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-   -   "Fan games are bad." (https://adventuregamers.com/archive/forums/ag-underground-freeware-adventures/12329-fan-games-bad.html)

AudioSoldier 12-14-2005 04:25 PM

"Fan games are bad."
 
Fan games are shit. Full stop. Why? Because the teams lack the necessary resources. Moreover, anyone good enough to make a half-decent game is likely to be already employed, considering the videogame world is as increasingly popular as it is. And don't try and tell me that anyone working on any fangame would turn down a position working for a games company.

Wormsie 12-14-2005 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioSoldier
Fan games are shit. Full stop. Why? Because the teams lack the necessary resources. Moreover, anyone good enough to make a half-decent game is likely to be already employed, considering the videogame world is as increasingly popular as it is. And don't try and tell me that anyone working on any fangame would turn down a position working for a games company.

Maybe they would. Let's say you have a good writer, who wants to make an adventure game.

There's your problem. No game studio would let him make one! There's no other route than going independent. Besides, look at projects such as Rise of the Hidden Sun. The developer has been employed by the comics industry (if I remember correctly) but these days he does something different for a living (beats me what). He works on the game on his spare time.

And btw, I think this is pretty good art.

http://herculeaneffort.adventuredeve...omic_test3.png

And this fangame (or to be more precise, amateur adventure game, as it's not a sequel to an existing franchise or anything) contains pretty good music. And other stuff is pretty good, too. It's better than half-decent at least.

Besides, you make it sound as if development studios are desperately hunting for workforce, promising them gold and diamonds for making games, but in fact, the workers are pretty much cattle. Baaa!

AudioSoldier 12-14-2005 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wormsie
Maybe they would. Let's say you have a good writer, who wants to make an adventure game.

There's your problem. No game studio would let him make one! There's no other route than going independent. Besides, look at projects such as Rise of the Hidden Sun. The developer has been employed by the comics industry (if I remember correctly) but these days he does something different for a living (beats me what). He works on the game on his spare time.

And btw, I think this is pretty good art.

http://herculeaneffort.adventuredeve...omic_test3.png

And this fangame (or to be more precise, amateur adventure game, as it's not a sequel to an existing franchise or anything) contains pretty good music. And other stuff is pretty good, too. It's better than half-decent at least.

Besides, you make it sound as if development studios are desperately hunting for workforce, promising them gold and diamonds for making games, but in fact, the workers are pretty much cattle. Baaa!

My point is that I have no reason to raise my hopes for a game that looks resolutely substandard based on the fact that it may contain some "good music", or some "good artwork". Games created by established companies push the boundaries of excellence by their sheer technical abilities. Adventure games are in the shit-creek they are because few wish to play titles that are as technically deficient, idea-defunct and inanely boring as the titles we're fished at irregularly intervals. Yes, there are smatterings of good ideas lodged underneath terrible voice-work, shoddy animations and laugh-inducing music. Adventure titles will only succeed if they stand firmly in the sands of comedy, or break barriers with innovative intent: Indigo Prophecy, for instance.

And, like a friend of mine pointed out, people are disinterested in this genre – fangame or not – because gameplay portions are buried in horribly contrived and badly conceived plots that sap at your enjoyment of things. I await Dreamfall with interest.

AudioSoldier 12-14-2005 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wormsie
Maybe they would. Let's say you have a good writer, who wants to make an adventure game.

There's your problem. No game studio would let him make one! There's no other route than going independent. Besides, look at projects such as Rise of the Hidden Sun. The developer has been employed by the comics industry (if I remember correctly) but these days he does something different for a living (beats me what). He works on the game on his spare time.

And btw, I think this is pretty good art.

http://herculeaneffort.adventuredeve...omic_test3.png

And this fangame (or to be more precise, amateur adventure game, as it's not a sequel to an existing franchise or anything) contains pretty good music. And other stuff is pretty good, too. It's better than half-decent at least.

Besides, you make it sound as if development studios are desperately hunting for workforce, promising them gold and diamonds for making games, but in fact, the workers are pretty much cattle. Baaa!

Any excellent writer should be able to create something worthy of game material for just about any company. Because, you see, good writers are in short supply, and there are rather more John Carmack's in the world than Al Lowe's, or Tim Schafer's for that matter. Heck, perhaps Carmack is a bad example, but I'm trying to illustrate the point that there are more chip-monkeys in the business than creative writing minds with luscious scripts flowing from their every pore.

Why? Because, in its present state, this media is scorned by literary minds. The day I see Tom Wolfe, John Updike and co. creating stories solely for a game, I'll walk naked down my suburban lane and sing a song of fairies.

Edit: Actually, I would go as far as to say that writers have barely allowed their minds to rest on our hobby. There is potential to create a game that immerses you within a riveting plot and keeps progression of utmost importance -- to learn developments in the story -- and I'm disregarding attempts to create games based on past novels. We need first hand involvement with the authors to really have their literary vision shine through and appeal to would-be-book lovers and game aficionados. And even then, there's a risk. How many gamers really want to have a story told? While gaming is in its juvenile form, we may have a while to go before we really know.

Sorry for rambling.

Edit 2: Hmm...I've re-read my earlier doodles. To make a concrete statement: Technology can be used to enhance storytelling. Heck, if a game had the money Peter Jackson dismisses on a daily basis, we could see games with riveting cinematics that were on a King Kong scale. We could have animation frighteningly life-like. And just as you're sucked into the realistic world, you find the plot, script and characters all the more impactful. It's when you witness shoddy animation routines and maddening gameplay nuances that the veil of realism is unceremoniously lifted and you're harshly reminded that it's just a game.

fov 12-14-2005 05:21 PM

Quote:

Any excellent writer should be able to create something worthy of game material for just about any company.
You're assuming they'll be hired on the spot just for being capable.

Adventure games (when they get made at all) have sh*t budgets to begin with, and writers are generally considered to be expendable. Sad but true. Hey, anyone who speaks English and knows how to type can write, right? :shifty:

RLacey 12-14-2005 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fov
Adventure games (when they get made at all) have sh*t budgets to begin with, and writers are generally considered to be expendable. Sad but true. Hey, anyone who speaks English and knows how to type can write, right? :shifty:

You don't even need to be able to speak English properly. And I'm not talking about studios outside of the English-speaking countries with that statement... ;)

AudioSoldier 12-14-2005 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fov
You're assuming they'll be hired on the spot just for being capable.

Adventure games (when they get made at all) have sh*t budgets to begin with, and writers are generally considered to be expendable. Sad but true. Hey, anyone who speaks English and knows how to type can write, right? :shifty:

In an ideal world, yes.

AudioSoldier 12-14-2005 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLacey
You don't even need to be able to speak English properly. And I'm not talking about studios outside of the English-speaking countries with that statement... ;)

Well yes, if you're looking to invent certain words, that's true. It needs to be grounded in the realms of plausibility though.

fov 12-14-2005 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioSoldier
In an ideal world, yes.

We don't live in an ideal world. Which is why very talented people end up making "fan games." ;)

cesarbittar 12-14-2005 08:46 PM

heh,

that's kind of funny, considering we have people from Ubisoft, LucasArts and Activision (as well as professional non-gaming media companies), working on our game. I also just got an application from someone that works in Konami.

The point is, this is not about the people in here not being able to find jobs (I can say that some people have used their portfolio for this project to get jobs at some of those companies up above), but you seem to be missing the point entirely of what drives us to build these games.

Yes, we may not look like Final Fantasy, but then again, we are proud of being all over the net without having the same resources Square-Enix has.

cesarbittar 12-14-2005 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioSoldier
In an ideal world, yes.

yes, as much as anyone who can grab a pencil and a sheet of paper can draw.

NemelChelovek 12-14-2005 10:58 PM

Quote:

Besides, you make it sound as if development studios are desperately hunting for workforce, promising them gold and diamonds for making games, but in fact, the workers are pretty much cattle. Baaa!
Shouldn't that be "Mooo?"

Wormsie 12-15-2005 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NemelChelovek
Shouldn't that be "Mooo?"

Good point.

Wormsie 12-15-2005 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioSoldier
Any excellent writer should be able to create something worthy of game material for just about any company.

What if they don't want to. What if they just want to make games as a hobby? Look at interactive fiction!

(Also, what everybody else said.)

But in any case, I think there are some good amateur adventure games out there, and that their sole existence invalidates your point. You seem to disagree, and think that it is impossible for good amateur adventure games to exist. Let's just agree to disagree?

natalia 12-15-2005 04:55 AM

There's also the point that most big time producers and publishers want a known quantity. They want to minimize risk, so they continue with the sequels or with the writers who they know aren't writing their best anymore, but who will sell based on name recognition alone. New writers, or developers and artists that want to do something different have to do things on their own.

Look at the top of the fiction best seller list -- you're going to see the same names over and over again from year to year. That means that the public buys from people they know and the publishers continue to publish the same known quantity. That certainly doesn't mean that those 10 people are the only people in the world who know how to write. There are plenty of talented writers toiling away on their own taking risks that the established publishers aren't willing to take.

AFGNCAAP 12-15-2005 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioSoldier
Moreover, anyone good enough to make a half-decent game is likely to be already employed, considering the videogame world is as increasingly popular as it is.

Quote Of The Year. :shifty:

First off, you said that amateur games are shit, but in all your later reasoning try to prove a more general statement: that low-budget games are shit. That is even more unbelieveable. Game's quality is in no way a simple function of the amount of money spent (though solid financial backup is always welcomed). If you disagree, I guess our views of what constitutes for a good game differ too much for me to engage into this discussion.

AudioSoldier 12-15-2005 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP
Quote Of The Year. :shifty:

First off, you said that amateur games are shit, but in all your later reasoning try to prove a more general statement: that low-budget games are shit. That is even more unbelieveable. Game's quality is in no way a simple function of the amount of money spent (though solid financial backup is always welcomed). If you disagree, I guess our views of what constitutes for a good game differ too much for me to engage into this discussion.

Name me a fanmade game that's good enough to be sold in the shops? Something professional and downright well-made enough to have a price tag attatched?

Fangames may be relatively engaging, but they're not titles you'd spend $50 on. Why? The length of the game, for one, or the substandard visuals and poorly constructed plot with gaping holes in the story due to a lack of motivation halfway through on the part of the team, who, while wallowing away in a basement asked themselves: "Why the fu** are we bothering?"

AudioSoldier 12-15-2005 06:32 AM

If KQ does happen to be any good - so good that I'd pay money for it, I'll do something memorable.

AudioSoldier 12-15-2005 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fov
We don't live in an ideal world. Which is why very talented people end up making "fan games." ;)

Unfortunately, many untalented people try their hand at fangames too. ;)

Hence my cynicism.

fov 12-15-2005 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioSoldier
Name me a fanmade game that's good enough to be sold in the shops? Something professional and downright well-made enough to have a price tag attatched?

Here's one.

I wouldn't pay $50 for it, but I wouldn't pay $50 for any game. And many of the games I have paid money for in the past few years were not as good.

How many (and which) amateur games have you actually played? It doesn't sound like you know much about the scene, to be honest.


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