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No new postsWhat are the obstacles that small indie developers suffer at?
I believe a game without a publisher, could be one of the top obstacles any small dev could face; providing the game to different platforms, localization, selling the game on various outlets, and marketing ..etc, but that is not what I’m about, I am wondering about the nuances of production, giving the game voiceover, making an original soundtrack, or even testing it or whatever god knows what.
What are the troubles any small dev really faces if they can make the primary product and can produce ‘the game’; the writing, the gameplay, the puzzles, and of course applying the needed engine..?
A1
I believe a game without a publisher, could be one of the top obstacles any small dev could face; providing the game to different platforms, localization, selling the game on various outlets, and marketing ..etc, but that is not what I’m about, I am wondering about the nuances of production, giving the game voiceover, making an original soundtrack, or even testing it or whatever god knows what.
What are the troubles any small dev really faces if they can make the primary product and can produce ‘the game’; the writing, the gameplay, the puzzles, and of course applying the needed engine..?
Well in the adventure game genre i would def say originality. I feel like so many Indy devs make knock offs. For instance there’s a game called Bryan Scott and they have the voice actor that plays George Stobbart in the broken sword game, in this new game and from the demo, it seems like bryan scott is nothing but a low rent cheap knockoff of broken sword in every possible way.
Also devs will take homages too far, like in the game gibbious; they give us a rap battle scene, that’s so plainly a rip off of monkey island sword insult fighting that it just made me roll my eyes three times. Little Easter eggs are cool but please stop with all the on the nose homages to some of the most popular adventure games of all time, it’s not Charming at all anymore.
And then on the opposite end of the spectrum you got games like saint kotar who marketed their game in the vein of broken sword and Gabriel Knight and trust me that game has so little to do with those other two titles that it is ridiculous. They used those titles in the marketing because they are buzzwords that any adventure game players will know.
On a gameplay level I definitely say puzzles, they either go to one extremely or the other, they either basically have no Puzzles and it’s a walking simulator or they try to reinvent the wheel instead of just making competent, interesting puzzles, which is a challenge but needs to be accomplished in order to make a great adventure game, at least to me. An example of this would be crowns and pawns a kingdom of deceit. They tried to have a lot of action timing puzzles that just simply did not work on a lot of machines and pissed a lot of Gamers off. They also give the player the choice at the beginning of the game to choose from three occupation paths that would help you solve puzzles. But that ultimately did not lead to much gameplay differences. I will give them an E for effort for at least trying to think outside of the box, unlike so many developers who make a locked door puzzle by putting the key to the locked door on a table in another room and call that a puzzle. just my two cents
Recent years showed that managing the production without a publisher is often the biggest challenge for a small team. Turned out even competent developers like Tim Schafer or the Andromeda Guys, even with top-level programmers/artists/actors and money collected through Kickstarter couldn’t plan anything and failed to deliver the games they promised in time which turned many people off.
In this regards Lucas Pope’s story is be the most inspiring: he came up with this original idea for Papers, Please he believed in so much that he left Naughty Dog, invested his own finances into the project and worked alone from home, spending every minute to finish the game by the established date, to the point he refused to visit the bathroom. It’s pretty basic in presentation: a one-room gameplay, simply drawn and programmed with open-source tools, with randomised characters, no voiceovers, hardly any music… Pope just delivered exactly what he promised, gaining a huge benefit of the doubt. Which eventually payed off as the game turned into a bestseller and made him one of the most renewed indie devs.
Maybe that’s how every indie production should be treated: work to death, make best use of the resources you have, build up a reputation and then enjoy your life. The aforementioned developers of Saint Kotar did exactly the opposite and ruined their reputation with failed promises and forum wars even before the game was released to poor reviews. And I’m not even talking about Agustin Cordes and his ill-fated Asylum… I think with modern tools, engines and tons of professional programmers/artists/animators/musicians available for outsourcing what one truly needs is talent to come up with ideas and effective game design plus good time/resource management, not much else.
PC means personal computer
Recent years showed that managing the production without a publisher is often the biggest challenge for a small team. Turned out even competent developers like Tim Schafer or the Andromeda Guys, even with top-level programmers/artists/actors and money collected through Kickstarter couldn’t plan anything and failed to deliver the games they promised in time which turned many people off.
In this regards Lucas Pope’s story is be the most inspiring: he came up with this original idea for Papers, Please he believed in so much that he left Naughty Dog, invested his own finances into the project and worked alone from home, spending every minute to finish the game by the established date, to the point he refused to visit the bathroom. It’s pretty basic in presentation: a one-room gameplay, simply drawn and programmed with open-source tools, with randomised characters, no voiceovers, hardly any music… Pope just delivered exactly what he promised, gaining a huge benefit of the doubt. Which eventually payed off as the game turned into a bestseller and made him one of the most renewed indie devs.
Maybe that’s how every indie production should be treated: work to death, make best use of the resources you have, build up a reputation and then enjoy your life. The aforementioned developers of Saint Kotar did exactly the opposite and ruined their reputation with failed promises and forum wars even before the game was released to poor reviews. And I’m not even talking about Agustin Cordes and his ill-fated Asylum… I think with modern tools, engines and tons of professional programmers/artists/animators/musicians available for outsourcing what one truly needs is talent to come up with ideas and effective game design plus good time/resource management, not much else.
Doom, even though we will never agree about Woodruff lol. I do love your posts and reading them and basically agree with everything you said.
I think Kickstarter revealed the ugly truth about developers they’re just as culpable as publishers. For years Publishers have got the brunt of criticism for good reason. EA is awful on so many levels, but creators are pretty awful too. Promising stuff that never comes to fruition. even on the verge of scamming people, for example Peter molyneux. There’s a great documentary about him on YouTube and going over the history of him and games and all the lies he’s told over the years. Heck he got his first contract to make a game based on a lie lol.
Also as I’ve said in other posts not all bad developers are scam artists, for example Chris Roberts who’s making star citizen. I think he is a guy with Big Dreams and has no idea how to actually handle money and a realistic pipeline of getting things done. He has shiny object toys syndrome where a new piece of technology comes out and he immediately has to use it and incorporate it, which results in a game that will never come out. To keep on Star Citizen for a minute not to rag on it more, but I did see one trailer of the single player campaign and everybody was amazed about how pretty the graphics looked, and the fact that you can fly down to the planet… but I’m like yeah thats cool, but the enemy AI is brain dead and they were just standing out in the open getting shot to death. Who cares about graphics when gameplay is not even on a PS1 level lol.
Turned out even competent developers like Tim Schafer or the Andromeda Guys, even with top-level programmers/artists/actors and money collected through Kickstarter couldn’t plan anything and failed to deliver the games they promised in time which turned many people off.
This is undoubtedly the biggest problem, at least with crowdfunding involved.
I haven’t done the math lately, but I believe altogether my backed games are late maybe 200 years by now.
My backing history is especially bad with racing games, as some didn’t even get funded (fortunately…) and those that did, after some promising videos and such simply went dead, no game, no communication.
Adventure game developers at least seem to be making an effort to deliver something. Even if Tim Schafer first delivered only half a game, and Andromeda Guys a buggy beta version 10 years late, there’s some kind of game in any case.
Of course there are some adventure game projects that haven’t produced much of anything, but usually the developers at least have (come up with) a good excuse on why nothing is happening. I think one (no one famous) even admitted that he lost all the money, because he couldn’t manage the project.
Turned out even competent developers like Tim Schafer or the Andromeda Guys, even with top-level programmers/artists/actors and money collected through Kickstarter couldn’t plan anything and failed to deliver the games they promised in time which turned many people off.
This is undoubtedly the biggest problem, at least with crowdfunding involved.
I haven’t done the math lately, but I believe altogether my backed games are late maybe 200 years by now.
My backing history is especially bad with racing games, as some didn’t even get funded (fortunately…) and those that did, after some promising videos and such simply went dead, no game, no communication.Adventure game developers at least seem to be making an effort to deliver something. Even if Tim Schafer first delivered only half a game, and Andromeda Guys a buggy beta version 10 years late, there’s some kind of game in any case.
Of course there are some adventure game projects that haven’t produced much of anything, but usually the developers at least have (come up with) a good excuse on why nothing is happening. I think one (no one famous) even admitted that he lost all the money, because he couldn’t manage the project.
honest question has any developer that has done a Kickstarter or any other crowdfunding ever admitted that they were just awful with money? All the ones I’ve seen it is because either other people didn’t come through on time or some other circumstances outside of their control. Especially on physical rewards, that is the biggest scam lol, you get promised cool stuff, like a big box and then it never comes, or if you do get it, the reward is not remotely what they promised.
It also wouldnt be so bad if they learned from their mistakes, but Tim Schaffer repeated the same mistake twice, double fine almost went out of business again with Psychonauts 2 and he had to resell himself back to Microsoft to stay in business.
Even revolutionary software had a huge snag with bs5. that’s why it had to come out in two chapters, but ever since then they haven’t had to rely on crowdfunding which is admirable and pretty impressive given the fact that they’re actually making two games right now.
That is a very good question, just as asking what was the benefit of the use of Elijah Wood’s voice at Broken Age, and how much benefit the game could have gained otherwise.
I guess* that approach considering the medium of adventure gaming was absolutely horrendous, Double Fine wasn’t making a movie or even a mainstream game to benefit from a star’s name contribution over the game, it is not as his image was on the game’s box or highlighted with bold letters over the title.
A1
Doom, even though we will never agree about Woodruff lol. I do love your posts and reading them and basically agree with everything you said.
Thanks, Jdawg 
I do think that some cases were overdramatised, like when Schafer asked for additional funding for the second chapter of Broken Age and people bombed him with questions like “Where has all my money gone?”. The team spent a lot of time and effort communicating with fans, making documentaries and all which wasn’t very common back then, and I know many considered those things alone worth their money.
It did feel a bit uncomfortable though, because I imagined we saw the start of a new era when the devs were finally free to make whichever games they wanted to, yet Broken Age turned to be a disaster for Double Fine at the end and not what I expected to see from Tim — and not what Tim himself wanted to make from what it felt, even those two short chapters played differently. And then he just went another direction. Many other old- and newschool developers who followed also fought to deliver their “dream games”...
And as I read those books and articles dedicated to Sierra Online, for example, I realise how important was the way those companies were managed — no talent was wasted, they spent nights trying finish their games before the deadlines, but those games were so full of content and individuality. And you may not like Woodruff (not many like it anyway ), but it was a 100% Coktel Vision game, with a totally unique approach, complex themes, made in just a year after Goblins 3, filled with awesome art and animation to the brim — and the company was owned by Sierra at the time. Money spent right. And Schafer’s Full Throttle made around the same time just screamed “Freedom! The game I enjoyed making!”.
PC means personal computer
Doom, even though we will never agree about Woodruff lol. I do love your posts and reading them and basically agree with everything you said.
Thanks, Jdawg
It did feel a bit uncomfortable though, because I imagined we saw the start of a new era when the devs were finally free to make whichever games they wanted to, yet Broken Age turned to be a disaster for Double Fine at the end and not what I expected to see from Tim — and not what Tim himself wanted to make from what it felt, even those two short chapters played differently. And then he just went another direction. Many other old- and newschool developers who followed also fought to deliver their “dream games”...
And as I read those books and articles dedicated to Sierra Online, for example, I realise how important was the way those companies were managed — no talent was wasted, they spent nights trying finish their games before the deadlines, but those games were so full of content and individuality. And you may not like Woodruff (not many like it anyway
I can see your point, but tim blew past his original ask for the campaign on broken age and he had no idea how to manage time, people or money. Plus Kickstarter was so new at the time I think fans had a right to freak out because they saw how much he asked for and how much he actually got from the campaign. The budget issues Happened again with psychonauts 2. At least with psychonauts 2 the game also came out great and was a very good sequel.
I agree with you on full throttle, that game is pretty perfect to me on every level.
New member here.
Discoverability is a big problem for many indie devs, isn’t it? I hear git gud at marketing offered as a general solution, but I wonder if the problem isn’t a little more systemic than that? IE. Too many games and too few customers.
Dunno.
Anyone got any thoughts?
EDIT: Oh, dear, I do apologize, I saw the title, jumped in without reading the OP, and went off in the wrong direction. On topic, I would say surely it’s the puzzles? The difficulty, yes. But also making sure they don’t turn into a stifling cage for the player.
Let me dream if I want to.
New member here.
Discoverability is a big problem for many indie devs, isn’t it? I hear git gud at marketing offered as a general solution, but I wonder if the problem isn’t a little more systemic than that? IE. Too many games and too few customers.
Dunno.
Anyone got any thoughts?
EDIT: Oh, dear, I do apologize, I saw the title, jumped in without reading the OP, and went off in the wrong direction. On topic, I would say surely it’s the puzzles? The difficulty, yes. But also making sure they don’t turn into a stifling cage for the player.
I mentioned puzzle cages above. For general interest, here’s Ron Gilbert on the matter. Obviously, he puts it a lot better than I ever could.
“A lot of story games employ a technique that can best be described as caging the player. This occurs when the player is required to solve a small set of puzzles in order to advance to the next section of the game, at which point she is presented with another small set of puzzles. Once these puzzles are solved, in a seemingly endless series of cages, the player enters the next section. This can be particularly frustrating if the player is unable to solve a particular puzzle. The areas to explore tend to be small, so the only activity is walking around trying to find the one solution out.
Try to imagine this type of puzzle as a cage the player is caught in, and the only way out is to find the key. Once the key is found, the player finds herself in another cage. A better way to approach designing this is to think of the player as outside the cages, and the puzzles as locked up within. In this model, the player has a lot more options about what to do next. She can select from a wide variety of cages to open. If the solution to one puzzle stumps her, she can go on to another, thus increasing the amount of useful activity going on.”
Source: https://grumpygamer.com/why_adventure_games_suck
Let me dream if I want to.
I guess what is sadder than the state of Adventure Games, are adventure gamers themselves.. now let us move on.
I had once the privilege to follow closely an adventure game development that was called Anastronaut II: The Dark Side, where Scott Murphy lent his voice for a couple of seconds to the developer as a cameo appearance, but let me tell how really developers suffer with voice-overs; a developer can have all the tools needed to create one adventure from the writing, designing, creating the puzzles, to make the artwork..etc but when it comes to voice acting, it is a totally different ‘game’ that leads developer to choose from three different routes, but first let me tell that recording I.E 6,000-10,000 lines for 40 characters through the game is a job that can easily take a year, and costs a lot;
1st route Is to hire a professional studio, give them the task, and pay! Viola.. but that is not something an indie developer is capable of.
2nd route Is to find a sound engineer who manipulates the voices and relies on 3 to 4 actors to do the job, with emphasis on the main protagonist (lines).
3rd route Is to rely on amateur voice actors, but expect players to turn off the game’s speech volume and prepare to get slaughtered with players’ reviews.
That is why we find great-looking games that are released without voice-overs, It is a hell job for any small developer, especially for adventure games, and we can’t really complain much about it.
A1
Discoverability is a big problem for many indie devs, isn’t it?
Indeed it is.
There are more adventure games being made than ever before, but even the most dedicated adventurers don’t know about all these hundreds of games.
They just come quietly and then it’s a real random chance that one can ever find them.
I had once the privilege to follow closely an adventure game that was called Anastronaut II: The Dark Side
How fitting that you mention that.
Even though it’s not a new game, I’m sure many people are going to miss that, as it’s only available on Fireflower Games and unless you are a dedicated customer of that store, or know the developer from other games, the chance to randomly encounter that game is very low. At least it has had some visibility on adventure game sites, which is more than many of those indie adventures are ever going to get.
That is why we find great-looking games that are released without voice-overs, It is a hell job for any small developer, especially for adventure games, and we can’t really complain much about it.
Right, but many games are actually better without voice acting.
Just because you can have spoken dialogue in the game, doesn’t mean that you have to.
It even goes back to the golden era of gaming really. Were all those CD-ROM versions actually better than the disk versions that had no voice acting?
I think Adventure Gamers themselves are fine, but I do think a lot of Indie developers have huge Egos and think everything they create is a masterpiece when it’s subpar 8 out of 10 times or worse. At the end of the day if you’re selling a game it is a service and the customer has the right to be like this ain’t very good. Just like if I go to a restaurant and the steak is overdone when I asked for medium, I have the right to say something. Developers used to be able to take at least some criticism. No one is saying game design is easy, there’s a host of problems, but at the end of the day if you want money for that product then the consumer have a right to complain or heap praise.
The best is when devs come on here and ask for opinion on a demo or a trailer and we give honest feedback and they’re like you’re wrong, my best friend, brother, and wife thinks this game is the greatest ever. Okay then why ask for anybody’s opinion. most devs don’t want honest feedback they want confirmation bias.
How you got so defensive so quick shows a lot. Bottom line is game design is hard. very hard!!!! develop thick skin and wear a helmet, or don’t release commercially made games and instead give them away for free
the best interaction I’ve had with a dev lately is the guy making foolish mortals, he received a lot of Praise but also a lot of criticism for the main character’s voice acting and terrible walking animations. He took it on the chin and realized it was an issue and is working on fixing it. Will the final game be any better? that’s anybody’s guess, but he took the criticism on the chin and didn’t run away, or deflect the criticism. More should be like them.
How fitting that you mention that.
Even though it’s not a new game, I’m sure many people are going to miss that, as it’s only available on Fireflower Games and unless you are a dedicated customer of that store, or know the developer from other games, the chance to randomly encounter that game is very low. At least it has had some visibility on adventure game sites, which is more than many of those indie adventures are ever going to get.
True, I have been following Anas Abdin through his FB page, I wouldn’t have known about his games otherwise
It even goes back to the golden era of gaming really. Were all those CD-ROM versions actually better than the disk versions that had no voice acting?
Funny you say that as it took me 20 years to realize that GK: Sins of the Fathers had a talkie version, as I had played once back then on them floppies, but it has never changed a damn thing playing it again (the talkie version).
A1
6,000-10,000 lines for 40 characters through the game is a job that can easily take a year, and costs a lot ...
Which reminds me of another pitfall that can sink indie developers: overambitious thinking and uncontrolled scope creep on the back of a successful crowdfunding campaign….
Right, but many games are actually better without voice acting.
Just because you can have spoken dialogue in the game, doesn’t mean that you have to.
Totally. For games in the ‘classic’ style, I personally prefer text over voice acting, even decent voice acting.
The best is when devs come on here and ask for opinion on a demo or a trailer and we give honest feedback and they’re like you’re wrong, my best friend, brother, and wife thinks this game is the greatest ever. Okay then why ask for anybody’s opinion. most devs don’t want honest feedback they want confirmation bias.
This is a common problem in a number of creative but still commercial pursuits. I’ve seen indie cartoonists go into absolute meltdown over mildly critical reviews.
It’s not always easy, sure, but come on guys, lets at least pretend to be adults.
I was actually talking to my father about this recently. He said going to art school in the early seventies set him up for life when it came to handling criticism. The lecturers’ feedback sessions back then were apparently no holds barred and brutal.
Bottom line is game design is hard. very hard!!!!
Yah. It’s probably some kind of mid-life crisis, but I’ve been kicking around a few game ideas for the last year or so. As soon as I even slightly move past the day-dreaming stage and start sketching things out in a vaguely systematic way, the scale of the undertaking sinks in. And that’s getting a functional game, never mind an engaging and rewarding one!
Let me dream if I want to.
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