'd checked it when I hadn't. The only thing the two numbers have in common is Germany's international code: 49.

And about the diary :

Spoiler:

well so if the tomb doesn't have anything to do then my only guess is that she just looked for a diary of whoever was around in the 1700's, since the dates appear in the cover of the diaries.

In the novel, Grace spends hours looking for the journal.

[CoyoteAG]

Originally Posted by Fien

I replayed that part. You're absolutely right! Alzheimer Lite strikes again. I wrote down the GK1 number to check before I started playing chapter 2 and afterwards thought I'd checked it when I hadn't. The only thing the two numbers have in common is Germany's international code: 49.



In the novel, Grace spends hours looking for the journal.

Thank goodness they didn't make the game like the novel.

[PhoenixWrong]

I'm late to the party having just finished up GK1, but I finished chapter 1 of Beast Within.

Spoiler:

I hate the actor who portrays Gabriel. I don't know if it is writing or acting, but he is a completely different person. Gone is his devil-may-care attitude and messy hair. Now he is wimpy and has fish lips.

Grace is pretty good though, and the beginning of chapter 2 was really funny.

It was funny at the beginning when Gabriel says about the murder "That's horrible!" than the man replys "Ja it is bad" or something like that, like it did not bother him at all.

The town is beautiful, I love the architecture.

[Sughly]

Originally Posted by PhoenixWrong

I'm late to the party having just finished up GK1, but I finished chapter 1 of Beast Within.

Spoiler:

I hate the actor who portrays Gabriel. I don't know if it is writing or acting, but he is a completely different person. Gone is his devil-may-care attitude and messy hair. Now he is wimpy and has fish lips.

Haha, that's a pretty funny observation. I would say though I'm warming to the actor quickly enough. He's no Tim Curry but I believe in him as Gabe enough now.

[Little Writer]

Originally Posted by Fien

What is that on Gabe, when he wakes up in the opening movie of chapter 3... could it be swan’s down with black tips...?

I always thought it was the grass he'd been lying in?