Adventure Gamers - Forums

noknowncure - 03 September 2014 02:04 PM

From my POV, this is a spectacular misreading of the Simon character.  I’m most familiar with the first two games, so am speaking from experience from those, but Simon was a lazy, curmudgeonly, vindictive misanthrope, but he was likeable to the audience, partly because it’s fun to be rude to people in a way we can’t always be in the real world, but importantly, because his sarcasm and cheek was funny - also, his fish out of water status, general uselessness at ‘sorcery’, the lack of respect he received from the majority of other characters and that fact that we repeatedly see him suffer in one way or another, are all factors that lower his status and make his sarcasm more palatable, as he’s - usually - ‘punching up,’ or has been through enough misery for us to allow him to occasionally punch down. 

The 4th and 5th games were horribly unfunny, which is ultimately why Simon became so unlikeable.  There was nothing to take the edge off.  That emphasises the importance of a strong comic sensibility - there’s more to writing a loveable misanthrope than, “Character is sarcastic.”

As for, “Screw this, I’m going home,” trying to get home was a major motivating factor for his actions.  The second game in particular is essentially, “Screw this, I want to go home.”

Almost everything he did was out of selfishness and, given the opportunity to insult, deride or harm someone, particularly if they’d annoyed or slighted him, he’d seize it.

That’s little a bit extreme. Again, take a look at when he meets Swampy. He could simply walk out but instead pretends he’s there for his birthday and eats the awful swamp stew. If you try to steal his net he says ‘I couldn’t rob him of his livelihood’.

We should also probably point out that there is some degree of choice here - much of the vindictiveness you mention comes from dialogue, where most of the time you can choose to be nice. Often the meanest option is simply British humour, which tends to be relatively dry and demeaning. If the later games interpreted this as misanthropy, it’s because they were made by Germans (and we can’t blame them for that!).

I would also say that everything every protagonist does in any adventure game is out of selfishness, whether saving the princess, stealing the jewels or finding Atlantis.

For a real misanthrope, see Ceville or Quest for Infamy. Simon is (or was) no comparison.

Oscar - 03 September 2014 10:06 PM

Again, take a look at when he meets Swampy. He could simply walk out but instead pretends he’s there for his birthday and eats the awful swamp stew. If you try to steal his net he says ‘I couldn’t rob him of his livelihood’.

See, you’re using a specifically extreme - and purposefully designed as such - example to establish a rule.  The Swampling is basically pathos incarnate.  When we first meet him, he’s the absolute bottom rung, but remains hopelessly optimistic, which is always a heart-rending combination.  The character stands in stark contrast to the majority of the other NPC characters, in that EVEN Simon pities the Swampling. 

Do you not recognise the irony in the “Livelihood” line? A creature so tragic that even a callous, kleptomaniacal Adventure Game Protagonist won’t take the belongings he requires to ply his appalling, vomit inducing trade that results in a severe dearth of friends.

Simon eats the awful swamp stew - and promptly regurgitates said concoction - as a means to an end, ultimately sending the poor little Swampling off to work on his special day, heart filled with misplaced hope that he’s finally found a pal, when in fact, Simon’s just wants the little darling to clear off, leaving our hero free to collect the swamp flower and run off.

The second game even makes a joke about this, with the tragic idea that the Swampling has been miserably waiting for his birthday guest to return.  Also, for comedic contrast, the character that once had nothing is now a success and appears to have it all, but still deeply unhappy because of the unfulfilled promise of that chance meeting with Simon.  Pathos.

Oscar - 03 September 2014 10:06 PM

We should also probably point out that there is some degree of choice here - much of the vindictiveness you mention comes from dialogue, where most of the time you can choose to be nice.

There are plenty of non-avoidable examples of Simon’s cruel streak - the second games Beachcomber springs to mind - and biting wit, but I’d argue that, usually, the bland ‘polite’ responses are merely there as contrast to the funny stuff. They’re pretty much there to say, “This is how a ‘normal’ adventure is supposed to go…” while the more acerbic options are there to showcase the real character of the game.

Oscar - 03 September 2014 10:06 PM

I would also say that everything every protagonist does in any adventure game is out of selfishness, whether saving the princess, stealing the jewels or finding Atlantis.

This isn’t true at all. Plenty of Adventures involve the protagonist attempting to save the world or individuals. Simon is literally just trying to get back home - if his actions happen to save the world, so be it, but that’s not his aim.  If there was a button he could press that would instantly return him home without any effort - even if it would, say, nuke the fantasy world - I can’t imagine Simon would hesitate.

Oscar - 03 September 2014 10:06 PM

For a real misanthrope, see Ceville or Quest for Infamy. Simon is (or was) no comparison.

Apples and Oranges.  Ceville’s specifically a fairytale villain, so plays up to and parodies our expectations of what that entails - Simon’s a jaded modern day kid/teenager and the writers are playing with the juxtaposition of his 90’s attitude within the setting of a simpler, more innocent fantasy world framework.  Ceville needs to be villainous for the premise, Simon doesn’t necessarily, but is funnier for being so.

I’d also argue that, for all his talk of evil deeds, Ceville is ultimately fairly tame.  The writing and humour in the first Simon games is, to my mind, the more rebellious and caustic.

This looks a bit too much like a stoner-kid. Maybe it’s the eyes. Simon is intelligent, at least he was and I don’t get that impression here. I thought the drawings on page 3 were perfect - can you go back to those?

You guys can’t be serious!! Why are you so annoying with those minor things, like how his face should look like? And beard, eyes? Who cares?! There is so many much more important factors in ags, than a face of the main protagonist.
WrongTarget, you and your team is doing an excellent work, but you’ll need to stop with this silly forum cooperation.All what I saw so far, looks amazing and I’m sure that if   you’ll contnue with the same style, I have no doubt that this will be great Adventure game.The best thing for this game would be, if you could include some soundtracks from original Simion the Sorcerer.(since you’re friends with Adventure soft, this option can stay open I guess)
I wish you good luck!

I’m really looking forward to this new game! The latest version of Simon looks just fine to me.  I assume that facial expression isn’t constant and it changes with regard to what he is hearing or seeing.

Can you give us any more information with regard to locations? Are they made up of scenes typically found in Simon 1 like the deep woods and mountainous snowy landscapes with dwarves practising in the fields of magic and potions, or perhaps trolls protecting bridges and crossings?

I look forward to your further posts on how you are getting on with the project. 

The original game was a big part of my childhood.

DarkEye - 15 September 2014 12:00 PM

You guys can’t be serious!! Why are you so annoying with those minor things, like how his face should look like? And beard, eyes? Who cares?!

Agree with this, I do not see any problems with his eyes or beard, everything looks just fine, but everyone who visits this forums knows that adventure gamers can be very nitpicky about certain things.

  DarkEye - 15 September 2014 04:00 PM

  You guys can’t be serious!! Why are you so annoying with those minor things, like how his face should look like? And beard, eyes? Who cares?!

yep, I agree. so nitpicky about little things. If this game is anything like the first two Simon games, no matter how Simon looks, it will be a great game. I thought Wilbur from Book of Unwritten Tales was horrible looking, but, after a little while, I developed a great fondness for him.

Renacimiento - 16 September 2014 07:14 PM

A little clarification… I don’t want to be a fussy/ picky or hateful, not that I have any power desicion is just my personal opinion basing on that drawing.

I can understand what you meant by that.But If we’re gonna argue about every little detail, after story beasts reveal some progress to us, than this project has a very slim chances to ever see a daylight.I hope that most of the characters from SimontheSorcerer1 will be included in this game,(sordid, calypso, trolls, giants, dwarves…) altrough if swampy will be voiced like the one from Simon 4, than don’t even bother with him.That was really painful for ears.I wish that I could have the same feeling with that game, as I had with the original…but that is long gone.Nostalgia is a disease…