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Mystery Game X - Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers, 20th Anniversary Edition
Polish, Germans, some other Asian country perhaps??? There must be more options for outsourcing.
India and China are two biggest IT related outsourcing countries mainly because of two things: 1. A huge pool of workers, which leads to -> 2. Cheap salaries. There’s not many other countries that can match that. Some south American countries try, but they often have much less skilled IT people. Israel does also fairly well in IT outsourcing, but they don’t have nearly as much workforce to offer.
Well average IT skills in China is really low… Apart from the top university like Tsinghua, universities do not have good teachers and do not actually teach their students much (this is partly due to the huge increase in the size of universities in the last 10 years which caused a lot of demand for teachers and a lot of subpar teachers to be hired). So, yes China is big but they are not much more skilled than a lot of south american countries. And people who have good skills there command high salaries.
I’ve had less experience hiring people in india but from what I’ve seen there does seem to be a more sizable pool of skilled people but like anywhere, skilled people tend to be more expensive.
My experience is in programing though, I’m sure art and animation is a bit different.
Anyway, back on topic. I do feel that it’s better than Moebius but of course any company that tries to remake one of the holy relics of the adventure gaming genre is going to face criticism and honestly, no one can say that POS does a good job when it comes to animation. In the case of this game, some of the animation is actually really good but I’m not sure which came from Signus Lab and which from POS.
I do think that the remake has value for people who never played the game and will get a chance to discover it on an ipad. For us who were raised with the sierra and lucasarts adventure games of the 90s, of course it’s going to be a disappointment and there’s not much point in us playing this remake.
Caliburn, you are wise man.
Echo that!
me as well; echo that,... echo that,.. ..echo that but without the decaying
.. seriously Cali is the most careful, précise and relied-on poster at these forums, that it IS always obvious how much effort he put into his posts and replies, god bless you Cali.
Agreed
Aww… thanks, you guys. I appreciate that you are patient with my long posts and don’t just say “tl;dr” 
AG should consider adding a new Moderator. You have a natural gift of de-escalation and nuance that is apparant in most of your posts! We can all learn a bit from that.
Thanks. Jackal gave me an invitation to become a moderator a few months back. Unfortunately, I had to politely decline, at least for the time being.
The Gabriel and Grace cutscene on Day 6
The sequence where Grace paints the snake tattoo onto Gabriel’s chest was in the original game, but there it was done only as a scripted sequence (animated character sprites moving within the standard game scene). In the remake, it has been turned into a full cutscene.Yes, I was surprised by the cutscene for that sequence, as though it’s nice to look at, I don’t quite see why the devs chose to animate that particular sequence as a full blown cutscene.
It may depend on how invested you are in the Gabriel and Grace dynamic. But I think it’s an important scene because Gabriel and Grace share a moment that, despite (or perhaps I should say because of) their constant banter back and forth, has romantic undertones. The scene is part of an arc that will continue through GK2 and GK3.
As for why I think it benefitted from being turned into a full cutscene: basically, it’s a great opportunity for facial acting because it’s the kind of scene where what isn’t being said aloud is as important as what is.
I’d like to look at the two sequences side-by-side, so SPOILER WARNING, obviously. Don’t watch these videos unless you’ve played both the original and the remake, or at least one or the other, through Day 6. Also, I’m going to start a bit before the actual cutscene starts in the remake just so there’s more context:
Original sequence (auto-starts at 1:07:21, please stop at 1:09:30)
As I mentioned previously, in the original game this particular sequence doesn’t include a cutscene. The painting of the snake tattoo is just a scripted sequence using animated sprites. Since there’s no camera work and you can’t see faces, the sequence relies mainly on Tim Curry and Leah Remini’s acting, as well as the player’s imagination. It works fine and I’ve always remembered it as a memorable moment with romantic undertones even in the original game.
Remake sequence and cutscene (auto-starts at 4:50:53, please stop at 4:53:04)
[spoiler]The remake’s cutscene, though, adds another dimension. Starting at time index 4:52:26, for example, Gabriel’s expressions are full of nuance. He puts up his hands and says “Okay, okay.” He is startled by the feel of the brush, processes what’s happening, smiles, and then looks vaguely troubled. The ability to see Gabriel’s face helps the scene convey unspoken feelings more effectively. To me, that’s a big deal because unspoken feelings are what the scene is really about.[/spoiler]
Ideally, it would have been great if the Guenther’s background story was animated in this fashion. I immediately realize that this would have been a pretty big sequence, so it would have to be cut into smaller segments and feed those at different points and it would have been pretty impactful nonetheless (not to mention expensive).
But that would have been a great and solid contribution to the remake.
Sure, that would be very cool (and indeed prohibitively expensive), though I like the graphic novel and think the backstory works well in that format for reasons of pacing.
In the case of this game, some of the animation is actually really good but I’m not sure which came from Signus Lab and which from POS.
Was it actually Signus who did work on this? I think I read it twice now, but officially there was no word out on who the original developers were when I checked last time.
Was it actually Signus who did work on this? I think I read it twice now, but officially there was no word out on who the original developers were when I checked last time.
There was never an official statement made to backers or (to my knowledge) in any public interview that identified who the original GK:20th developer was before Activision put the project on hold. But we now know it was Signus because they are listed in the game’s opening credits.
I see, thank you!
Well average IT skills in China is really low… Apart from the top university like Tsinghua, universities do not have good teachers and do not actually teach their students much (this is partly due to the huge increase in the size of universities in the last 10 years which caused a lot of demand for teachers and a lot of subpar teachers to be hired). So, yes China is big but they are not much more skilled than a lot of south american countries. And people who have good skills there command high salaries.
It’s really a question of who has managed to sell themselves the best and Chinese and Indian outsourcing companies have excelled at that. A lot of companies outsource to China and India because companies there are good at selling themselves. You actually hear often people speak about how the code needs to be fixed after the outsourcing companies are done with it, but the main bulk of the work is still done as outsource, because it is so much cheaper.
South American countries really haven’t managed to create an image of themselves as IT savvy countries, where as China and India have, no matter what the real side of the matter is. There’s actually a lot of studies done about that.
How the games execution holds up IMO.
Weaknesses: While certain animations are incredible (looks like motion capture) there are some places where it looks like the graph editor has barely been touched. The character models don’t always blend in with the backgrounds as good as they should, often in terms of lightning and the grounds surfaces.
Strengths: The new graphics manages to capture the “oil painting/comic book”-style perfectly. The backgrounds are especially gorgeous with animated water, light, fog ect. The lip-animations during the dialogues are also notably amazing.
Agreed there!
Combine Water with Condom to get Water balloon
Speaking of outsourcing - what about central european countries? Jane Jensen has even some experience with them, as casual games she made with Floodlight Games were very decent in graphics departament. And I believe the team is from Belarus.
My feelings to GK20 haven’t changed substantially, but I’m trying to make my comments more balanced after Caliburn’s marvelous posts. However, it seems that not everyone thinks similar. Which is normal, because everyone can think whatever he wants, even if it means calling someone a troll, after single, not particularly malicious post.
Besides chrissie, look it that way - if some comments keep recurring: maybe there’s a grain of truth there?
Pulstar, it was a particularly malicious post from a 1st time poster who obviously signed up specifically to make it & was obviously oblivious to Caliburn’s wise posts so fair comment on my part!
The poster just completely trashed everything about POS - please leave them alone, they seem to be a very dedicated young team who do produce good graphics & just need to work on their animation skills which I’m sure they’re working on after the hammering they’re getting! There are a lot of posts about outsourcing to somewhere else - why? to start again with a less experienced development team - POS will get better I’m sure!
particularly malicious post
particularly? where?
from a 1st time poster
doesn’t he deserve a chance to explain his point of view?
who obviously signed up specifically to make it
why could you possibly know this?
& was obviously oblivious to Caliburn’s wise posts so fair comment on my part
yeah, that’s exactly right word: fair!
The poster just completely trashed everything about POS
I think you’re getting carried away a little bit
please leave them alone, they seem to be a very dedicated young team who do produce good graphics
that’s merely your opinion, not an established fact
& just need to work on their animation skills
do we have time to wait?
which I’m sure they’re working on after the hammering they’re getting
probably, but will they succeed?
There are a lot of posts about outsourcing to somewhere else - why? to start again with a less experienced development team
the point of this is to find MORE experienced team
POS will get better I’m sure
good luck for them, still I’m not convinced that future of GK should be based on HOPES!
That’s how I see it. Such exaggerated, emotional posts as yours are not going to calm the discussion. For example you managed to provoke me into further discussion, though I planned not to. Accept the truth that it is possible not to be POS fanboy/fangirl.
There are a lot of posts about outsourcing to somewhere else - why? to start again with a less experienced development team - POS will get better I’m sure!
As far as I understand it, POS are outsourcing a large part of the development themselves. What they probably lack, aside from money, is some experienced developers at the center, who can set some standards and make the right calls on whom to hire.
I don’t think the low budget can be a an excuse for everything which was brought up.
Not everyone here was talking about replacing POS as a whole, but about the choice of contractors in general.
The situation with Pinkerton as an additional cook surely doesn’t help, either.
Looking at the development history, I’d say it’s safe to assume there have been some ruffled feathers, so some backlash from that wouldn’t surprise me.
I’d still think most of the negative posts in here are simply by disappointed fans and people simply can’t grasp the fact that there are people with opinions vastly different from their own.
For example, statements like
The new graphics manages to capture the “oil painting/comic book”-style perfectly. The backgrounds are especially gorgeous with animated water, light, fog ect. The lip-animations during the dialogues are also notably amazing.
or your very own
I have played Moebius & apart from some dodgy animation in parts I thought the graphics were gorgeous.
quite frankly boggle my mind. But I somehow have to cope with the fact that people sincerely think like that. I’d advise you to do the same.
so fair comment on my part!
No, I really don’t think so and I suggest you read Caliburn’s post in question again and take it to heart this time.
It would be a pretty boring discussion if everybody thought the exact same thing.
I get the feeling that much of the things that bugs the most disappointed people are of the subjective sort (meaning graphical style). So it would be interesting to hear exactly how you guys think the remake should have looked like.
NP: A Link Between Worlds, Beneath a Steel Sky and Vampyr
Does anyone know whether the game is succeeding? Did it find an audience beyond nostalgic gamers?
Critically or commercially?
This site’s review was written by someone who hadn’t played the original and as you can see it was pretty positive.
Metacritic shows an average of 76 for Gabriel Knight 20th anniversary edition, which is pretty damn good considering they are scoring a remake.
Commercially, I would not know. It’s digital only, so sales data is not usually shared or summarized anywhere. Steam and GOG won’t publish these either, so only Phoenix Online and Pinkerton could give some insights into these, but I don’t think that’s likely to happen.
It would be a pretty boring discussion if everybody thought the exact same thing.
I get the feeling that much of the things that bugs the most disappointed people are of the subjective sort (meaning graphical style). So it would be interesting to hear exactly how you guys think the remake should have looked like.
I’m all for hearing different opinions.
One of the main complaints that came up so far is that the graphics look cheap or unprofessional. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. I wrote this before but here is my take on it:
The graphical style is not consistent within scenes and between scenes. Inside the scenes you can clearly tell they were assembled from different sources. Partly 3D, partly photos, partly painted, and the lighting has often not been adjusted in a convincing way. (In my opinion this is not subjective. Subjective is if you’re bothered by it or not.) This is also where the comparison to hidden object games comes from, in my opinion. There are several cases where the perspective seems a bit wonky, too.
You have scenes where the lighting on the characters looks good to me, like Mosley sitting at his desk. But you have many scenes where the lighting on the characters seems wrong and the shadows they cast at the scene look strange and often unrelated to the lights or simply absent. (For example Gabriel in the same scene, or the characters in the Gedde living room.)
Many scenes are unnecessarily colorful and flashy, in my opinion. This again adds to the cheap vibe for me, especially if you compare it to the very clever use of colors in the beloved original, which of course makes it harder for the remake to be accepted. Moebius looks worse in many aspects, but it bothers me less than GK20.
Gabriel looks creepy to me, his elbow seems broken in several places and the voice acting seems forced instead of natural.(I wouldn’t have thought I’d say that about a voice actor following in Curry’s footsteps, but here I am.) The comparison to a bad Elvis impersonator isn’t too far off, either, If we are being honest.
I imagine many of those choices like the colors, or Gabriel’s looks and voice are influenced by Pinkerton and POS were simply in no position to refuse them. Who knows, maybe they even tried deliberately to attract the HOG crowd (though I doubt anyone would make a scene inconsistent on purpose) and tried to target female gamers. There was an interview with Jane a while ago that hints in this direction. But even then the execution falls short because Gabriel looks creepy to many people, not like the handsome lout he is supposed to be.
Does anyone know whether the game is succeeding? Did it find an audience beyond nostalgic gamers?
I don’t think GK20 made a huge impact outside of the adventure game community, despite being backed by Activision, but that’s just my impression.
Seeing that they invested very little, they are probably happy with relatively low sales figures and the quality of GK20 might be a hint at the quality we can expect for future GK games.
Metacritic shows an average of 76 for Gabriel Knight 20th anniversary edition, which is pretty damn good considering they are scoring a remake.
How do you figure? While you have to fight nostalgia, you already have a proven and highly rated game to build up on. The MI remakes hit a metascore of 86 and 87.
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