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You are here: HomeForum Home → Other → Chit Chat → Thread


   

Should support of an artist be influenced by their beliefs/attitudes?

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Lets continue our discussion here

Martin Gantefoehr - 29 May 2013 12:34 PM

I think it’s perfectly reasonable for people to not support people they consider to be assholes. It is, of course, also perfectly reasonable for people to support the creators of promising projects.

To me, the underlying question is whether an artist’s work should be, needs to be, or can be separated from his/her own views and beliefs. It’s a really interesting question, and it goes far beyond this Amikrog Kickstarter discussion. Perhaps a new thread should be created for it.

so you are saying if someone catch a slip from you Mr. Martin and took it against you , and let me imagine here it was your kickstarter and it had just been launched (prefect timing..huh!) and brought out something that shows (for INSTANCE) that Martin Gantefoehr doesn’t think that the Holocaust had happened or at least not how the Jews talks about it can anyone separates your work from what you said (FOR INSTANCE) Smile

i dont think its possible but the only thing that might make anyone goes to pledge for a dev he/she doesn’t like is the fact that those kickstarters are for us more than its for the dev who is making them.

     
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Its for us depending upon how much we love Art and want to support it under the
belief that ART is free from politics and religion. The comments have no bearing on
actual product or content, its not the game with negative propoganda or some
offensive material that could hurt people.

People expecting that he should not alienate by supressing his voice are only delusionsal, since Doug himeslf said that political correctness and filtering in comments AINT gonna change the actual origins and feeling of the person, that other homophobics might hide with wordplay.

Finally the concentration should be on product and its coming from Country with Freedom
of speech, there is lots of hate from everyone around the world for everyone else,
anti religion to racist comments still prevail under the excuse of freedom of speech, that
makes US click, and as long as the content itself isn’t offensive which it isn’t, one should overlook it.


I did not bring this up in WolfAmongUS thread but the whole comic has an Analogy
(Query also thrown to TTG which they avoided, here the excerpt from comic)


Bisgby is saying in the comic.


“Ever hear of a country called Israel? …Israel is a tiny country surrounded by much larger countries dedicated to its eventual total destruction. …they stay alive by being a bunch of tough little bastards who make the other guys pay dearly every time they do anything against Israel. Some in the wider world constantly wail and moan about the endless cycle of violence and reprisal. But since the alternative is non-existence, the Israelis seem determined to keep at it. They have a lot of grit and iron. I’m a big fan of them.”

Go and Google about the writer and his feelings, some are mad on him some aint, the difference in this case is that the writer and creators will not only benefit from royalties if you are gonna buy the upcoming game by TTG but also will be supporting the actual Political analogy and theme of Comic, its a statement made by the Comic, the actual content.

In case of Armikrog the content or game ain’t making any statement.


I am going to play and buy both.

 

     
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Advie - 29 May 2013 12:46 PM

Lets continue our discussion here

Martin Gantefoehr - 29 May 2013 12:34 PM

To me, the underlying question is whether an artist’s work should be, needs to be, or can be separated from his/her own views and beliefs. It’s a really interesting question, and it goes far beyond this Amikrog Kickstarter discussion. Perhaps a new thread should be created for it.

so you are saying if someone catch a slip from you Mr. Martin and took it against you , and let me imagine here it was your kickstarter and it had just been launched (prefect timing..huh!) and brought out something that shows (for INSTANCE) that Martin Gantefoehr doesn’t think that the Holocaust had happened or at least not how the Jews talks about it can anyone separates your work from what you said (FOR INSTANCE) Smile


Um. What I’m saying is there in my quote. :-)

(On a side note: Should I (—FOR INSTANCE!—) deny the Holocaust, then please don’t separate it from my work and send me money. Call an ambulance.)

-

Edit: Added the quotes for the purpose of clarity. Didn’t expect others to reply so quickly. I’m sorry.

     
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Everyone has the choice to support or not support a project for whatever reason makes sense to them, whether it is based solely on the merits of the project itself or is influenced by their feelings about the creator. Who are we to tell anyone they are wrong in their personal choice?

     
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Martin Gantefoehr - 29 May 2013 01:53 PM
Advie - 29 May 2013 12:46 PM

Lets continue our discussion here

Martin Gantefoehr - 29 May 2013 12:34 PM

To me, the underlying question is whether an artist’s work should be, needs to be, or can be separated from his/her own views and beliefs. It’s a really interesting question, and it goes far beyond this Amikrog Kickstarter discussion. Perhaps a new thread should be created for it.

so you are saying if someone catch a slip from you Mr. Martin and took it against you , and let me imagine here it was your kickstarter and it had just been launched (prefect timing..huh!) and brought out something that shows (for INSTANCE) that Martin Gantefoehr doesn’t think that the Holocaust had happened or at least not how the Jews talks about it can anyone separates your work from what you said (FOR INSTANCE) Smile


Um. What I’m saying is there in my quote. :-)

(On a side note: Should I (—FOR INSTANCE!—) deny the Holocaust, then please don’t separate it from my work and send me money. Call an ambulance.)

-

Edit: Added the quotes for the purpose of clarity. Didn’t expect others to reply so quickly. I’m sorry.

Ok
i didnt expect this kind of (bun intedned) answer for my beloved Serious storyteller Writer and Fav Designer ..
but its still ok.

but what if this answer affected my love (you know it) and i said to myself (for Instance) the guy i am in love with him and his work that for me seems like a very rare Diamond with lots of useless stone lying around is ‘whatever’ or lets say not the one whom i expected to be behind the 2 gems i adore ...

i tell you what if..
i will call my psychiatrist and make an urgent meeting Grin , because his work which i love are still the same, i can run Overclocked or The Moment of Silence any time and will turn out to be the same ones i always knew and loved.. so i would understand that the problem is within me then call an ambulance   Sarcastic

     
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Changed the thread title, as this really isn’t about TenNapel per se. I should probably move the thread as well, but what the heck. It can stay here for now. Tongue

The answer, as usual for me, is that it varies case to case. I don’t think I’ve ever boycotted a product… well, ever, but particularly based on the views of its creator. Then again, I make a point to learn as little about the personalities behind any product (particularly art) as I can, as I’m often disappointed when I do. I assume that all artists and builders and creators out there are flawed human beings that won’t hold up to excessive scrutiny. The rest of us wouldn’t either; we just aren’t under that same spotlight. That’s something none of us should ever lose sight of.

I also find that most reports are so horribly distorted by the time they’ve been disseminated publicly that they often have little similarity to anything resembling the truth anymore. So I take everything I hear with a grain of salt. And when it comes to the internet, a massive grain.

That said, I would have no problem denying my support to anyone I felt was undeserving of it. Even when the medium isn’t the message, success is what drives opportunity. If Armikrog (strictly for example) succeeds, then TenNapel will be squarely in the public eye for the next year; if it fails, he won’t. No mystery which outcome gives him the better platform to spread his views (if he chooses).

Incidentally, I believe that anyone who denies others the same basic human rights they enjoy is a woefully misguided hypocrite, whatever the reason. So in that sense I completely oppose what TenNapel seems to believe about gay marriage. But I still backed Armikrog, because I’m a clay fan and want to play it. Grin

     

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I’m disinclined to boycott the work of anybody based solely upon their beliefs and the statement thereof, so long as the work itself is not promulgating those beliefs. (And I would never boycott somebody’s work simply because they were a jerk. That would be VERY limiting, I think. Wink ) Now if the person had taken ACTIONS that I considered criminal, or at least wildly unethical, and financially supporting them would likely contribute to their ability to continue to do so (or serve to mitigate the consequences they are supposed to be suffering for doing so), THEN I would consider boycotting.

That doesn’t seem to me to be the case here, or in the case of Orson Scott Card which is the other one I’ve seen bandied about of late due to the upcoming Ender’s Game movie. Someone asked, in the other thread, about whether one would buy Hitler’s art if he was going to profit by it. My answer would be no, but not so much because of any beliefs he had expressed, but rather because of the manner in which he ACTED on those beliefs.

     
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Anyone of a Jewish heritage here listen to Richard Wagner? Or anyone at all come to that.

     

Never cry for something that can’t cry for you.

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There’s an Eric Gill statue in front of the BBC that most people think is pretty nice, but I’m sure only about 2 people in the world would consider him anything other than a disgusting human being.

     
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Jackal - 29 May 2013 03:08 PM

I make a point to learn as little about the personalities behind any product (particularly art) as I can.

Incidentally, I believe that anyone who denies others the same basic human rights they enjoy is a woefully misguided hypocrite, whatever the reason. So in that sense I completely oppose what TenNapel seems to believe about gay marriage. But I still backed Armikrog, because I’m a clay fan and want to play it. Grin

These, both! I never understood why people want to know everything about the persons whose biggest fan they are. What do I care? They do their job well, and for the rest I’m not interested.

     
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Jabod - 29 May 2013 04:26 PM

Anyone of a Jewish heritage here listen to Richard Wagner? Or anyone at all come to that.

The issue at hand here isn’t about whether one can enjoy the work of a bad person (they absolutely can), it’s about giving financial support to them, which I think you would agree would be kind of hard to do in Wagner’s case.

     
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Jabod - 29 May 2013 04:26 PM

Anyone of a Jewish heritage here listen to Richard Wagner? Or anyone at all come to that.

i came to that just right now, and i must say thanks Jabod for introducing/enlighten me with this great composer/talent , i played funeral march twice ‘til now ,
just an amazing the way how he flows his music-patterns with 0% Repetition ...

i am gonna REALLY take my time with him through the upcoming weeks to discover his Music ... Thank you
i really needed something different to listen to and here i go Grin

ahh i do not know that guy or ever heard of him and don’t care or want to , i really have no idea about his political/personal Views and opinions and don’t feel like googling it either… i just listened to his wonderful work and liked it and that is what really matters

     
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Bastich - 29 May 2013 05:00 PM
Jabod - 29 May 2013 04:26 PM

Anyone of a Jewish heritage here listen to Richard Wagner? Or anyone at all come to that.

The issue at hand here isn’t about whether one can enjoy the work of a bad person (they absolutely can), it’s about giving financial support to them, which I think you would agree would be kind of hard to do in Wagner’s case.

In principle, I agree with your statement, but the only thing I would change is “whether one “chooses” to enjoy the work of a bad person.”  I choose not.

That being said…....I cannot enjoy any work by Wagner knowing what a disgusting human being he was.  Luckily there are not too many in Wagner’s league artistically and his admirers and peers had “different” talents.

 

     
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Another recent example is Frank Miller. Miller is a fascist and supports racial profiling and would even go as far as to introduce internment camps for Muslims. His work promotes this world view such as The Dark Knight Rises where the left are continuously represented as being dangerously naive, glib and always getting in the way of Batman and Commissioner Gordon trying to do their job.

And yet, it’s an amazing piece of work and I’d gladly plunk down my $29.95 or whatever to own those comics and am more than happy to see Miller live comfortably off his work. Why? Because when it comes to art the only thing that matters is the experience. Miller is an incredible storyteller who knows how to rile up his reader and keep him or her in suspense.

I can’t even imagine what it would be like if every single content creator was politically correct. It could get grating after a while like watching Rachel Maddow on an endless loop - after a few hours of her you’d become a hardcore conservative.

     
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Ultimately, it’s up to the consumer on a case by case basis.  There is no hard and fast right or wrong answer on this one.


Bt

     
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Let’s step back for a moment. Of course our judgements of Art are subjective, and can be biased based on our feelings regarding the person who created same. Outside of the gaming environment I offer two examples based on personal experience.

One: Jeff Smith, aka the Frugal Gourmet, was a highly successful cookbook author, PBS cooking show host and marketer of cooking products. I have several of his cookbooks and use them regularly. Then he was accused of sexually molesting underage boys in Seattle. I appreciated his “art” but I never purchased another product that bore his name.

Earlier in this thread I found comments re: Richard Wagner. He has been vilified for decades as being the musical composer for Hitler and the Nazi regime. Wagner died on February 13, 1883, almost sixty years before Hitler invaded Poland. I love Wagner’s music, and anytime a new recording comes out that purports to be better than the one I have, I will buy it.

I hope this makes some sense.

     

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