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Old 04-03-2004, 06:32 AM   #61
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[IMO]At least one of the Kyrandia games should be in top 10,(probably the third one).
A Larry game should also be included. And latter two GK games should not be neglected. [/IMO]
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Old 04-03-2004, 08:43 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vel
[IMO]At least one of the Kyrandia games should be in top 10,(probably the third one).
A Larry game should also be included. And latter two GK games should not be neglected. [/IMO]
Well, now I've gone and broken my promise about not responding to feedback, but this is worth addressing: there is an article I wrote as a Top 20 followup that included, among other things, a list of the games I had slotted 21-30. This list includes Conquests of the Longbow, the next two GK games, and Kyrandia 3, which I like even more today than I did when I wrote the list.

It also includes full disclosure of the games people brought up during the resulting discussions that I had been unable to play before compiling the list, including Discworld Noir (I don't believe the first two games are Top 20 material), Sanitarium (which I have since remedied), Cruise for a Corpse (ditto), and Sherlock Holmes: Rose Tattoo.

I'm sure someone can come up with an archive.org link to this article.

I like all the Larry games very much, but would have a very, very difficult time making a case for any of them being anywhere near the Top 20. Today, I think I maybe could put LSL3 somewhere 25-40, but that's it. Same with the Police Quest series, which is absolutely my favorite PC game series ever, but there aren't any really great games in the series.

I liked Legend's adventures, but there's nothing there I would consider Top 20 material. I plan on replaying Death Gate again soon though, as some who I respect have told me my judgment erred on that one.

Syberia will never make the Top 20. I'm as big a fan of Syberia as anyone, but there's no valid argument for it to be considered one of the truly elite adventures ever. It's just the best adventure since TLJ.

And by the way, there were really only two reasons I wrote this Top 20. 1) To get people talking about old adventure games, and 2) To make people think about how they would rank the greatest adventures ever. This isn't any sort of "The List" or anything, I'm just a critic and a fan like everyone else, and you're all free to write your own lists; in fact I would encourage it.

And finally, before I really do retire from adventure games forever, allow me a moment to cackle hysterically at the notion of something from the Gobliiins series being in the Top 20.

- Evan
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Old 04-03-2004, 08:55 AM   #63
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I remember that article, but my question is - will the forementioned games make the top 20 this time? In my opinion, the plots of "The beast within" and "Blood of the sacred, blood of the damned" were much more solid and realistic than this of "Sins of the fathers". Also, Kyrandia 3 is far better than Pepper's adventure in time and "The pandora detective", which made it to the top 20. And will there by another list this year?
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Old 04-03-2004, 11:47 AM   #64
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First of all, Evan, congratulations on doing a top-20 adventure games list. I think I would have placed the Longest Journey, and Grim Fandango both a little higher. I must admit though that I've not played some of the other games on the list, especially Beneath A Steel Sky, but the way you described it makes it sound like it's really entertaining. I'll have to download it sometime. I'm actually surprised that you chose Day of The Tentacle as the greatest adventure game of all time. I'll have to play that game again someday to see what's so great about it. Don't worry, I'm not dissing you for making that choice.

Very enjoyable read, Evan, and I hope you make another list again sometime.
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Old 04-03-2004, 01:04 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vel
And will there by another list this year?
2005, like he said
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Old 04-04-2004, 02:31 AM   #66
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/me waits
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Old 04-04-2004, 05:56 AM   #67
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about DOTT being in the first place - just one question to all the "LucasArts has 8 adventures, Stinger is a corporate whore" people - What other game would have YOU put in the first place?

There is no OTHER game deserving the 1st place.


Anyway, Evan, congrats on making such a neat list. There are only 5 adventures that should have been put in there.
1. Myst - I'm not a fan but since Maniac Mansion is there for historical value then Myst should be there too.
2. Sanitarium - one of my personal favourites.
3. Simon 1 - this is one of the 21-30th place in your list, I believe. Anyway, it's worth putting on the list.
4. Discworld 1 - one of the most hilarious game EVER!
5. Curse of Monkey Island - again it should be one of the 21-30th games.

By the way, did you notice that there were NO FMV games?

Anyway, Evan, hope you have a TOP 50 ready by X-mas.
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Old 04-04-2004, 06:40 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidWizard
about DOTT being in the first place - just one question to all the "LucasArts has 8 adventures, Stinger is a corporate whore" people - What other game would have YOU put in the first place?

There is no OTHER game deserving the 1st place.
Although I'm not one of the "LucasArts has 8 adventures, Stinger is a corporate whore" people, I still feel that DOTT isn't worthy of the 1st place. My choice for numero uno? Well, it's never easy to put games in an order of excellence, but TLJ would be a possibility for me or GK3 perhaps, but at the end there wouldn't really be any doubt; Grim Fandango is, and probably always will be, the best adventure game ever made.
This is my personal opinion and anyone who feels like criticizing my choice is welcome to.
Quote:
By the way, did you notice that there were NO FMV games?
Maybe that's because most FMV games are more or less crap...
Quote:
Anyway, Evan, hope you have a TOP 50 ready by X-mas.
Don't hold your breath...
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Old 04-04-2004, 06:58 AM   #69
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Let me be the second designer to address you, Stinger, with the fact that I am hugely disappointed that the classic "Moloch" didn't make it to the top 20 of all time. Surely the most underestimated adventuregame of our time.
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Old 04-04-2004, 07:41 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
Syberia will never make the Top 20. I'm as big a fan of Syberia as anyone, but there's no valid argument for it to be considered one of the truly elite adventures ever. It's just the best adventure since TLJ.
Although....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan's review of Runaway
...right now the answer is, Runaway is absolutely one of the top twenty adventures ever.
Sounds like Runaway isn't standing the test of time. Poor, poor Runaway.

Funny thing about list criticism is that people usually just offer games that SHOULD be on it, without daring to say what DOESN'T belong. Really the safest course would just to up the ante to the Top 165 to cover pretty much any game worth mentioning.
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Old 04-04-2004, 07:43 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattsius
Well, it's never easy to put games in an order of excellence, but TLJ would be a possibility for me or GK3 perhaps, but at the end there wouldn't really be any doubt; Grim Fandango is, and probably always will be, the best adventure game ever made.
This is my personal opinion and anyone who feels like criticizing my choice is welcome to.
I definitely wouldn't put TLJ down as a possibility for best ever, because I believe it lacks to many things that a great adventure game should have. It's almost completely linear and there's not a great deal in the puzzle design. I couldn't comment on GK3 because I have never played it, save for the demo.

Grim is a personal favourite of mine also, maybe even my all time favourite, but that's not to say I think it should be declared the best ever.

I think that the choice of DOTT is a good one, because it's pretty much the full package, and certainly has the cleverest puzzles i've ever seen.
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Old 04-04-2004, 08:27 AM   #72
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One thing that GK3 and GF have over DOTT is a deep plot, not one taken out of a cartoon.
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Old 04-04-2004, 10:08 AM   #73
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Quote:
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One thing that GK3 and GF have over DOTT is a deep plot, not one taken out of a cartoon.
That pretty much was my point. For me, adventure games should have a deep plot and story, DOTT lacks that and therefore it will never be number one in my book. TLJ, GK3 and GF on the other hand all have great plots. I'm not saying that the plot is everything and the rest should be neglected. I'm just saying that a game that so seriously lacks a good plot as DOTT does, can't be the best adventure game ever. It's definitely TOP 10 material, maybe even TOP 5, but not more than that.
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Old 04-04-2004, 10:11 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Seed
I think that the choice of DOTT is a good one, because it's pretty much the full package, and certainly has the cleverest puzzles i've ever seen.
Didn't this website claim to value plot over puzzles? I haven't finished DOTT, but the story does not appear to take itself very seriously, even though it is enjoyable.
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Old 04-04-2004, 10:15 AM   #75
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Quote:
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Didn't this website claim to value plot over puzzles? I haven't finished DOTT, but the story does not appear to take itself very seriously, even though it is enjoyable.
Stories that take themselves too seriously are by default bad stories. On that note, DOTT does a freakishly good job of making puzzles story-relevant and vice-cersa. The puzzles are just not hurdles in the way of your progress as is the case in Syberia for example.
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Old 04-04-2004, 11:02 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vel
One thing that GK3 and GF have over DOTT is a deep plot, not one taken out of a cartoon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattsius
That pretty much was my point. For me, adventure games should have a deep plot and story, DOTT lacks that and therefore it will never be number one in my book.
Just because an adventure game has a cartoon plot, it doesn't automatically make it any less valid. It's not just the story that's important, it's the way it's told, and DOTT tells it's story very well.
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Old 04-04-2004, 02:40 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singer
Although....



Sounds like Runaway isn't standing the test of time. Poor, poor Runaway.
Well, he's already rescinded that statement, but either way the current Top 20 was written long before there was an English version of Runaway.
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Old 04-04-2004, 02:44 PM   #78
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Man, Runaway didn't even stand the test of time while I was playing it for the first (and last) time.
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Old 04-04-2004, 02:44 PM   #79
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Man, Runaway didn't even stand the test of time while I was playing it for the first (and last) time.
Same here!
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Old 04-04-2004, 03:10 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Seed
Just because an adventure game has a cartoon plot, it doesn't automatically make it any less valid. It's not just the story that's important, it's the way it's told, and DOTT tells it's story very well.
I agree that the story is well told, but I feel that it’s not enough. DOTT is funny as hell and the story supports that very well, but to get a really great and epic adventure you also need emotion. And when I talk about emotion I also mean other forms of emotion than laughter and happiness. GF, TLJ and GK3 all include almost the whole emotion repertoire and DOTT doesn’t. It’s that simple.
Take a comedy film for example, it’s unbelievably funny when you watch it and you go out of the movie theater with a big smile on your face, but you forget it fairly soon. That’s a lot like DOTT. If you look at a movie with more depth and different kinds of emotion you tend to remember it longer and ponder about what happened in the film and what it was trying to say to its audience. More often than not that doesn’t happen with a comedy.

There are good moments in DOTT that you remember though, like the three presidents and Ben Franklin, for example. The humor is great and the intro a classic. Kingz said that the puzzles are very "story-relevant" and I must agree on that, but as much as I would like to say that this game is flawless, I can't. It has its lows just like it has its highs, although there definitely is more of the latter.

Well, my ramblings might not make much sense. It's in the middle of the night when I'm writing this, but if there's anything weird in the text I'll get back to you tomorrow.
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