[Kingzjester]

Originally Posted by mag

Wow. I don't know how you guys do it. Today's Top 20 list is even funnier than yesterday's. DOTT as the #1 adventure game of all time. That just cracks me up.

heehee...just kidding

mag

you die

[Peccable]

Originally Posted by tabacco

He's a secret staff writer

Wait. I'm secret now?

Why does no one tell me these things? Did I miss a memo or something?

Oh well.

-- d, putting a paper bag over his head.

[Mattsius]

Good one, mag!

Seriously though, I wouldn't put DOTT on the first place, but I guess I'll save my criticism for the next TOP 20 Adventure Games of All-Time feature. If I remember correctly Evan had his share of "constructive" criticism back in late 2002/early 2003.

[suprdave]

Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis (and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade for that matter) takes too much crap from "you people". Please take "you people" to mean the crazed adventure game nazis on the site.

Those are two of the games I have the fondest memories of from my youth. I like the pure adventure game too, but I am not adverse to some action elements when they are well blended and fun, as they were in the non-Tomb Raider versions of the Indiana Jones games.

On a side note, it is getting far easier to boycott LucasArts because they make pretty much "crap only" products now, like the afore mentioned Tomb Raider Indy knockoffs.

[Moron Lite]

Hrm. While DOTT may be a perfectly executed game, it nevertheless doesn't reach the same heights that other adventure games have, imho.

Very glad to see Lost Files of Sherlock Holmes on there, though.

[Kingzjester]

Originally Posted by Peccable

Wait. I'm secret now?

Why does no one tell me these things? Did I miss a memo or something?

Oh well.

-- d, putting a paper bag over his head.

I liked your Diakaktana thing. Evan's reviews were tolerable, but you just can't beat Lolita.

[BacardiJim]

Hrmmmm.....


Certain people like to point at a certain other adventure game site and make references to how they are "practically owned" by The Adventure Company. Yet I look at this new Top 20 list and I see that eight of the 20 games all come from the same company. In fact, the only three adventure games from that company to not make the list were the controversial MI4, The Dig and the archaic Loom. However, nowhere do I see mention of such titles as Myst, Riven, The Neverhood, Black Dahlia, , The Feeble Files, The Blackstone Chronicles, Amber, Obsidian, Riddle of Master Lu, Spycraft, the Journeyman Project games, the Discworld games, the Zork games or even Sanitarium. Neither is there any mention of Syberia, which a LOT of people consider the greatest adventure game ever. (Though I personally found it a triumph of style over substance.)

Yet despite these notable exclusions, eight games from the same company are considered among the 20 greatest adventure games of all time.

Perhaps Evan should think twice before he points the "corporate shill" finger at anyone else.

[Kingzjester]

Whose fault is it exactly that Lucas Arts held the monopoly on adventure game quality for the bigger part of the 90s? Quotas are an evil thing. I remember though Evan saying he has not played any Discworld games.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Kingzjester

Whose fault is it exactly that Lucas Arts held the monopoly on adventure game quality for the bigger part of the 90s? Quotas are an evil thing. I remember though Evan saying he has not played any Discworld games.

Well, my top 20 would include a bunch of Lucas AGs too, but 8 LA and 5 Sierra games... you have to admit it doesn't leave much place for other adventure games.
Maybe a max of two or three games per company would make up for a more colourful list... Oh well, this feature was great anyway, and LA is the best, so 8-) .

EDIT: WAS the best.

[Kingzjester]

Originally Posted by Ninth

EDIT: WAS the best.

HAHAHHAHhahhahahahah!

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Sad, isn't? Still, one must laugh.

[mag]

Originally Posted by Mattsius
Seriously though, I wouldn't put DOTT on the first place, but I guess I'll save my criticism for the next TOP 20 Adventure Games of All-Time feature. If I remember correctly Evan had his share of "constructive" criticism back in late 2002/early 2003.

I wouldn't put DOTT at number one either, but I think there's certainly an argument to be made for it being number one. I don't agree with a lot of the list, but it's not like you can make a list like this without getting a lot of people mad. So I guess Evan's is about as good as any.

Originally Posted by Bicardi Jim
Certain people like to point at a certain other adventure game site and make references to how they are "practically owned" by The Adventure Company. Yet I look at this new Top 20 list and I see that eight of the 20 games all come from the same company. In fact, the only three adventure games from that company to not make the list were the controversial MI4, The Dig and the archaic Loom. However, nowhere do I see mention of such titles as Myst, Riven, The Neverhood, Black Dahlia, , The Feeble Files, The Blackstone Chronicles, Amber, Obsidian, Riddle of Master Lu, Spycraft, the Journeyman Project games, the Discworld games, the Zork games or even Sanitarium. Neither is there any mention of Syberia, which a LOT of people consider the greatest adventure game ever.

Like others have pointed out, LucasArts was such a huge factor in the adventure genre it's almost impossible not to have that many LucasArts games on this kind of list. Syberia probably didn't make the list just because it was too new at the time. I definitely think Myst should be on there, though, for its historical importance if nothing else.

mag

[remixor]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

Hrmmmm.....


Certain people like to point at a certain other adventure game site and make references to how they are "practically owned" by The Adventure Company. Yet I look at this new Top 20 list and I see that eight of the 20 games all come from the same company. In fact, the only three adventure games from that company to not make the list were the controversial MI4, The Dig and the archaic Loom. However, nowhere do I see mention of such titles as Myst, Riven, The Neverhood, Black Dahlia, , The Feeble Files, The Blackstone Chronicles, Amber, Obsidian, Riddle of Master Lu, Spycraft, the Journeyman Project games, the Discworld games, the Zork games or even Sanitarium. Neither is there any mention of Syberia, which a LOT of people consider the greatest adventure game ever. (Though I personally found it a triumph of style over substance.)

Yet despite these notable exclusions, eight games from the same company are considered among the 20 greatest adventure games of all time.

Perhaps Evan should think twice before he points the "corporate shill" finger at anyone else.

A few of the games you mentioned are worth taking into consideration, but most of them just do one or two things well and otherwise have no real impact or significance on the genre (with the obvious exception of Myst, which is another whole discussion I don't feel like having right now). Also, the Zork games (unless you're talking about the graphical ones, which aren't as influential) were text adventures and the domain of Adventure Gamers is graphic adventures. Also, regarding Syberia, as Evan states in his Top 20, he rarely puts brand new games on the countdown because it is important to see how they stand up over time. Syberia had recently been released when he wrote the Top 20. Even so, there's no guarantee it would have made it on; as you say, it's very much a case of style over substance.

Yes, 8 games from the same company are considered among the top 20 of all time, at least from one person's perspective, because just about every one of those games was extraordinarily unique and extremely polished and well-produced. There's no question that when you bought a LEC adventure game between about 1991 and 1998, it would be of a certain standard of quality practically unmatched in the industry. By the way, Evan is known for not even being a huge LEC fan (certainly compared to many on these boards); if you were to ask him to list his personal favorite adventures, I guarantee it would be a much different list. He was doing his best to evaluate the games on all their characteristics as well as a certain degree of historical importance and, while there's obviously no way one could ever claim such a list is definitive, I believe it just worked out such that LEC was the company best represented. Their games were just really damn good.

[Pappapisshu]

Isn't Beneath a Steel Sky his favourite game? I think that was what he said when he put it at number seventeen, or something, on the list.

I can't be bothered with checking it at the moment, but my memory of useless things usually don't fail me.

Originally Posted by BacardiJim
In fact, the only three adventure games from that company to not make the list were the controversial MI4, The Dig and the archaic Loom

To name a few others, Curse of Monkey Island, Zak McKraken and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade(I'm a LucasArts and a Indy junkie but I have to admit that this games pretty weak).

You have some good points though. I thought The Feeble Files or one of the Simon games should have gotten a mention.

BTW, I wasn't around here when the original list was published, which games were in it that were left out in the current incarnation?

[Kingzjester]

Originally Posted by lemonhead11

To name a few others, Curse of Monkey Island, Zak McKraken and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade(I'm a LucasArts and a Indy junkie but I have to admit that this games pretty weak).

You have some good points though. I thought The Feeble Files or one of the Simon games should have gotten a mention.

BTW, I wasn't around here when the original list was published, which games were in it that were left out in the current incarnation?

The old, old one was not worth mentioning. This one has had its baptism by fire and forked tongues about a year and a few months ago if I am not mistaken. December 2002?

[Stinger]

Originally Posted by Kingzjester

The old, old one was not worth mentioning. This one has had its baptism by fire and forked tongues about a year and a few months ago if I am not mistaken. December 2002?

Kingz is correct (now please allow me a moment to melt into a pile of goo and regenerate for having spoken those words). This list is a year and three months old right now. It would certainly change if I were to write it again today. Monkey Island 2 would probably be quite a bit higher, Maniac Mansion would almost certainly not be around, I would give a lot more thought to Sanitarium having a position on the list (I was unable to properly play it before writing this countdown, despite my best efforts), and...yes...I think I may bump Grim Fandango up a couple spots. I got raked over the coals by everyone and my mother for this list, which of course was to be expected, and while I'm not in the business of changing opinions based on reader demand, there was a lot of very constructive criticism that caused me to rethink it. I expect to write a new version in 2005, and I expect there to be sweeping changes as new games come out and old games prove to have been overrated. But I expect to be torn to bite-sized pieces no matter what, and that's fine, as long as I get people thinking and talking. I still had fun writing it.

The old, OLD list, written by me in December of 1999, was full of cheery good intentions but not much else. Maniac Mansion was #8, Space Quest 4 was #10, Grim Fandango was #13, Broken Sword was #17, and Willy Beamish was #18. Not for wont of trying, I assure you, I just have learned a lot about criticism since then and continue to learn. So if my list got THAT much better in three years, imagine how good it could be in 2005, now that I've finally entered that wonderful phase in life where I begin to grow facial hair!

I'll just let everyone know, also, that I have absolutely no intention of posting further response to criticism of this list. It is old, old, OLD news, and as I'm sure Jim would be the first to tell us, your worldview when you're 23 is night and day from your worldview when you're 21-and-a-half. Everything you can possibly say about it, I've already heard, except with more profanity. I spent Christmas morning in 2002 answering flame e-mails about ranking Grim Fandango #7 while my parents ate cinnamon rolls and watched the parade on TV. So if your opinion is anything other than "Wow, you're exactly right on all 20 counts!" I've already heard and responded to it, and I apologize that you weren't here at that time, and encourage you to look forward to late 2005.

That was all way too long. Sorry.

By the way, Kingz, to have you say my reviews were "tolerable" was absolutely the greatest compliment I could ever receive, and I mean that with all dead sincerity. I knew your heart was beating for me somewhere beneath that tough exterior.

"Wow, you're exactly right on all 20 counts!"

[mycroft]

Originally Posted by Peccable

Wait. I'm secret now?

Why does no one tell me these things? Did I miss a memo or something?

Oh well.

-- d, putting a paper bag over his head.

Sir, allow me to congratulate you on your excellent piece of work. Slouching towards Bedlam was the most fun I've had in IF in a little while. Congratulations.

[Ariel Type]

Neat. 8 adventures by Lucas Arts, 6 from Sierra, 2 from Revolution. I agree with BacardiJim, there is some kind of..how to say...adventures on a pop-scene, that's it. There were so much of other great adventures, like Feeble Files, Goblins series, Legend of Kyrandia, Zork Garnd Inquisitor, lots of marvelous Legend adventures (TimeQuest, Erick the Unready, Gateway series, Death Gate are just masterpeices), Myst at last (which just has to be in TOP 20, though I personally dislike it). The only thing that's OK - no Syberia in TOP. Though I guess it'll be in the next one.
Also the order of the games in the TOP is strange. Of course, I can't argue about the first place as it looks like a matter of personal taste that can't be changed, but Longest Journey higher than Full Throttle and Monkey Island 2, which are at the end? Broken Sword higher then Gabriel Knight, Sam and Max, MI2? And KQ1 in the TOP, on the 10th place for just being the 2nd graphical adventure with the enchanted graphics, but without any other pluces? I just don't understand all this system...