Adventure Gamers - Forums

tomimt - 05 May 2022 01:15 AM

I’m not going to touch the art style discussion anymore, as I’ve said all I want about it.

But in terms of the sales number speculations. Ron made a post back in the day, that his two biggest platforms were Steam and Nintendo Wii. Steam sales took 30% and Wii 32% of the total sales (this was back in 2018 https://grumpygamer.com/twp_sales).

SteamDb gives estimations for Steam numbers, not accurate, but they do give some ballpark estimations ranging from 98k to 500k copies. The lowest number is based on review numbers, the highest numbers are based on other Steam statistics.

So, if were are conservative here, and say Steam accounts for 250k numbers, then Wii would be around the same number, so Ron’s previous game sold at least 500k copies on two platforms.

Considering that Monkey Island is a well-liked brand name, I’d figure him coming back to it would account for at least 500k in sales.

For a note, Tales of Monkey Island has a range from 22k to 500k for its complete season. So all these numbers need to be taken with a pinch of salt, as they are just estimations.

Another smaller edit.

King’s Quest, the first episode, has numbers ranging between 87k-500k, but it also has to remember, you can play it for free. The following episodes have abysmal player numbers. The season pass ranges between 1k-2,5k, while Episode 2 ranges from 2.5k-6.1k. So by those numbers, it was a complete flop in sales.

That was a very detailed answer, but I’ve also always wanted to see how much of that amount in sales is full price, compared to discounted, heavily discounted, or basically giving the game away for free in those bundles. For instance I do believe Gemini Rue is one of the biggest selling indie point-and-click games of all time but it’s been apart of so many discounts and bundles where it was virtually free, how much do those sales actually translate into a dollar amount for the developer? Just something I’ve always been curious about.

Advie - 05 May 2022 10:34 AM

Mr Underhill - 05 May 2022 06:34 AM

I believe that virtually everyone involved in the online argument re: the graphics, whatever side of the fence they are on, will buy the game on release.

agree, but again who cares, its their loss

It’s their loss that they’ll buy the game?

Baron_Blubba - 05 May 2022 11:03 AM

St Eddie:

Regarding the comparison between Ron’s QUIT HAVING FUN! post and the Shhhh… meme, there is a strong tonal difference, even if the message is similar.
Ron might have put his foot in his mouth with his own Fedora post, and that’s enough to prove your point. I don’t think he deserves to be even more strongly criticized by referencing a meme that he didn’t use.

My opinion is that his responses have been insufficiently considered and ungraceful. I can’t remember a time when it ever went well for a media creator (games, movies, music) to fight internet fire with internet fire.
That said, I think he’s trying to make the following valid point, although his way of making it has been quite poor: Folks tend to let the details curtail their enjoyment too much. We’d all enjoy stuff more if, instead of approaching it with expectations based on what was or what we wish it were, we’d let it be what it is.

That’s not to say that there can be no distinction betwixt ‘good stuff’ and ‘bad stuff’, but saying ‘I’m not enjoying this because it isn’t like what the last one was or what I was hoping it would be’ can cause one to miss out on some really great stuff.
This happens in music more than anything, but it’s definitely present in games, movies, and books as well.

If the new Monkey Island game is fun, I’ll enjoy it, no matter how similar or dissimilar it is to the old ones. Heck, you could call it ‘Syberia 5’ or ‘The Lord of the Rings: Book 4’ and I wouldn’t care, as long as it was fun.

Well I’m sure some of that is true, once again most of fans are just commenting on what he has shown us, which is an art style we do not enjoy, and we are commenting on not liking it because it is what it is. The game has been in development for 2 years, the style is not changing most likely. We all know that, but that fact doesn’t exclude it from criticis. the other point we are making is that everytime the blacklash dies down, Ron Stokes the fire back up with memes and attacking the fans. He should just make the game he wants to make let the people who dislike have their say and let the chips fall where they may.

tomimt - 05 May 2022 11:39 AM

Jdawg445 - 05 May 2022 10:56 AM

That was a very detailed answer, but I’ve also always wanted to see how much of that amount in sales is full price, compared to discounted, heavily discounted, or basically giving the game away for free in those bundles. For instance I do believe Gemini Rue is one of the biggest selling indie point-and-click games of all time but it’s been apart of so many discounts and bundles where it was virtually free, how much do those sales actually translate into a dollar amount for the developer? Just something I’ve always been curious about.

Yeah, Thimbleweed Park has most likely sold quite a bit on later sales. But how much, that’s anyone’s guess. I don’t think Ron ever divulged how many copies the game ended up selling, only the percentages on different platforms, but he always stated he was happy with the numbers, even before the game went on bigger sales. I guess every game dev has to be prepared that at some point, most sales give only pocket change, but I’ve figured Ron and co. were happy with their earnings.

 

 

Yeah I remember Dave Gilbert wrote a blog about steamspy and said that the least selling game in the catalogue, had actually made him the most money, because it hadn’t been discounted yet at all so all sales were full price and it was a self-published game a d not a game published for somebody else, so he didn’t have to split the profits.

Baron_Blubba - 05 May 2022 11:03 AM

That said, I think he’s trying to make the following valid point, although his way of making it has been quite poor: Folks tend to let the details curtail their enjoyment too much. We’d all enjoy stuff more if, instead of approaching it with expectations based on what was or what we wish it were, we’d let it be what it is.

The thing about it is that if Ron didn’t want fans to pick apart and analyse the art style before playing the game, then he shouldn’t have released screenshots ahead of release. Of course fans are going to go through promotional material with a fine-tooth comb.  Of course they’re going to have opinions, both positive and negative, about those screenshots.  That’s what fans do. As a professional games developer working on a highly anticipated game, Ron ought to have realised that.  In actuality, given that the entire point of releasing screenshots ahead of release is in order to provoke an audience reaction, albeit a positive one, I think that Ron did realise that but he unrealistically expected the response to be one of absolute universal praise for the art style and his ego was bruised when a portion of the fanbase dared to be anything other than unwaveringly positive and complimentary towards the chosen art direction for the game.

Ron needs to realise that just because some fans are not overly keen on the art style at this early stage, that doesn’t mean that people such as myself have written the art style off wholesale, much less written the entire game off.  It’s not like we don’t already know that viewing early screenshots is not the same thing as actually playing a released game.  We’re just giving our own individual early reactions to promotional material, as is a fan’s wont to do.

Quite frankly, it reeks of sour grapes for Ron to be doing things like retweeting that hateful memetic image on his Twitter page and I do think that your own take on Ron’s motivations behind retweeting that image are being overly generous.  It reads as textbook artistic petulisim to me and for Ron, as a creative who hopes for this game to do well and to be well received upon release, to be lashing out at the fandom; it’s not constructive to building and maintaining positive hype for the game.  It only serves to create further division among the fandom and to further fan the flames of criticism.

Having said all of that, note that the source of ire within my previous post was not with Ron himself for retweeting that memetic image but rather the person who created said image in the first place.  It’s that person who I was being scathingly critical of, for expressing such an idiotic strawman argument, not Ron Gilbert for retweeting said image (although I do think that it was foolish of Ron to have retweeted that image, for the reasons stated above).

Jdawg445 - 05 May 2022 11:14 AM

Well I’m sure some of that is true, once again most of fans are just commenting on what he has shown us, which is an art style we do not enjoy, and we are commenting on not liking it because it is what it is. The game has been in development for 2 years, the style is not changing most likely. We all know that, but that fact doesn’t exclude it from criticis. the other point we are making is that every time the blacklash dies down, Ron Stokes the fire back up with memes and attacking the fans. He should just make the game he wants to make let the people who dislike have their say and let the chips fall where they may.

Well said.  If Ron wants the game to speak for itself, then perhaps he ought to stop reacting to people’s early thoughts and criticisms and actually allow the game to speak for itself, once its been released.  If the people who were initially critical of the art style do a 180 degree turn upon playing the game, as I hope will be the case, then Ron can feel vindicated at that point in time.  In the meantime, he needs to realise that he can’t stop a fandom from possessing and expressing opinions about a highly anticipated game, especially on the Internet of all places.  As a professional games developer, it can only behoove Ron to not be so grudge-bearing towards his target audience.

St_Eddie - 05 May 2022 12:45 PM

Baron_Blubba - 05 May 2022 11:03 AM

That said, I think he’s trying to make the following valid point, although his way of making it has been quite poor: Folks tend to let the details curtail their enjoyment too much. We’d all enjoy stuff more if, instead of approaching it with expectations based on what was or what we wish it were, we’d let it be what it is.

The thing about it is that if Ron didn’t want fans to pick apart and analyse the art style before playing the game, then he shouldn’t have released screenshots ahead of release. Of course fans are going to go through promotional material with a fine-tooth comb.  Of course they’re going to have opinions, both positive and negative, about those screenshots.  That’s what fans do. As a professional games developer working on a highly anticipated game, Ron ought to have realised that.  In actuality, given that the entire point of releasing screenshots ahead of release is in order to provoke an audience reaction, albeit a positive one, I think that Ron did realise that but he unrealistically expected the response to be one of absolute universal praise for the art style and his ego was bruised when a portion of the fanbase dared to be anything other than unwaveringly positive and complimentary towards the chosen art direction for the game.

Ron needs to realise that just because some fans are not overly keen on the art style at this early stage, that doesn’t mean that people such as myself have written the art style off wholesale, much less written the entire game off.  It’s not like we don’t already know that viewing early screenshots is not the same thing as actually playing a released game.  We’re just giving our own individual early reactions to promotional material, as is a fan’s wont to do.

Quite frankly, it reeks of sour grapes for Ron to be doing things like retweeting that hateful memetic image on his Twitter page and I do think that your own take on Ron’s motivations behind retweeting that image are being overly generous.  It reads as textbook artistic petulisim to me and for Ron, as a creative who hopes for this game to do well and to be well received upon release, to be lashing out at the fandom; it’s not constructive to building and maintaining positive hype for the game.  It only serves to create further division among the fandom and to further fan the flames of criticism.

Having said all of that, note that the source of ire within my previous post was not with Ron himself for retweeting that memetic image but rather the person who created said image in the first place.  It’s that person who I was being scathingly critical of, for expressing such an idiotic strawman argument, not Ron Gilbert for retweeting said image (though I do think that it was foolish of Ron to have retweeted that image, for the reasons stated above).

Jdawg445 - 05 May 2022 11:14 AM

Well I’m sure some of that is true, once again most of fans are just commenting on what he has shown us, which is an art style we do not enjoy, and we are commenting on not liking it because it is what it is. The game has been in development for 2 years, the style is not changing most likely. We all know that, but that fact doesn’t exclude it from criticis. the other point we are making is that every time the blacklash dies down, Ron Stokes the fire back up with memes and attacking the fans. He should just make the game he wants to make let the people who dislike have their say and let the chips fall where they may.

Well said.  If Ron wants the game to speak for itself, then perhaps he ought to stop reacting to people’s early thoughts and criticisms and actually allow the game to speak for itself, once its been released.  If the people who were initially critical of the art style do a 180 degree turn upon playing the game, as I hope will be the case, then Ron can feel vindicated at that point in time.  In the meantime, he needs to realise that he can’t stop a fandom from possessing and expressing opinions about a highly anticipated game, especially on the Internet of all places.  As a professional games developer, it can only behoove Ron to not be so grudge-bearing towards his target audience.

Wholeheartedly agree and also he needs to stop being petty to other contemporary games of that era, like day of the tentacle or Monkey Island 3. it does no service to anybody by taking potshots at those games, they are 20 to 30 years old at this point in time.

Charophycean - 05 May 2022 08:37 PM

Ron said that Murray will be in it. But why, when he’s said he didn’t like where Curse took the series?

“I’d want to pick up where I left off. Free of baggage. In a carnival. That doesn’t mean I won’t steal some good ideas or characters from other games. I’m not above that.” ~ Ron Gilbert (2013)

Charophycean - 05 May 2022 08:37 PM

I’m on Ron’s side when he talks about moving Monkey Island forward to keep it interesting and exciting. I just hope he does that with the rest of the game, not just the graphics. I don’t want to see a sequel to Tales, that’s far too confining for what I believe Ron can do.

“Yes, [the other games, post Monkey Island 2] are canon. Neither Dave nor I felt like we could throw them out. There are a lot of beloved games. We love things like Murray. Throwing them out seemed like a pointless thing to do.” ~ Ron Gilbert (2022)

“Our general philosophy was that we would adhere to existing canon as much as we could with sort of two caveats — one being that it’s really hard to keep track of all that stuff. And some of these games don’t agree with each other, so sometimes there’s a paradox, and you just live with it. The other is that canon can sometimes get in the way of telling a good story, and that’s never a battle you want to lose. So whenever there was something that didn’t quite fit, we just ignored it conveniently.” ~ Dave Grossman (2022)

Baron_Blubba - 06 May 2022 12:27 PM

I missed it; where did Ron say mean stuff about Day of the Tentacle?

Here ya go.

I never liked the art in DotT. Technically and artistically it was fantastic, but I never liked the wacky Chuck Jones style. But that was Dave and Tim’s game, not mine. They can do what they want and I completely supported that.

Curse of Monkey Island also took a leap forward. It introduced us to a fully voiced and taller, lankier Guybrush with painted backgrounds that were all the rage in the late 90s. It was very much a game of its time.

He is not super critical with his hot takes, but why even take a potshot at all. other than trying to say his art is better than those games. Spoiler warning: it is not