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Puzzle Difficulty/Design
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What game is this?
I am really doubtful that people are really SO lost in a game world that they literally forget they’re playing a video game, so much so that pressing F5 or whatever completely ruins the experience. I understand wanting to maximize immersion, but that strikes me as a problem no one really actually has.
Yea, that’s for sure just an idiotic thing people say because they don’t like deaths and are grasping for some pseudo-logical reason to explain why deaths are objectively bad. However by the same token, the “there is no sense of danger or conflict in the story without the threat of death [even though I can save and restore anyway at any time]” argument is nonsense as well, and is just people who like deaths trying to find a logical reason why deaths are good. The debate is much ado about nothing.
Breaking immersion:
When you read a novel, does putting it down after you’ve read some break immersion? I’ve read the Dark Tower series by Stephen King several times in my life, but never all in one sitting. Just something I’m thinking of when I hear of “immersion breaking” in game deaths.
Putting down the story doesn’t break “immersion” for me.
Bt
Breaking immersion:
When you read a novel, does putting it down after you’ve read some break immersion? I’ve read the Dark Tower series by Stephen King several times in my life, but never all in one sitting.
Bt
(Fist to forehead) ,you are right on the path of the beams Sai.
this must be an adventure one day.
Breaking immersion:
When you read a novel, does putting it down after you’ve read some break immersion? I’ve read the Dark Tower series by Stephen King several times in my life, but never all in one sitting. Just something I’m thinking of when I hear of “immersion breaking” in game deaths.
Putting down the story doesn’t break “immersion” for me.
Bt
I’ve never read the Dark Tower series; reading is hard. But if it ever comes out in interactive movie form, I may give it a watch. I’d click-to-proceed the HELL out of that shit. 
I will point out that providing “fun” is not something that art necessarily has to do to be good. If we want games to be art, they’re not always going to be “fun”.
I’m going for brevity, perhaps a better word would’ve been “enjoyment”?
You’re saying you want to be allowed to be “careless” in the game without negative consequences. That is the same thing as what I paraphrased. I shouldn’t have to explain your thoughts back to you.
You’re confusing between two people. Also you’re confusing between the character and the player. I’m okay with the character being penalized for being careless in-game. I’m not okay with my being penalized for being careless when playing, in the real world.
Great thread idea!
What I remember most from the days of text adventures, is fighting with the parser. The times I had to try again just to find the correct wording that the game was looking for, or the times I got an “I don’t know how to [verb]” and similar responses… Not my fondest adventure game memories…[Continued over three posts]
I was going to write a long response on the subject myself, but then I read Tim’s elaborate 3 post response and realised it said everything I had to say on the subject, plus a bit more, so I will instead just refer to that and add that I totally agree on everything Tim wrote 
Edit: And finally getting to the end of this thread, I can now see that it has taken a completely different direction than expected, and now has very little to do with the original topic.
Sorry for being a bit late to the party
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
I actually disagree that it breaks immersion. Necessarily at least. I’ve rarely ever been so immersed in a game as in Deus Ex, for example. Many many games that require manual saving. Skyrim. If you claim those games aren’t immersive then I don’t know what to tell you.
By having to manually save, it forces you to be very mindful of what you are doing. It can enhance immersion in a way. You can’t just glaze over and sprint through a game, knowing that some invisible autosave will bail you out if anything bad happens. Manually saving a game is like taking a small moment to take in a deep breath and collect your thoughts right before you head into the unknown. It makes you have to listen to your senses whether something feels ominous. I like that. I am really doubtful that people are really SO lost in a game world that they literally forget they’re playing a video game, so much so that pressing F5 or whatever completely ruins the experience. I understand wanting to maximize immersion, but that strikes me as a problem no one really actually has.
Again, I’m not mad at checkpoints and auto-saving. But they can be used as a crutch the same way completely random unfair deaths can be (though that’s never a problem anymore). It’s nice to autosave every time you start a new chapter, but I think manually saving can be an effective way to keep you on your toes and keep your brain engaged. It’s not critical to good design but it’s not bad design either.
Exactly ... it’s just common sense that you save before doing something that’s really really dangerous.
That’s a lot better than the game not allowing anything to be dangerous. A bad guy is pointing a gun at you? Save! How hard is this?
Random deaths are a completely different matter that don’t exist anymore. But thinking that adventure game makers shouldn’t be allowed to have any deaths in their games without an auto-save feature is ludicrous.
You sound entitled. “I don’t wanna have to be good or think I just wanna WIN.” That’s a terrible foundation for good gaming.
For some reason you keep conflating the desire to progress in a game with a lack of thinking without explaining why. Why does a lack of death in a game stop any one puzzle from requiring thought to resolve?
You said this:
If you’re careless, the game punishes you by forcing you to replay a section. Replaying sections is boring. I don’t want a computer game to try and educate me about carelessness. I want to have fun.
Er… you might want to re-check your sources there.
I actually disagree that it breaks immersion. Necessarily at least. I’ve rarely ever been so immersed in a game as in Deus Ex, for example. Many many games that require manual saving. Skyrim. If you claim those games aren’t immersive then I don’t know what to tell you.
You have this habit of comparing completely different genres even when several explanations have been given as to why mechanics that work in one genre don’t in another.
Breaking immersion:
When you read a novel, does putting it down after you’ve read some break immersion? I’ve read the Dark Tower series by Stephen King several times in my life, but never all in one sitting. Just something I’m thinking of when I hear of “immersion breaking” in game deaths.
Putting down the story doesn’t break “immersion” for me.
Bt
Not a very good comparison.
If, when reading the novel, you were required to close the book and record your current position, before the characters attempted any action, under threat of having to start the novel from the beginning - or at least repeatedly re-read the same portion - then you’d be some way towards a more accurate comparison.
Not a very good comparison.
If, when reading the novel, you were required to close the book and record your current position, before the characters attempted any action, under threat of having to start the novel from the beginning - or at least repeatedly re-read the same portion - then you’d be some way towards a more accurate comparison.
Yeah, I don’t think anybody objects to having to save when they are going to stop playing for the day.
Though, yes, having to stop playing DOES break immersion. It just can’t be helped. I’m at a loss as to how someonw can claim that their immersion in a novel is NOT broken by having to put the book down and go do something else.
Exactly ... it’s just common sense that you save before doing something that’s really really dangerous.
That’s a lot better than the game not allowing anything to be dangerous. A bad guy is pointing a gun at you? Save! How hard is this?
Random deaths are a completely different matter that don’t exist anymore. But thinking that adventure game makers shouldn’t be allowed to have any deaths in their games without an auto-save feature is ludicrous.
To say they shouldn’t be ALLOWED to do so, yeah that’s ludicrous. To say that doing so adds nothing of benefit to the game? That’s a matter of opinion, and is an opinion that I actually hold.
In a lot of games, “something dangerous” (or at least potentially dangerous) describes a large portion of the game. It isn’t that saving before something dangerous isn’t common sense, it is that forcing you to do so manually serves no beneficial purpose that I can see. If it is so obvious when you should save that everybody with common sense will do it, then what is the point of bringing the game to a halt to force them to do so? It adds nothing to the gameplay, IMHO. It doesn’t even encourage you to be more careful IN GAME. It simply requires you to be cautious in a metagame sense, by saving your progress. Having a save, whether it be an autosave or a manual save, equally releases you from being overly concerned about behaving cautiously in the game itself. And to my mind, that’s a good thing, because very often, the CAUTIOUS thing to do, in game, is not the INTERESTING thing, or the thing that will allow you to progress.
I’ll grant that if the game has a quicksave option where all that is required for this is a single button press, then this may not be so disruptive to immersion as being required to bring up a menu, select “save”, select a save slot, then select “return to game”. But that’s rare in my experience, at least for adventure games. FPS games often have that option, but for adventure games I usually have to navigate a menu structure to save, completely leaving the game environment.
RE: Novels - Putting down the story doesn’t break “immersion” for me.
BtNot a very good comparison.
If, when reading the novel, you were required to close the book and record your current position, before the characters attempted any action, under threat of having to start the novel from the beginning - or at least repeatedly re-read the same portion - then you’d be some way towards a more accurate comparison.
Well, in fact - I have been known to go back and re-read passages I may have previously read before I put it down, so as to orient myself again. Especially if there’s been a lapse in reading. I don’t see that as any kind of impedance to the enjoyment and immersion of the story.
Now, yes, having to start a game over from the beginning does suck, but this happens less and less with games these days than it did in the early days of adventure gaming. You may have to repeat some sections, but rarely a complete restart is required.
Bt
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