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Old 12-15-2005, 01:10 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giligan
some fan games are poorly made, I'll say that. But anyone who would use that as an excuse to write off all fan games as crap is a closed-minded fool.
I've yet to play one that is remotely engaging, aside from Cirque. Oh, and the Case Of The Crabs was above mediocre. But really, from what I've seen and from what I've played (about ten), fan games are just testaments to series' gone by that are infinitely better and infinitely more enjoyable than the fan-game made in recollection. Heck, if something original was made I'd be rather keener to play fan creations. Case Of The Crabs impressed me in this regard, but it seems to be in the minority.
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Old 12-15-2005, 01:12 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormsie
Let me focus on the "shoddy old engine" -point.

What do you MEAN?! Old? AGS is updated all the time! WME is updated all the time! Sludge is, too! And every other engine! And how are they "shoddy"? They're fast! They don't crash! They're easy to use for the developers! In fact SCUMM is more shoddy than AGS!

If you mean that game makers want to make their games low-res, well... It's not the engine's fault. Many developesrs prefer low-res, because it lowers the file size for internet distribution, for example. They also like the retro look. I'd like to see more high-res games, btw. AGS can handle 800*600 (at least), WME 1024*768 or higher.

And finally.

...

Who would publish a low-res game these days? Who would publish an adventure game? You can clearly see that most commercial ags haven't been very succesful. And amateur game developers want to make the games free for everyone.
Right. I'm not disputing the fact that they have good intentions at heart, or the fact that they're free, but they're still crap in my mind.
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Old 12-15-2005, 01:14 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giligan
some fan games are poorly made, I'll say that. But anyone who would use that as an excuse to write off all fan games as crap is a closed-minded fool.
Take genres. Someone who loves FPS games may find RPG's an exercise in frustration. They'll say: "by gee, RPG's royally suck!" Certainly, there may be the occasional game in the genre that comes along and peaks their interest, but the latter is in the minority, and thus, generalizations are made.
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Old 12-15-2005, 01:33 PM   #64
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Well so far you've got no valid points that all fan games are crap. So not much of a conversation here if you just say you hate fan games and don't actually explain in detail why.

EDIT: And why do you make so many posts to each endividual reply?

EDIT #2:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioSoldier
Take genres. Someone who loves FPS games may find RPG's an exercise in frustration. They'll say: "by gee, RPG's royally suck!" Certainly, there may be the occasional game in the genre that comes along and peaks their interest, but the latter is in the minority, and thus, generalizations are made.

And is the Adventure genre as big as the FPS genre? No, thats why there would be more generalization for a much more popular genre.
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Old 12-15-2005, 01:38 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
Well so far you've got no valid points that all fan games are crap. So not much of a conversation here if you just say you hate fan games and don't actually explain in detail why.

EDIT: And why do you make so many posts to each endividual reply?
Clichéd plots, inane puzzles, woeful visuals, poor audio… Many just smack of games gone by. I'd rather not play a title created by a less-talented team that simply borrows ideas and rehashes it all in an amateurish mess.
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Old 12-15-2005, 01:39 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
Well so far you've got no valid points that all fan games are crap. So not much of a conversation here if you just say you hate fan games and don't actually explain in detail why.

EDIT: And why do you make so many posts to each endividual reply?

EDIT #2:




And is the Adventure genre as big as the FPS genre? No, thats why there would be more generalization for a much more popular genre.
Because, if I didn't, people would accuse me of avoiding their points and questions. And I enjoy answering the posts.
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Old 12-15-2005, 01:44 PM   #67
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Well, it can be done in one post ya know.

Amateurish? There are so many amateur developers around the community that have accepted employment for game making companies, A artist from the Hero6 project got a job at Blizzard Software because of the work she did. So our 'amateurs' could be tomorows 'pros'.

EDIT: Fixed typo.
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Old 12-15-2005, 01:45 PM   #68
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Worms was what you define as a "fan game" once.

Anyway, "fan games" or "amateur games" are made because some people just like to make a game in their spare time. Not everything is created to make money out of it, so give them some respect. There are some really good "fan games" out there, like Out Of Order (one of my favourites) and Cirque. There's also a bunch of great remakes, like Maniac Mansion Deluxe and/or King's Quest 1 and 2.

You're already disproved your statement by actually admitting you liked a couple of games. Because, like in the commercial market, there's only 1% or so that's really good. The rest is shit. Are commercial games shit too then?
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Old 12-15-2005, 01:46 PM   #69
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AudioSoldier, could you please try not to post so many messages in a row? Thanks.

I cannot help but think that you are arguing for the sake of arguing. You say that amateur games will never be able to gain much popularity (as if it was in direct relation to quality), and next you are criticising KQIX The Silver Lining for doing exactly that. You try to present hobbyist developers as people "flatly turned down" by publishers, and on the next page claim that you are not disputing the fact that "they have good intentions at heart" and want to make their games free.

And all of that, nicely avoiding saying pretty much anything about what in fangames do you hate so much.

Last one thing, just so you know: Agustin's game is going to be published commercially.
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Old 12-15-2005, 01:51 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP
AudioSoldier, could you please try not to post so many messages in a row? Thanks.

I cannot help but think that you are arguing for the sake of arguing. You say that amateur games will never be able to gain much popularity (as if it was in direct relation to quality), and next you are criticising KQIX The Silver Lining for doing exactly that. You try to present hobbyist developers as people "flatly turned down" by publishers, and on the next page claim that you are not disputing the fact that "they have good intentions at heart" and want to make their games free.

And all of that, nicely avoiding saying pretty much anything about what in fangames do you hate so much.

Last one thing, just so you know: Agustin's game is going to be published commercially.
My thats fantastic news. Any game can get published as long as you can get a hard working creative team and an original idea. And a great end product of course. I've spoken to small time publishers before about publishing adventure games and most of them liked the idea. (wouldent it be funny if EA games published an Amateur adventure game? that'd be funny.)
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Old 12-15-2005, 02:00 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire
My thats fantastic news. Any game can get published as long as you can get a hard working creative team and an original idea. And a great end product of course. I've spoken to small time publishers before about publishing adventure games and most of them liked the idea. (wouldent it be funny if EA games published an Amateur adventure game? that'd be funny.)
Well, it was intended that way since the beginning, as far as I know. Check here and here to learn more if you haven't heard of Scratches.
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Old 12-15-2005, 02:00 PM   #72
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Wasn't Darkfall, The Journal independently created? I loved that game.
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Old 12-15-2005, 02:15 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by natalia
Wasn't Darkfall, The Journal independently created? I loved that game.
I'm sure it was, I'm not 100% sure.
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Old 12-15-2005, 02:28 PM   #74
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the only trouble with fan games is that the creators don't think up a new plot, they use an old one. then, of course, you compare the two, and obviously the fan game seems bad. I would suggest you take that in mind and consider how good the fan game is before comparing it with the original..
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Old 12-15-2005, 03:01 PM   #75
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Kings Quest 2 is among the best adventure games in past years, and I don't see a reason why it should be called "amateurish" and "non-professional" just because it was presented as a freeware fan remake.
It's a professional game that is worth buying, despite that pile of junk that many companies try to sell every year, so-called "adventures".
J. Boakes is another great example of independant game, and it is great that he made it more or less popular selling it. Out of Order, which was also supposed to be sold, is a professional game by a talanted developer. And what will come out of KQ9 - you can only dream..
Stupid statement, espessially today, when there are hardly any adventures on the market (im real adventures).
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Old 12-15-2005, 03:26 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioSoldier
Clichéd plots, inane puzzles, woeful visuals, poor audio… Many just smack of games gone by. I'd rather not play a title created by a less-talented team that simply borrows ideas and rehashes it all in an amateurish mess.
I see that you're not repeating the claim about "badly written English and piss-poor dialogue", having been called on it. Let's see if we can deal with this new nonsense:

Clichéd plots? No-Action Jackson is about a D&D nerd who has to use his geek powers to clear his friends' schedules for some roleplaying action. Don't think I've seen that before. Two of a Kind is set in a city where every person has a different super power (and you have to take them into account in the game). That may not be completely original (Jackson could no doubt cite precedents in comic books and SF novels), but I'm pretty sure it hasn't ever been used in an adventure game. Grr! Bearly Sane is about an amusement park employee who has a nervous breakdown and goes on a homicidal rampage. Not exactly King's Quest.

Inane puzzles? All of the above games feature a good mix of solid puzzles. Just consider the final puzzle in Two of a Kind:

Spoiler:
A demon is about to open some unpleasant portal. You have to draw a pentagram on a sticker (using a pink crayon), then levitate over and pin it on his back. When the ritual is complete, the demon gets sucked into the pentagram instead of what he intended to happen.
It makes sense in context of the story, it builds on a previous puzzle and can be figured out, but it requires some lateral thinking. It takes advantage of the unique skills and personalities of the characters you play. It's not too hard and not too easy. It's a great puzzle.

Woeful visuals? That's how you want to describe the Apprentice games? No-Action Jackson, woeful visuals? Even Enclosure made good use of its AGI graphics.

Poor audio? Listen to Apprentice II and Ben Jordan 3 again, will you? BJ3 has some of the most striking, atmospheric and memorable music of any adventure game I've ever played. It not only rivals commercial games, it surpasses most of them. 5 Days a Stranger and Stranger By Midnight used sound effects very effectively to similar ends, while the weakest spot in KQ2VGA's voice acting is arguably Josh Mandel, the original voice for Graham. (Sorry, Josh!)

As for smacking of "games gone by", that's kind of the point of a fan game. It's retro. Also, a lot of people feel that the adventure games in those bygone days were superior to the commercial adventures on offer these days. All games build on what has been done before; if your inspiration is the best that has been done in the genre, and those games happen to be ten years old, your game is going to have a classic feel. That said, there are games that break away from the traditional mold. In META you have to actually go in and edit the code for the game you're playing, deal with a windows application and an annoying desktop assistant. Pretty unique gameplay, you'll have to admit.

In fact, none of the best amateur adventures can in fairness be described as an amateurish mess or a rehash of borrowed ideas. They each have their strong points and their weak points (I wouldn't play Cirque de Zale for its puzzles, or Ben Jordan 3 for its originality), but overall they're damn good adventure games with a lot of personality, and a clear testimony of the talent of the people who made them.
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Last edited by After a brisk nap; 12-15-2005 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 12-15-2005, 03:40 PM   #77
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I just wanted to point this out:

You know what the very first games were? Fan games, essentially. Way back when, everyone made games in their basement. Roberta and Ken Williams made their first game by themselves and sold it from their house. I suppose that's the difference there, they actually asked for money for it? Sounds to me like fangames are simply getting back to gaming roots...

Also, just to clarify is it only fan *adventures* that you knock down, Audio, or fangames in all genres? After all, I think I remember some FPS fan creation a few years ago being pretty commercial-quality and popular... Counter-Strike, I believe it's called...

Lastly, I'll say that graphic quality is in the eye of the beholder. I will, quite seriously, take low-res but artistic amateur graphics with their own style over the generally sterile and same-y feel of most modern commercial 3D graphics any day.

In fact, the screens I've seen of KQ9 are one of the very, very few instances of 3D graphics I've ever seen that I completely enjoy looking at, and that's *including* commercial games.

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Old 12-15-2005, 04:04 PM   #78
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This is the most pointless thread I've seen on AG in quite some time.
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:41 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Gantefoehr
This is the most pointless thread I've seen on AG in quite some time.
... says the former "null pointer". (It's certainly the most poorly contested.)
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:53 PM   #80
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I just wanted to point out that (being an animator) it's not like game companies are kicking down my door to hire me. Jesus, man it's hard as hell to get a job in the field right now. Basically what you have to do is work on projects that will give you little to no pay. (the latter most often) Seems to be independant or FanGame companies that need people who have little to no game making experience. I've personally worked on a few independant games and found the teams to be very professional and driven on the projects.

Oops gotta go, seems the guys at Blizzard are at the door, probably just want to grab me for the next Warcraft installment.
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