[Gonchi]

Wasn't it ICOM that came out with mouse support first? I thought voice acting was implemented in King's Quest V first, not VI...

Isn't there a website that has all these little trivia tidbits? Someone should start one...

[ATMachine]

Originally Posted by The Seed

How does lacking ways to die = dumning down? Most of the deaths in Sierra games were stupid and pointless anyway:

"Oops you wakled to close to edge of the cliff and fell off, somehow..."

"...F*** off, I was nowhere near the edge!"

Personally I agree with you; with that line I was merely trying to make a point to some of the more rabid Sierra fans on AG that, like it or not, LucasArts' design philosophies have had more lasting influence.

Most of the pro-Sierra faction are reasonable people, but a few of the fellows debating on here lately have rather questionable maturity. "God is a Sierra fan"? Jeez, grow up. They're just games.

Anyways, I agree that properly implemented, the possibility of death in adventure games can be a good way to enhance the tension. (See Fate of Atlantis for some excellent examples. I'm still nervous whenever I have to talk my way past Kerner in the Labyrinth.) But poorly implemented death, as often appeared in Sierra games (I'm looking at you, Roberta Williams) was never fun.

[Solid Snake]

First of all I didn't write "God is a Sierra fan" I wrote "It wasn't an accident it was God who is a Sierra fan" It fitted well with the message before it. It was just a joke but unfortunately some people are just too dumb to understand it and actually think that I was serious or something. From now on when I wrote such a message I will put a smiley next to it, considering people who are having hard time to understand what is a joke.

[Ariel Type]

Bobske
Not that I dislike Sierra, but

- KQ V - 256 color VGA support (1990). A year later LA came with their first
adventure game (MI2) in 256 colors.
Mean Streets had it all (1989).

- KQ VI - full cdrom support + professional actors to do voice overs +
Microsoft Windows support (1993).
Curse of Enchantia (1992), 7th Guest (1993) + FMV.

- KQ VII - High resolution SVGA support for adventure games + cdrom
only (1994).
The same with Under a Killing Moon, though it was also fully 3D, with exellent FMV (unlike Phantasmagoria).

[ATMachine]

Originally Posted by Ariel Type

- KQ V - 256 color VGA support (1990). A year later LA came with their first adventure game (MI2) in 256 colors.

Hmm, are you sure? I had thought the EGA and VGA disk releases of MI1 were nearly simultaneous, but I could be wrong. I was a little too young then to have a good memory of the matter.

[Dasilva]

Originally Posted by ATMachine

Hmm, are you sure? I had thought the EGA and VGA disk releases of MI1 were nearly simultaneous, but I could be wrong. I was a little too young then to have a good memory of the matter.

KQV was still fist, there was a MI1 remake later on.

[Scoville]

Originally Posted by Dasilva

KQV was still fist, there was a MI1 remake later on.

Plus the 256 color version of Monkey1 doesn't really take advantage of the palette. It's better than 16-color, but not as good as King's Quest V's backgrounds.

[ATMachine]

Originally Posted by Scoville

Plus the 256 color version of Monkey1 doesn't really take advantage of the palette. It's better than 16-color, but not as good as King's Quest V's backgrounds.

I quite agree on that; in the graphics department, in fact, I prefer the Amiga version of MI1 to the 256-color ones.

Strange, maybe, but true. I also think there's a certain loveliness in the more cartoony close-ups of the EGA version...

KQV was lovely graphically, even if it was lacking in some other areas (for example, the puzzle design. Far too many dead ends for my liking, personally.)

[JemyM]

Originally Posted by Ninth

I completely agree about the other three (even though I love The Last Crusade), but why The Dig? I would recommend it without hesitation, myself.

I do not think The Dig kept up the same quality all the way through.

[Bobske]

Originally Posted by Ariel Type

Bobske
Not that I dislike Sierra, but

- KQ V - 256 color VGA support (1990). A year later LA came with their first
adventure game (MI2) in 256 colors.
Mean Streets had it all (1989).

- KQ VI - full cdrom support + professional actors to do voice overs +
Microsoft Windows support (1993).
Curse of Enchantia (1992), 7th Guest (1993) + FMV.

- KQ VII - High resolution SVGA support for adventure games + cdrom
only (1994).
The same with Under a Killing Moon, though it was also fully 3D, with exellent FMV (unlike Phantasmagoria).

I know there were games that supported all this stuff. The comparison was made between Sierra and LA. One of the most impressive game I've played in the good 'ol days was Crime Wave also by Access. That game had it all even before Meanstreets. The game supported 256 Color VGA & MCGA(!) graphics, digitised speech and music through the pc speaker and the game had short FMV movies. So I didn't mean to say that Sierra was the first, they used those techniques before LA

[CrimsonBlue]

But these facts proves that Sierra wasn't a pioneer in these things, namely not being the source of influence for most of them. You left information out to make Sierra look better, but in reality made them no different.

Oh, and you forgot to mention that Sierra changed from text parser to mousedriven interface in adventuregames after LucasArts made that method popular, way back in 1987. And it took some years before sierra switched over.

[Josho]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

But these facts proves that Sierra wasn't a pioneer in these things, namely not being the source of influence for most of them. You left information out to make Sierra look better, but in reality made them no different.

Oh, and you forgot to mention that Sierra changed from text parser to mousedriven interface in adventuregames after LucasArts made that method popular, way back in 1987. And it took some years before sierra switched over.

Mean Streets used a technique for digitized speech that was clumsy, horrible-sounding (it came out of the PC speaker), and took up huge amounts of disk space for a floppy-based game. It was quickly abandoned.

Sierra changed to a mouse-based interface that was unlike LA's. Sierra's mouse-based interface was truly icon-driven. LA's simply allowed you to use a mouse to select words onscreen, which was probably great for them because it allowed them to fill the whole bottom third of the screen with the interface...what a plus, eh? A lot less artwork needed...

Actually, though, neither LA nor Sierra was first to use ANY point-and-click interface. Chris Roberts's "Times of Lore," published by Origin, had a point-and-click interface first. In fact, I've always thought that Sierra's point-and-click interface looked a LOT like it.

--Josh

[CrimsonBlue]

Yes, Times of Lore, I remember that. I loved it on the C64. But wasn't it joystick/keyboard only? Was the PC-version mouse-driven?

Anyway, I personally preferred the LucasArts point'n'click, and I was very dissapointed to find what SCUMM became in Full Throttle. But it wasn't icon-driven we were talking about, it was using pointing and clicking to commanding your character entirely, without any need for the keyboard (apart from saving). And wether the icon is an eye, or the word "look" isn't really much difference.

What I didn't like about Sierra's new point'n'click interface though, was the limitations it provided. If you translated the same interface to the LucasArts one, you would have a very few verbs to choose from. Look, Walk to, Talk, Use, Pick Up - and in Larry's case, Unzip :p.

LucasArts larger amount of verbs provided a more flexible system, dividing Push and Pull for example. Sierra would just have the "operate" or "use" icon, and could only result in one outcome. If you pulled something that should be pushed in LucasArts games, the game would tell you "it doesn't go any further in that direction" or something like that. It's not a very big deal, but it's one of the smaller details that made me enjoy the system more.

But I'm a huge fan of the text parser that Sierra used earlier. It made for the most flexible system in the world, giving you the whole keyboard to play with. I love typing on the computer too, and it helped me practice doing so. I can honestly say that these games really taught me how to type faster.

[Bobske]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

Anyway, I personally preferred the LucasArts point'n'click, and I was very dissapointed to find what SCUMM became in Full Throttle. But it wasn't icon-driven we were talking about, it was using pointing and clicking to commanding your character entirely, without any need for the keyboard (apart from saving). And wether the icon is an eye, or the word "look" isn't really much difference.

What I didn't like about Sierra's new point'n'click interface though, was the limitations it provided. If you translated the same interface to the LucasArts one, you would have a very few verbs to choose from. Look, Walk to, Talk, Use, Pick Up - and in Larry's case, Unzip :p.

LucasArts larger amount of verbs provided a more flexible system, dividing Push and Pull for example. Sierra would just have the "operate" or "use" icon, and could only result in one outcome. If you pulled something that should be pushed in LucasArts games, the game would tell you "it doesn't go any further in that direction" or something like that. It's not a very big deal, but it's one of the smaller details that made me enjoy the system more.

But I'm a huge fan of the text parser that Sierra used earlier. It made for the most flexible system in the world, giving you the whole keyboard to play with. I love typing on the computer too, and it helped me practice doing so. I can honestly say that these games really taught me how to type faster.

I also thought the point and click interface of LA was cool, but I did think that some verbs were a bit "too much". The whole push/pull was a bit much. I'd rather have a "move" button. Ok ok, too easy

And about Sierra not being a pioneer for not being the first... I think it's a bit to easy to say when another company releases a game (earlier) with more and better features, like Curse of Enchantia or Meanstreets, that Sierra or LA for that matter, aren't real pioneers. How many adventure games were released after COE by the same company. How many of those games were cutting edge? I agree that UAKM was cutting edge (great use of 3D and FMV) but The Pandora Directive was essentially the same game and Overseer tried to be cutting edge but unfortunately the use of DVD didn't really take off. Too many bugs and bad support...

In addition, do you guys remember Rise of the Robots? That game was hailed as the next generation beat 'um ups. Amazing graphics, beautiful rendered backgrounds etc. etc. The game however sucked big time and nobody remembers it. So, to me, being a pioneer is more than releasing a game with nifty features or being the first to adapt new technology. I didn't leave out other games to make Sierra look better. You have to agree that adventure game-wise there were only 2 pioneers. If you look at the KQ series, you can see technical progress with almost every new KQ game. You could say the same for every LA adventure game, although MI, MI2, DOTT, Indy don't differ that much when comparing technology (Still SCUMM same interface
). In 6 years time 1988 - 1994 LA didn't change their winning SCUMM system. Sierra did change their game interface dramaticly.

I still do believe that Sierra was a pioneer because they succesfully used new technology to improve their games (GK2 & FMV!). They may not have always been the first but they were more succesful than other companies. To me LA was also a pioneer but less so than Sierra.

[CrimsonBlue]

Originally Posted by Bobske

MI, MI2, DOTT, Indy don't differ that much when comparing technology (Still SCUMM same interface
). In 6 years time 1988 - 1994 LA didn't change their winning SCUMM system. Sierra did change their game interface dramaticly.

Uhm, what dramatic changes was that? ManiacMansion was the first game, and the same interface was in Zak McKracken. Then they very much improved it with Monkey Island ("Walk to" command was removed, instead you just clicked wherever you wanted your character to go, less verbs and a "Talk to" command added.). Then Monkey Island 2 and Indy 4 improved it further by losing Turn on and Turn off for example. Sam and Max turned the entire thing completely into icon-driven, and Full Throttle and CMI further "improved" upon that. I had preferred it had stopped at MI2 and Indy 4, but that's another discussion. But at least it proves that SCUMM was constantly improved too, and no less than Sierras interfaces.

Now, I'm not the biggest expert on Sierras interface, but I seem to remember the changes merely being from text on bottom of the screen, to the center of the screen then finally to icon-driven. I'm sure you know something more than this, but from what I already know (which may not be enough), it isn't that much more developed than SCUMM. You are free to tell me how the Sierra interface changed so much where SCUMM didn't.

[Dasilva]

Boy, reading this thread never gets old.

[Hammerite]

Good Underground AGs = LucasArts > Sierra > Bad Underground AGs

i still need to play gabriel knight remember

[Ariel Type]

Bobske

I think it's a bit to easy to say when another company releases a game (earlier) with more and better features, like Curse of Enchantia or Meanstreets, that Sierra or LA for that matter, aren't real pioneers. How many adventure games were released after COE by the same company. How many of those games were cutting edge? I agree that UAKM was cutting edge (great use of 3D and FMV) but The Pandora Directive was essentially the same game and Overseer tried to be cutting edge but unfortunately the use of DVD didn't really take off. Too many bugs and bad support...

After Curse of Enchantia Core Design made Tomb Raider, so there was a revolution here (though I personally hate TR)
And Access actually improved UAKM. While technology remained the same (it didn't actually need any improvement, as it was ahead of its time), PD had a much deeper plot, better puzzles and a very high replayability - 6 or 7 endings! I guess that's enough for a great sequel. Overseer had even better plot and puzzles, though it was planned to be much better then it turned out to be.
As for Sierra - I agree that the company tried to make a use of new technologies. But Lucas Arts.. Well, there are multiple characters (MM and Zak), replayability (FoA), non-linearity (DoTT), companion (Sam&Max), verb coin (Full Throttle!, CofMI), unique gameplay (Loom).. LA games weren't "all the same", after all.

[CrimsonBlue]

Originally Posted by Ariel Type

Bobske

After Curse of Enchantia Core Design made Tomb Raider

After CoE, they made Universe, which had basically the same interface as CoE.

[Ariel Type]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

After CoE, they made Universe, which had basically the same interface as CoE.

Those two were the only adventures from Core, so no wonder