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Puzzle Difficulty/Design
A few random, disconnected thoughts on the matter.
3) Obviously experience is a huge problem. Trying to come up with a puzzle that’ll be satisfying for both people who’ve been playing for 25 years and newcomers is like trying to come up with a maths problem that’ll be intellectually stimulating and doable for both middle-schoolers and grad students. It seems to be an impossible task.
you actually hit a very good point,i agree that while there are hopes for greater approach with kickstarter ,there is also ‘the walking dead’ ttg . I see there might be a promise with the rate kickstaters rewarding taking place ,yea LSLR was like some kid got a copyright/doll for some fancy child dream and blew it ,Broken Sword was like guessing the water and BA took some attention that there are good adventure than those ttg producing (how I which they stop or get out of the Adventure genre ,there should be some ttg haters thread round here) so there might be something even at the worst we hadn’t encounter for a some certain while with the quality of adventures . hopes!
I don’t know why people underestimate young people. WHen I was in elementary school/middle school, I enjoyed Monkey Island 2 and Day of the Tentacle. Just because something is challenging and may not give immediate gratification, doesn’t mean young people are incapable of it. The solution isn’t to dumb something down so much that a lobotomy patient can handle it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with continuing to try until you accomplish a difficult task. Besides, nowadays, you have a walkthrough at your disposal at all times, which make all adventure games doable if necessary. I still feel like the keep trying approach is better though. Hell, my first NES game was Ninja Gaiden, when I was 6… It took me a looong time to get to the final guy in that game.
I don’t think Kuru was underestimating the young , but its the product that attract the people from whether old or new ,so a game like Obduction you cant not expect both to react to it the same way , old adventurer will deal with it as another Myst clone from the Myst makers ,new will have the experience of there life (for instance) and for cyan is the put this game for both but at the end it might not satisfy the hunger of the old gamers for it nor the new experience for the new comers ,its impossible task as said , I wish new comers would learn adventure gaming the way we did . but again it all what is available . or then there would be two market like music underground and commercial and we don’t want that to happen.
Myst type adventure games have always been much, much harder than object based adventure games. With inventory based games, you are inside of a relatively small sandbox. With most Myst games, it could feel like an insurmountable challenge.
The Grim Fandango Puzzle Document is a fascinating read.
http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2008/GrimPuzzleDoc_small.pdf.zip
An adventure game is nothing more than a good story set with engaging puzzles that fit seamlessly in with the story and the characters, and looks and sounds beautiful.
Roberta Williams
Besides, nowadays, you have a walkthrough at your disposal at all times, which make all adventure games doable if necessary.
I don’t agree with Walkthroughs, but thats a seperate topic. Walkthroughs are a failure of the developer to design good puzzles and one reason why people complain about games being too easy is because they sit throught the entire game with one in front of them.
An adventure game is nothing more than a good story set with engaging puzzles that fit seamlessly in with the story and the characters, and looks and sounds beautiful.
Roberta Williams
I don’t know why people underestimate young people…There is absolutely nothing wrong with continuing to try until you accomplish a difficult task.
Yes and no. The generally accepted pedagogical principle if you work with children (as I do) is that tasks should be challenging but achievable. That’s the tricky issue adventure games have got to deal with. Make it challenging enough to get people interested, but not so difficult that they give up. If puzzles *regularly* take hours to solve or get people so stuck that they have to leave the game (e.g. overnight) then I’d say the difficulty level is too high. Immersion level is lost & it becomes a puzzle game & not an adventure - I don’t like puzzles for their own sake & I don’t think I’m alone there. Puzzles are there to drive the story forward.
Yes, a walkthrough is an option, but for most people there’s no enjoyment in constantly having to look up a walkthrough - I don’t mind doing it once or twice over the course of a game, but I don’t want to be constantly doing it. I’m sure that’s true of the majority of players.
WHen I was in elementary school/middle school, I enjoyed Monkey Island 2 and Day of the Tentacle.
You might have been an amazing genius as a child but it doesn’t mean everyone is. The Spitting contest in MI2 isn’t my idea of a good puzzle, rather as far as I’m concerned, an example of why people stopped playing adventure games.
Besides, nowadays, you have a walkthrough at your disposal at all times, which make all adventure games doable if necessary.
I don’t agree with Walkthroughs, but thats a seperate topic. Walkthroughs are a failure of the developer to design good puzzles and one reason why people complain about games being too easy is because they sit throught the entire game with one in front of them.
I don’t like them either. I am simply saying that if the gamer is very young and gets frustrated for too long, there is easy access to walkthroughs/forums to get them unstuck. They were not anywhere near as available when I was younger(and games were harder), and I still had fun. I simply don’t believe that dumbing down games is necessary, even for young gamers.
I don’t know why people underestimate young people…There is absolutely nothing wrong with continuing to try until you accomplish a difficult task.
Yes and no. The generally accepted pedagogical principle if you work with children (as I do) is that tasks should be challenging but achievable. That’s the tricky issue adventure games have got to deal with. Make it challenging enough to get people interested, but not so difficult that they give up. If puzzles *regularly* take hours to solve or get people so stuck that they have to leave the game (e.g. overnight) then I’d say the difficulty level is too high. Immersion level is lost & it becomes a puzzle game & not an adventure - I don’t like puzzles for their own sake & I don’t think I’m alone there. Puzzles are there to drive the story forward.
Yes, a walkthrough is an option, but for most people there’s no enjoyment in constantly having to look up a walkthrough - I don’t mind doing it once or twice over the course of a game, but I don’t want to be constantly doing it. I’m sure that’s true of the majority of players.
WHen I was in elementary school/middle school, I enjoyed Monkey Island 2 and Day of the Tentacle.
You might have been an amazing genius as a child but it doesn’t mean everyone is. The Spitting contest in MI2 isn’t my idea of a good puzzle, rather as far as I’m concerned, an example of why people stopped playing adventure games.
That is where we differ then. I wasn’t a genius. I simply didn’t give up. To this day, I remember going to summer camp(tennis) and talking about the puzzles and trying to figure out a way forward in Monkey Island 2.
I played board games against my father and grandfather and they did not let me win. I had to earn it. My best friend played in tournaments in ping pong and I beat him 3 times out of 1000(at best). The fun is in the challenge. That is how you get better at things.
Whether a puzzle is well designed or not is not debated. Some puzzles are poorly designed. That is artificial challenge.
Also, I do not feel puzzles are about driving the story forward. Honestly, to me, 99% of adventure games(and all pc games) have garbage stories. I have incredibly high standards. I think compared to even poorly written tv shows or movies end up being better than even the best written “stories” in pc games.
I think, if anything, PC games(adventure in particular), can have very funny/witty responses, but again, these are few and far between to me.
With this in mind, I hope you can understand why the puzzles are pretty much the only reason I play adventure games. Some people may enjoy the stories in these games, but overall I find them repetitive, unoriginal, uninspired, and forced(especially the humor).
You might have been an amazing genius as a child but it doesn’t mean everyone is. The Spitting contest in MI2 isn’t my idea of a good puzzle, rather as far as I’m concerned, an example of why people stopped playing adventure games.
I actually think the spitting contest an example of a perfect puzzle.
It gives you clues as how to do it like the subtle hint of the womans scarf blowing when the wind picks up and when you try picking up the flag and he said “Cheat while they are watching” hints at a distraction part
MI 2 is also the perfect example of giving you a large area to explore and tons of stuff to do at the same time so if you are stuck on one puzzle there is always something else to work on. It’s also one of the few games with a difficulty level.
All in all the near perfect adventure game.
An adventure game is nothing more than a good story set with engaging puzzles that fit seamlessly in with the story and the characters, and looks and sounds beautiful.
Roberta Williams
“The generally accepted pedagogical principle if you work with children (as I do) is that tasks should be challenging but achievable. “
It depends on the age of the child and what subject we are talking about.
I don’t consider an 11-13 year old to be a child. It is more young adult than child.
Additionally, for something such as schoolwork, then sure, what you say makes sense. If it is entertainment, then I think it is completely different.
For entertainment, people will seek out what they wish. Do they want to be intellectually challenged or do they want vegetation entertainment? I was always the type that preferred to lose fairly than to be given a handicap. It completely ruins the fun for me and always has.
Additionally, it is important to learn how to handle difficult challenges. The ability to walk away, mull over a problem, and then continue to take different approaches, is important. In a dexterity game, it is important to keep practicing until you beat whatever challenge there is. If you get into the habit of feeding people just what they can beat, then it is possible that they give up if they don’t have the ability to conquer something on their own after a short period of time.
I host my own board game group and luckily, I have found a group of like minded people. I read on the main board game website about groups that have people who refuse to play games that they don’t win at. The game isn’t about winning! It is about learning, experiencing, and adapting to win next time! I have been a gamer long enough that I win a good 65-70% of games that my group plays(3-4 gamers mostly), but it is the times that I lose that stick with me… I think things over and can’t wait to try different approaches. Winning tends to be boring if it is easy.
You might have been an amazing genius as a child but it doesn’t mean everyone is. The Spitting contest in MI2 isn’t my idea of a good puzzle, rather as far as I’m concerned, an example of why people stopped playing adventure games.
I actually think the spitting contest an example of a perfect puzzle.
It gives you clues as how to do it like the subtle hint of the womans scarf blowing when the wind picks up and when you try picking up the flag and he said “Cheat while they are watching” hints at a distraction part
MI 2 is also the perfect example of giving you a large area to explore and tons of stuff to do at the same time so if you are stuck on one puzzle there is always something else to work on. It’s also one of the few games with a difficulty level.
All in all the near perfect adventure game.
It also had easy and hard puzzle modes, if I remember correctly… That would actually take effort though…and I hate to say it, but developers focus more on pretty art and expensive voice work nowadays than puzzles(Broken Age!!!!).
Voice work is such a waste of time and money, for something completely unessential. I realize I am in a minority here.
I have incredibly high standards. I think compared to even poorly written tv shows or movies end up being better than even the best written “stories” in pc games.
That’s one area where we’re different. I find most TV & movies garbage. I find much more interest in the better PC adventure stories to a lot of stuff on TV. Guess the interactivity is part of the reason for that.
With this in mind, I hope you can understand why the puzzles are pretty much the only reason I play adventure games. Some people may enjoy the stories in these games, but overall I find them repetitive, unoriginal, uninspired, and forced(especially the humor).
I can and do. But what I feel you largely forget or ignore (I read the Broken Age thread with interest) is that this is NOT true for most people. It’s a combination of the two aspects - for some maybe the story take precedence (and so The Walking Dead or Dreamfall) for others maybe the puzzles more (Myst & Riven maybe?). For a lot of people (including myself) it’s neither one extreme or the other - we can enjoy games of varying difficulties as long as the story is good. What I don’t understand to be honest, is why you play adventures at all? Why not puzzle games which then ARE just about difficult puzzles (presumably?).
My best friend played in tournaments in ping pong and I beat him 3 times out of 1000(at best). The fun is in the challenge. That is how you get better at things.
One thing you should try to accept is that maybe you aren’t/ weren’t typical of most children. I can assure you that most children do not want to play again and again and again a game which they are almost certain to lose. Maybe you should accept that what you want from adventures is not what the majority of us want.
I’ve had some contact with adventure games for about 20 years, (ETA: almost) exclusively from LA and their heirs to be precise. Started with watching my brother play, then using walkthroughs from gamer mags to learn beating the game by heart, then playing it for my friends like I was hosting a movie screening. As I grew up I became annoyed with needing help outside what the narrative provides, even hated having to use the new in-game hint systems. From my perspective as not entirely a n00b, Broken Age struck the right balance (reason why I’m reading these forums again. Apparently we had another post-count purge?) Fan demands for more frustration seem literally insane to me.
Interaction density though, that it surely needed more of.
I actually think the spitting contest an example of a perfect puzzle.
It gives you clues as how to do it like the subtle hint of the womans scarf blowing when the wind picks up and when you try picking up the flag and he said “Cheat while they are watching” hints at a distraction part
It’s been a bit of time since I played it I admit, but my memory tells me that the puzzle was extremely convoluted. That there were about 5 steps needed to solve it. Each time we thought, “Hah, finally managed it” only for another obstacle to be placed in the way. That’s not a perfect puzzle, rather just frustrating as progress is not rewarded. Yes, a couple of the steps had clues contained (such as the one you quote) but another couple of bits different. Or is it just my faulty memory 
MI 2 is also the perfect example of giving you a large area to explore and tons of stuff to do at the same time so if you are stuck on one puzzle there is always something else to work on.
Can’t argue with any of that though.
Or is it just my faulty memory
It’s your faulty memory.
By the time you reach the spitting contest puzzle, most players will have already bought and mixed drinks together from the Bloody Lip—if you’re experimenting with item combinations (as you should be—it’s an adventure game), you will have already made the green drink (which is the same color as the drink Largo gulps down before he hocks a huge loogie on the wall at the very beginning of the game. There’s even a friggin’ closeup of the gigantic gob of spit flying through the air. Not to mention Guybrush says “Boy, this stuff makes my spit thick,” every time you drink it. If that isn’t telegraphing a clue, I don’t know what is!)
Then there’s the fact that you need a distraction—that, again, is entirely told to you through the responses when you try and pick up the flags. The distraction is easy enough to figure out, if you’ve talked to the various characters on the island—you will already have heard the mailboat cannon fire, will have already bought a horn (which is the same as the one you see the mail guy using), and will have already tried to blow the horn (and seen/heard the result.)
The guy at the spitting contest mentions wondering if the mail had arrived in his dialogs, so that’s another clue pointing you to the horn/mailboat cannon. Once you blow the horn and they all turn, it’s a very simple matter to know you need to swap the flags at that point.
The trickiest part of the puzzle is realizing you need to time the spitting to the blowing of the wind to get that extra boost. That simply requires careful attention to detail in the surroundings, as well as experimentation (again, the staple of gameplay for this kind of adventure game.)
It’s a brilliant example of a very complex, but almost perfectly telegraphed and presented puzzle, that rewards both careful attention to detail as well as experimentation. It’s an amazing puzzle, that is supremely rewarding to figure out, when you first get it.
And also, as I recall—the puzzle is only that complex if you’re playing the game in its “Mega-Monkey” hard puzzle mode. There’s always the “Adventure-Lite” mode, for those who have “never played an adventure game before…[and are] scared.”
I believe in “Lite” mode you don’t do the spitting contest at all.
An adventure game is nothing more than a good story set with engaging puzzles that fit seamlessly in with the story and the characters, and looks and sounds beautiful.
Roberta Williams
I believe in “Lite” mode you don’t do the spitting contest at all.
Ah, fair enough. I don’t think I’ve actually played the lite mode since I was a kid, so I really don’t remember it well. I play the regular mode every few years though, so it’s pretty ingrained in my memory at this point.
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