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I played one of the Blackwell games for two hours and decided to give the rest a wide berth, so I don’t know what puzzles you’re talking about. But your safe example is not a puzzle and it doesn’t prove anything.
Are we on the same page here? I was referring to opening the safe in Monkey Island. If you claim that’s not a puzzle, then I guess there’s too little common ground for any meaningful discussion.
Man, I had no idea your “safe” example was related to the MI shopkeeper! Yeah, I played the game once 20-25 years ago, I’m not the most devoted fan of the MI series, and I’ve forgotten a lot. Sue me. 
Okay, so I selected a longplay on youtube + a wt to tell me where I should start looking. All that to be on the same page as you! Good girl, Karlok.
And I found it.
Guybrush doesn’t have to spy on the shopkeeper or hide or follow him or do anything, he just stands there and watches the man openly provide the answer to the safe puzzle. That’s all. Fine with me if you call that a puzzle. But I don’t understand why you object to the same thing in a text adventure. If I were a game developer (God forbid), I’d probably go for a more visual description, like the handle now points south or west or whatever. Then the player would have to use his little gray cells to conclude that he has to turn the handle 3 times.
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
I played one of the Blackwell games for two hours and decided to give the rest a wide berth, so I don’t know what puzzles you’re talking about. But your safe example is not a puzzle and it doesn’t prove anything.
Are we on the same page here? I was referring to opening the safe in Monkey Island. If you claim that’s not a puzzle, then I guess there’s too little common ground for any meaningful discussion.
Man, I had no idea your “safe” example was related to the MI shopkeeper! Yeah, I played the game once 20-25 years ago, I’m not the most devoted fan of the MI series, and I’ve forgotten a lot. Sue me.
And I found it.Guybrush doesn’t have to spy on the shopkeeper or hide or follow him or do anything, he just stands there and watches the man openly provide the answer to the safe puzzle. That’s all. Fine with me if you call that a puzzle. But I don’t understand why you object to the same thing in a text adventure. If I were a game developer (God forbid), I’d probably go for a more visual description, like the handle now points south or west or whatever. Then the player would have to use his little gray cells to conclude that he has to turn the handle 3 times.
And if you watch it a little further, you’ll see that there’s another puzzle where Guybrush does have to follow him around 
. What’s nice about those two puzzles is that nobody tells you that it’s a puzzle! The moment of discovery comes from the realization that there is a puzzle there.
But, more to the point, you’re saying that the puzzle can be changed in such and such way so it can be presented in a static form. And what I’m saying is that a static form is too limiting here. Those two statements do not necessarily contradict each other.
And if you watch it a little further, you’ll see that there’s another puzzle where Guybrush does have to follow him around
And…? You can follow NPCs in text adventures.
What’s nice about those two puzzles is that nobody tells you that it’s a puzzle! The moment of discovery comes from the realization that there is a puzzle there.
Text adventures offer those moments as well.
But, more to the point, you’re saying that the puzzle can be changed in such and such way so it can be presented in a static form. And what I’m saying is that a static form is too limiting here. Those two statements do not necessarily contradict each other.
I don’t see the limits you see. I get the feeling you haven’t played many text adventures, but of course I may be wrong. Anyway, let’s agree to disagree.
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
Which post? I already added your suggestion of pixel-hunting.
I thought you were avoiding the pixel hunting discussion for some reason. Nevermind then, I’m glad we attributed something!
Don’t take it personally, he ignores my posts too. Come to think of it, he ignores most posts in his own thread. Tsk, tsk.
Not personal, it just puzzled me there was no Post Mortem or Blade Runner mention…
Come to think of it, there’s another “pixel hunt” puzzle that takes place in the inventory: rotating 3D items with some active spots. Tex Murphy, King’s Quest VII and Lost in Time come to mind.
Also combining items in the inventory is probably worth of a mention as well.
PC means personal computer
And if you watch it a little further, you’ll see that there’s another puzzle where Guybrush does have to follow him around
And…? You can follow NPCs in text adventures.
I was just joking, because you said you didn’t have to follow him.
I get the feeling you haven’t played many text adventures, but of course I may be wrong.
Sure, sure, that’s a winning argument in any discussion. I did ask for examples from text games similar to the specific examples that I’d listed. And I had to install a Z-machine interpreter and play through half of She’s Got a Thing for a Spring only to find out that the cake is a lie the rabbit is a pika and its puzzle doesn’t convince me. (Just kidding. I do appreciate it, and the elk puzzle was an interesting example.)
I got two suggestions (from you and from Oscar) saying that the safe puzzle can be changed and then it would fit into a text game. That’s not a very strong argument. Maybe an even better example is the ad bot puzzle from Dreamfall Chapters. Can it be converted to text form? I suppose so. Would it work equally well in text form? I don’t think so.
Sure, sure, that’s a winning argument in any discussion.
When someone claims text adventures can’t do stuff like tailing, spying, ordering NPCs, distracting, I get the impression they haven’t played many text adventures.
I got two suggestions (from you and from Oscar) saying that the safe puzzle can be changed and then it would fit into a text game.
Not changed. Translated into text. You said you want to make your own observations. Solution: the player must look at the shopkeeper to get info about what he is doing exactly. If he examines other stuff, he won’t get the safe info. You said you wanted to draw your own conclusions. Solution: Make the player form a mental picture of the safe handle positions (like Oscar and I both did) instead of outright telling him 3L, 4R.
That’s not a very strong argument. Maybe an even better example is the ad bot puzzle from Dreamfall Chapters.
Yoy really know how to pick your examples. I’m going to play Dreamfall Chapters the moment they release the last episode.
Can it be converted to text form? I suppose so. Would it work equally well in text form? I don’t think so.
Could you be a little more explicit? Comments like “doesn’t work equally well” and “limiting for certain puzzles” are rather vague. What exactly is it that doesn’t work for you?
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
Karlok you are phd in Text AGs.
Is there any thread detailing all kinds of TextAGs?
Sure, sure, that’s a winning argument in any discussion.
When someone claims text adventures can’t do stuff like tailing, spying, ordering NPCs, distracting, I get the impression they haven’t played many text adventures.
I got two suggestions (from you and from Oscar) saying that the safe puzzle can be changed and then it would fit into a text game.
Not changed. Translated into text. You said you want to make your own observations. Solution: the player must look at the shopkeeper to get info about what he is doing exactly. If he examines other stuff, he won’t get the safe info. You said you wanted to draw your own conclusions. Solution: Make the player form a mental picture of the safe handle positions (like Oscar and I both did) instead of outright telling him 3L, 4R.
That’s not a very strong argument. Maybe an even better example is the ad bot puzzle from Dreamfall Chapters.
Yoy really know how to pick your examples.
Can it be converted to text form? I suppose so. Would it work equally well in text form? I don’t think so.
Could you be a little more explicit? Comments like “doesn’t work equally well” and “limiting for certain puzzles” are rather vague. What exactly is it that doesn’t work for you?
Please quote the place where I said text adventures can’t do that stuff. I already wrote earlier: “When I said that static output ‘doesn’t quite work’, I meant that for certain puzzles it’s too limiting.”
What I’m saying is this: animation can be used to build puzzles that are based on continuous actions. Breaking those into discrete steps isn’t going to work just as well.
If the puzzle requires getting an NPC to move in a certain way, animation is the natural medium for that. In discrete form it would be “do this; look; the NPC is in position X; do that; look; the NPC is in position Y.” The puzzle may be conditioned on proximity to something, on the speed, on the line of sight, on elevation, etc. I do not think that describing all those things in text is feasible. So the text version won’t have the same level of interactivity and variety.
Same if the whole idea is that the information is supposed to be revealed gradually, as a continuous event, not as a single snapshot. As in, again, the safe puzzle.
So please give me some examples of text games that you think do something similar well.
What I’m saying is this: animation can be used to build puzzles that are based on continuous actions. Breaking those into discrete steps isn’t going to work just as well.
If the puzzle requires getting an NPC to move in a certain way, animation is the natural medium for that. In discrete form it would be “do this; look; the NPC is in position X; do that; look; the NPC is in position Y.” The puzzle may be conditioned on proximity to something, on the speed, on the line of sight, on elevation, etc. I do not think that describing all those things in text is feasible. So the text version won’t have the same level of interactivity and variety.
Same if the whole idea is that the information is supposed to be revealed gradually, as a continuous event, not as a single snapshot. As in, again, the safe puzzle.
So please give me some examples of text games that you think do something similar well.
The essence of the safe puzzle (BTW you ignored what I wrote about translating) does not change at all in “text adventure mode”. It doesn’t matter if the information is revealed in the five or six seconds it takes the shopkeeper to open the safe, or in the four or five seconds it takes the player to read a description of the shopkeeper opening the safe. It’s still a continuous event. And a description can not be compared to a snapshot.
So, I’m sorry, I have to disagree with everything you’re saying. Of course it would be hard to play tetris or solve a slider in a text adventure, I’ll grant you that. Maybe not impossible, but certainly not much fun.
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
Karlok you are phd in Text AGs.
Is there any thread detailing all kinds of TextAGs?
http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/viewthread/7964/
http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/viewthread/5845/
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
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