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So what’s Jane Jensen up to these days?
I don’t feel like getting involved in most of this discussion, but I did feel I should correct this—
take a game like “the book of unwritten tales”, it was made I think by just one person
BOUT was not made by one person, rather by a small- to mid-sized development team—
you are right my bad lol, I took the name of king art a a single person not as a team
List games with those AI based puzzles or npcs, i want to play those AGs.
Text adventures is your new favourite genre.
Yes, and 7th Guest and any game like it where you go up against an opponent in a puzzle.
its not the same thing as enemy AI, though. puzzles are a static enemy; there is a set of rules that you have to follow to win. take playing chess against a computer, the computer knows there is only a set number of ways the human player is allowed to move; so the human player is not allowed to say F this im just going to chunk a grenade across the board and take out the computers king lol. in a game like metal gear, the AI has to be aware that the player might sneak in and kill the enemy, use an air strike, go guns blazing, use distractions or a mixture of a 100 different ways to solve the problem/objective. all pnc adventure games that i have ever played never has had that. there are usually 1 to 3 very static ways to solve said problem or puzzle
Yes, and 7th Guest and any game like it where you go up against an opponent in a puzzle.
its not the same thing as enemy AI, though. puzzles are a static enemy; there is a set of rules that you have to follow to win. take playing chess against a computer, the computer knows there is only a set number of ways the human player is allowed to move; so the human player is not allowed to say F this im just going to chunk a grenade across the board and take out the computers king lol. in a game like metal gear, the AI has to be aware that the player might sneak in and kill the enemy, use an air strike, go guns blazing, use distractions or a mixture of a 100 different ways to solve the problem/objective. all pnc adventure games that i have ever played never has had that. there are usually 1 to 3 very static ways to solve said problem or puzzle
There is no difference. Do you know how complicated chess is? Much more complicated than your computer shooters. Chess takes decades to master, only recently have computers become able to beat humans, but it is easy to make a shooter or fighting game to beat everyone.
thats totally inaccurate computers have been playing chess for yrs and yrs and yrs and beating players for close to two decades here is a short documentary about it.
Im just going to stop having this conversation though bc it is obvious most folks dont understand the difference between set rigid rules for AI (as in what you see in most adventure games or chess, bc the computer knows the rules of chess and you can not deviate from said rules, whereas in a game, especially an open world game you can totally break what your suppose to do and the AI can still respond pretty accurately now.)and coding for AI that is dynamic and has to compute a thousand different scenarios that a player could try or might never try. for instance in the witcher you can literally follow 100’s of npcs around and observe their life. they have routines and are in different areas at different times of the day. you can go in to a small village and help these citizens and they will remember you fondly a 100 game hrs later, or you can go in and kill every one and the game remembers that as well and the town is no more, essentially becoming a ghost town
for instance in the witcher you can literally follow 100’s of npcs around and observe their life. they have routines and are in different areas at different times of the day. you can go in to a small village and help these citizens and they will remember you fondly a 100 game hrs later, or you can go in and kill every one and the game remembers that as well and the town is no more, essentially becoming a ghost town
you act like these npcs are cyborgs, instead of what they really are: some simple stored variables that say “if like then blah. if no like blah blah. Do x? then change like to no like.”
Its 100’s of npcs with much much fewer templates that draw from a very simple pool of stuff to do. Why would “100 game hrs later” ever matter as opposed to 100 million? It is what it is. Its not a feat when you save a word document and it stays for 100 hours 
for instance in the witcher you can literally follow 100’s of npcs around and observe their life. they have routines and are in different areas at different times of the day. you can go in to a small village and help these citizens and they will remember you fondly a 100 game hrs later, or you can go in and kill every one and the game remembers that as well and the town is no more, essentially becoming a ghost town
That sounds incredibly boring. Do players actually do this? These AIs are just programs, a game which asks you to treat them as living beings is having a laugh. Maybe that is why adventure games don’t bother with it. And I can safely say i have never wanted to kill everyone in a town in a game, so unfortunately the ability to do that doesn’t excite me. Sorry.
List games with those AI based puzzles or npcs, i want to play those AGs.
Text adventures is your new favourite genre.
Man, here i thought you would mention Clocktower and Nightcry etc for realzz.
;p
All of which had enemy with some AI to speak of.
You can throw in non PnCs like Outlast, Portal, Brothers , Soma too.
for instance in the witcher you can literally follow 100’s of npcs around and observe their life. they have routines and are in different areas at different times of the day. you can go in to a small village and help these citizens and they will remember you fondly a 100 game hrs later, or you can go in and kill every one and the game remembers that as well and the town is no more, essentially becoming a ghost town
That sounds incredibly boring. Do players actually do this? These AIs are just programs, a game which asks you to treat them as living beings is having a laugh. Maybe that is why adventure games don’t bother with it. And I can safely say i have never wanted to kill everyone in a town in a game, so unfortunately the ability to do that doesn’t excite me. Sorry.
Yeah your point is valid but subjective, he is pointing objective reality, its a fatigue to put that in game but gives the game more immersion, and if it was that simple other would have been successful copying it. That is immersion for many like inventory puzzles are for others, but AI is pushing the envelope not 600 puzzles that are not modular or emergent.
In shooters , rpgs, openworld games learning enemy playing style is tough, Lots of programming esp in open world games where there are 1000s of AIs. Thats why these game are rampant with bugs. And here you are comparing that scope with chess and text adventures is just a strawman.
All of you are intelligent enough to know the limits and constraints of the Devs in AG genre. Its not that AG itself is constrained but we havent pushed the genre into more bigger scope and scenarios, most of us are still stuck in Sierra/Lucas nostalgia bubble.
Now imagine for instance, NomansSky type AG where every puzzle is procedural.
For me NMS itself is to some degree survival adventure.
What worlds will be generated by it will be more satisfying to explore than Amerzone, Cyan Myst uru, obduction, Witness etc. Minus the puzzles.
Btw Gk3 gave me real hardtime even with walkthrough because guests in hotel werent following set routine.
And that again proves the immersion.
I spent hours chasing each one of them to track their movements.
Dont know if it was AI but those female couple room shift, and Emilio wandering around doing suspicious stuff all gave credibility.
Guide said this will happen but characters were following their own routine.
Even progression was score based on some puzzles not all.
Scripted or AI, gave a very living feel.
From that to Moebius and i should feel happy.
Now imagine for instance, NomansSky type AG where every puzzle is procedural.
For me NMS itself is to some degree survival adventure.
What worlds will be generated by it will be more satisfying to explore than Amerzone, Cyan Myst uru, obduction, Witness etc. Minus the puzzles.
I will believe it when I see it. My suspicion is computers cannot make more interesting worlds than humans - a “world” being inclusive of pacing, selectivity and human interest.
Now imagine for instance, NomansSky type AG where every puzzle is procedural.
For me NMS itself is to some degree survival adventure.
What worlds will be generated by it will be more satisfying to explore than Amerzone, Cyan Myst uru, obduction, Witness etc. Minus the puzzles.I will believe it when I see it. My suspicion is computers cannot make more interesting worlds than humans - a “world” being inclusive of pacing, selectivity and human interest.
http://www.ign.com/videos/2016/04/20/no-mans-sky-a-tour-of-5-beautiful-planets
Just 5, but me too want to see variations, hence i used the word explore which itself is a huge component of interest for me in AGs. Thats the reason why i remember Renslechateu or Rubacava more than most places.
These 5 worlds just look more attaractive than Obduction.
Remove that beauty of Witness and most would not bother with bajillion puzzles.
for instance in the witcher you can literally follow 100’s of npcs around and observe their life. they have routines and are in different areas at different times of the day. you can go in to a small village and help these citizens and they will remember you fondly a 100 game hrs later, or you can go in and kill every one and the game remembers that as well and the town is no more, essentially becoming a ghost town
you act like these npcs are cyborgs, instead of what they really are: some simple stored variables that say “if like then blah. if no like blah blah. Do x? then change like to no like.”
Its 100’s of npcs with much much fewer templates that draw from a very simple pool of stuff to do. Why would “100 game hrs later” ever matter as opposed to 100 million? It is what it is. Its not a feat when you save a word document and it stays for 100 hours
The distinction might be a bit fuzzy, but I believe it still exists. In the “scripted” case a script starts running after being invoked by a trigger; in the “non-scripted” case many separate scripts are running all the time. Like a tiger in Far Cry reacting to the proximity of live prey, dead prey, humans, fire, shooting, type of environment and probably other things. It can even be programmed as a kind of a neural network, with the output determined by the strengths of input signals, not as a procedural script. The term “scripted” becomes too vague then.
The upshot is that it’s impossible to tell how seemingly the same situation will play out the next time. It’s still deterministic, in a sense, but you cannot know the exact values of the inputs and don’t know how to compute the output from them (and so the next time Malachi Rector’s mom doesn’t get mauled by the tiger, and the whole of Moebius doesn’t happen. The End).
I do believe it’s possible to build some puzzles around that. As a totally random example, suppose the objective is stealing a briefcase from a plane. If the briefcase ends up being dropped from the plane (as one of many possibilities), it’s not known in advance where it happens and whether the briefcase lands in a mountain area or in a lake, as all this is being simulated in real time. The next step in retrieving it is again very different in those cases. So the game flow would go like this: plot point—sandbox—next plot point.
for instance in the witcher you can literally follow 100’s of npcs around and observe their life. they have routines and are in different areas at different times of the day. you can go in to a small village and help these citizens and they will remember you fondly a 100 game hrs later, or you can go in and kill every one and the game remembers that as well and the town is no more, essentially becoming a ghost town
you act like these npcs are cyborgs, instead of what they really are: some simple stored variables that say “if like then blah. if no like blah blah. Do x? then change like to no like.”
Its 100’s of npcs with much much fewer templates that draw from a very simple pool of stuff to do. Why would “100 game hrs later” ever matter as opposed to 100 million? It is what it is. Its not a feat when you save a word document and it stays for 100 hoursThe distinction might be a bit fuzzy, but I believe it still exists. In the “scripted” case a script starts running after being invoked by a trigger; in the “non-scripted” case many separate scripts are running all the time. Like a tiger in Far Cry reacting to the proximity of live prey, dead prey, humans, fire, shooting, type of environment and probably other things. It can even be programmed as a kind of a neural network, with the output determined by the strengths of input signals, not as a procedural script. The term “scripted” becomes too vague then.
The upshot is that it’s impossible to tell how seemingly the same situation will play out the next time. It’s still deterministic, in a sense, but you cannot know the exact values of the inputs and don’t know how to compute the output from them (and so the next time Malachi Rector’s mom doesn’t get mauled by the tiger, and the whole of Moebius doesn’t happen. The End).
I do believe it’s possible to build some puzzles around that. As a totally random example, suppose the objective is stealing a briefcase from a plane. If the briefcase ends up being dropped from the plane (as one of many possibilities), it’s not known in advance where it happens and whether the briefcase lands in a mountain area or in a lake, as all this is being simulated in real time. The next step in retrieving it is again very different in those cases. So the game flow would go like this: plot point—sandbox—next plot point.
Rat example from Dishonored or your teammate and mission interplay in mgs5, the emergent possibilities make it something else.
For e.g is there any AG where people talk about their experiences on how they solved a puzzle with thier own rulez and scenario different from other player.
Thats the sandbox playground we need.
Briefcase hunt would turn into wild goose chase, structure needs some hints of location.
Then again you can build variation.
In new Hitman they have put alot of interactive elements and solutions to achieve assassinations.
Hitman itself is a better puzzle game in which you exploit your environment to hit the goal.
Any AG lover should try Hitman episode2 Sapienza.
for instance in the witcher you can literally follow 100’s of npcs around and observe their life. they have routines and are in different areas at different times of the day. you can go in to a small village and help these citizens and they will remember you fondly a 100 game hrs later, or you can go in and kill every one and the game remembers that as well and the town is no more, essentially becoming a ghost town
you act like these npcs are cyborgs, instead of what they really are: some simple stored variables that say “if like then blah. if no like blah blah. Do x? then change like to no like.”
Its 100’s of npcs with much much fewer templates that draw from a very simple pool of stuff to do. Why would “100 game hrs later” ever matter as opposed to 100 million? It is what it is. Its not a feat when you save a word document and it stays for 100 hoursThe distinction might be a bit fuzzy, but I believe it still exists. In the “scripted” case a script starts running after being invoked by a trigger; in the “non-scripted” case many separate scripts are running all the time. Like a tiger in Far Cry reacting to the proximity of live prey, dead prey, humans, fire, shooting, type of environment and probably other things. It can even be programmed as a kind of a neural network, with the output determined by the strengths of input signals, not as a procedural script. The term “scripted” becomes too vague then.
The upshot is that it’s impossible to tell how seemingly the same situation will play out the next time. It’s still deterministic, in a sense, but you cannot know the exact values of the inputs and don’t know how to compute the output from them (and so the next time Malachi Rector’s mom doesn’t get mauled by the tiger, and the whole of Moebius doesn’t happen. The End).
I do believe it’s possible to build some puzzles around that. As a totally random example, suppose the objective is stealing a briefcase from a plane. If the briefcase ends up being dropped from the plane (as one of many possibilities), it’s not known in advance where it happens and whether the briefcase lands in a mountain area or in a lake, as all this is being simulated in real time. The next step in retrieving it is again very different in those cases. So the game flow would go like this: plot point—sandbox—next plot point.
I like where your head is at but then you have to look realistically and logically. the game you are describing would take millions of dollars to develop and a lot of man power. you have to create all the art and assets for the mountains, and the ocean and gameplay around it. then when you look closer would it be an adventure game or would it be something else like a hybrid. bc when you look at a game like la noir it is an adventure game, you go to different locations find clues solve basic puzzles and interview suspects, but then its got gta flavor mixed in between as far as driving and gun play.
as far as comparing chess to adventure games, it is only in their rigid rule design on how things are suppose to be done.
I like where your head is at but then you have to look realistically and logically. the game you are describing would take millions of dollars to develop and a lot of man power. you have to create all the art and assets for the mountains, and the ocean and gameplay around it.
I think you have pretty much explained why the likelihood of that happening is pretty much nil. Let’s say you have a game budget of $10 million. And for the briefcase scenario previously described, you have to design and create assets for an ocean, mountain and forest possibility. The actual scenario used will be randomly generated based on some sort of prior action. And each of those asset packages will cost $100k. Even though that $300k only represents 3% of the total budget, I doubt a designer would risk that, if the chance of any one of the three scenarios ever being seen by the game player is only 33.3%. More likely he or she would say “Let’s eliminate two of the three scenarios, and spend the leftover $200k to make the remaining scenario the best that it can be.
And then of course you must answer the question “how did the player find out he needed to retrieve the briefcase?” Was it via an overheard telephone conversation, a note written on a discarded scrap of paper or was it via a hacked computer message. That’s three more asset packages. And it goes on and on. There’s probably a very good reason why AGs have straight line design.
For whom the games toll,
they toll for thee.
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