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So it’s all about expectations of replayability. Seven, eight or a dozen different stories for the price of one. That’s what I said in post 921 (my hypothetical example in terms of the TWAU universe), which Mr Tirade ignored. And when a game doesn’t meet these personal preferences the game choices are fake and false and an illusion.
Generally speaking, I want a game to tell one story. There are always exceptions of course, and I enjoy exploring the many choices in IMs very much when they are necessary to fully understand what’s going on (Isle Tide Hotel) or to find out who the killer is (Who Pressed Mute on Uncle Marcus). I also like subtle differences in dialogues that for instance get you on someone’s good or bad side (In the 1st Degree). But I don’t want a dozen different stories.
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
that was my point to Diego, Walking Dead Season 1 sold a ton of copies but overall it did not really leave a lasting impact on any genre including adventure games, other than the fact that it might have made them even more casual.
Sorry, I was busy with work, and I also started a TWAU playthrough. I will have more to say about it later, but I will read through all these messages as I’m somewhat “responsible” for the discussion, as I mentioned the “impact” of Telltale.
We will never know, but if it weren’t for Telltale Games spawning those games between 2010-2015, and without German companies, we might have hit a brick wall. The genre might have zigzagged into oblivion, as it did during what I call the “dark age” between 2000-2005. This period followed the glory days where adventure developers weren’t sure whether they should make 3D or 2D adventures, or if they should be making adventures at all. What kept adventures “alive” at that period is a discussion on its own, but I firmly believe part of the reason is the rise of AGS software and hundreds of games that “imitated” LucasArts and Sierra.
Telltale was also one of the sole USA market producers, and you really need someone to develop adventures from the traditionally strongest market, even if it’s an interactive story - it’s still an adventure game. People who start with an interactive movie game will soon wish for something with “more meat around the game bones,” and that’s where the traditional adventure game steps up. There’s no need to reject Telltale’s “interactive movies” as illegitimate offspring of the genre. We can call it our own and wait for something different to balance the genre’s market. Variety is really a good thing. I don’t think more of one will mean less of the other. If there are a lot of apples in the store, that doesn’t mean there will be fewer oranges.
However, there’s also a point and trigger for discussion about whether fewer puzzles are setting the trend for other developers who are looking at the success of the original developer. That is bound to happen, copycat is present in art, music, gaming… since ever. But that again takes us back to the previous notion that it leaves room for other developers to counter it and have more opportunity in the market. However, Telltale rose from the ruins of LucasArts, and what is not good is that they shaped into a company producing only puzzle-lite games at the end of the day. I wasn’t a die-hard fan of Telltale games to start with, I never really got into the episodic format, but I respected and played a lot of their games. I can understand if some fans felt “betrayed.”
Recently finished: Four Last Things 4/5, Edna & Harvey: The Breakout 5/5, Chains of Satinav 3,95/5, A Vampyre Story 88, Sam Peters 3/5, Broken Sword 1 4,5/5, Broken Sword 2 4,3/5, Broken Sword 3 85, Broken Sword 5 81, Gray Matter 4/5\nCurrently playing: Broken Sword 4, Keepsake (Let\‘s Play), Callahan\‘s Crosstime Saloon (post-Community Playthrough)\nLooking forward to: A Playwright’s Tale
Generally speaking, I want a game to tell one story. There are always exceptions of course, and I enjoy exploring the many choices in IMs very much when they are necessary to fully understand what’s going on (Isle Tide Hotel) or to find out who the killer is (Who Pressed Mute on Uncle Marcus). I also like subtle differences in dialogues that for instance get you on someone’s good or bad side (In the 1st Degree). But I don’t want a dozen different stories.
This is pretty much my sentiment too. I like fiction of both the interactive and non-interactive kind. In both cases and as a general rule I want to take part of a story as the writer of the story has envisioned it. Period. I don’t mind the occasional choice but I actually prefer the choices not to have too much of an impact on the story itself. I don’t mind the least that Telltale’s games don’t tell completely different stories based on every choice that you make while playing it.
But to each his or her own. It’s a matter of taste/preferences/expectations. I’m lucky enough to like interactive fiction of all types, from visual novels and walking sims to puzzle heavy games and even the occasional shooter.
@GateKeeper
Have you ever made a list of those small(er) indie adventures, the good ones?
So it’s all about expectations of replayability. Seven, eight or a dozen different stories for the price of one. That’s what I said in post 921 (my hypothetical example in terms of the TWAU universe), which Mr Tirade ignored. And when a game doesn’t meet these personal preferences the game choices are fake and false and an illusion.
I was surprised to read this because I haven’t replayed a game other than the Lucasarts remasters and in my childhood when I had nothing better to do. Replayability isn’t a factor I consider when buying games.
Like Veovis, I enjoy both types of IF on some level. And what you say about having only one story makes sense. Maybe I just expected too much. Although I do wonder if there isn’t a way to have your cake and eat it too - I’ll need to think about this further. I do think the themes of a narrative can be told independently of setting and characters, and in fact Telltale games prove this - characters die and yet it is still “one story”.
My example was hypothetical only because I haven’t seen a better formula in an actual game. Maybe it just hasn’t been discovered yet. Also, CYOA novels are very different from video games, which offer much more than just selecting choices.
AKA Charo
I don’t get it. Why would you want a game that offers several different stories/branches if you only play one story?
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
The genre might have zigzagged into oblivion, as it did during what I call the “dark age” between 2000-2005. This period followed the glory days where adventure developers weren’t sure whether they should make 3D or 2D adventures, or if they should be making adventures at all. What kept adventures “alive” at that period is a discussion on its own, but I firmly believe part of the reason is the rise of AGS software and hundreds of games that “imitated” LucasArts and Sierra.
True, although that is not the whole picture.
That “dark age” is when Shenmue happened, and it was one of the most influential adventure games ever. I suppose those who don’t consider Telltale’s games adventures don’t approve that genre definition for Shenmue either, but it can be speculated that what eventually happened with Telltale’s games wouldn’t have happened if Shenmue hadn’t set a highly successful template for that.
Game engines that are easily available to developers certainly had their part in what happened during those years in the genre. Not only AGS, but there were others as well. For instance, Wintermute Engine was released in 2003.
@GateKeeper
Have you ever made a list of those small(er) indie adventures, the good ones?
You could say it’s a work in progress, but I don’t have anything ready at the moment that I could just copy-paste and release.
You might find some interesting ones in the freeware voting thread that I put together last year.
This site also used to have a nice article series called “Following freeware” that is no longer active, but you can check the older articles to find many good games.
And I’m sure if you ask for specific kind of games, you may get many recommendations. But as evidenced by this thread, opinions on what is good and what is worth playing can vary greatly between different people.
But if you want a completely random recommendation that is not related to anything discussed here really, with the possible exception of Diego’s talk about AGS, play NES Quest. It’s nice and funny short freeware game about a guy who wants to get his broken NES fixed.
I’m curious about your living document. My recently renewed interest and some quick research resulted in more good adventures than expected. I still haven’t played all of them. I was wondering how many exist and whether anyone has already made the effort to compile them.
Type of adventures? I’m easy to please: atmospheric, funny, naughty, well written, good puzzles & music, high res, modern interface, nothing slow and cumbersome, no sierra like games.
A Sam or Boston Low statue would be fun, nine verbs felt cumbersome, a few nice tunes, okayish puzzles, good length. I enjoyed it.
I don’t get it. Why would you want a game that offers several different stories/branches if you only play one story?
I don’t know if I get it either, but I think it’s about the freedom to choose. Human beings like freedom. We only live one life, one story, but we like having freedom even if it’s only an illusory freedom.
To use a gaming example, some people like open world games or roguelikes because they offer the player autonomy and the ability to plot your own course through the game, and don’t necessarily value them for their replayability.
You could also say the choices in The Walking Dead offer more than replayability, and that they do not detract from the story as the writer intended it. Although they could for some, say if someone is absolutely in love with the Doug character and thinks he shouldn’t die at the end of Chapter 1.
AKA Charo
I don’t get it. Why would you want a game that offers several different stories/branches if you only play one story?
I don’t know if I get it either, but I think it’s about the freedom to choose. Human beings like freedom. We only live one life, one story, but we like having freedom even if it’s only an illusory freedom.
To use a gaming example, some people like open world games or roguelikes because they offer the player autonomy and the ability to plot your own course through the game, and don’t necessarily value them for their replayability.
You could also say the choices in The Walking Dead offer more than replayability, and that they do not detract from the story as the writer intended it. Although they could for some, say if someone is absolutely in love with the Doug character and thinks he shouldn’t die at the end of Chapter 1.
My problem specifically with The Walking Dead Season 1 as somebody that played it three times through to see what really changes there was, is it all added up to nothing much changing. And it has nothing to do with loving a character or not. Some of my favorite characters have died in games and i still love the game. Once again my problem was the illusion of choice.
To make a clear example, that would be like going to a restaurant and they hand you a menu and your options are beef or chicken and you say okay I’ll order the chicken dish. They’re like cool, they bring it out you, and you eat three bites, but then they quickly take it away and put beef in front of you and say psych, just kidding, this is really your only option. You would not want to pay for that meal. that is a type of Storytelling Telltale thrives in and I don’t see why people can’t see through that, or at least acknowledge it. In The Walking Dead game they make you seem like you saved a character only to kill him off two scenes later, because that is the direction the story is going to get funneled down no matter what. that’s a false choice and plays perfectly to the example I just gave. If that kind of quick pull the rug out from under you storytelling doesn’t bother you, that’s cool but to act like it’s not there is a little strange to me. Like I said my other huge issue which everybody kind of danced on past was the fact that they purposely put things above your head to make you think decisions are way more important than they are. as I pointed out in the developer AMA that I posted, that it was done intentionally as a earmark to other developers of future episodes and was really mostly smoke and mirrors.
All that could be forgiven by me if the gameplay backed up anything but since this is the main gimmick of the game or hook aka “choice”, the fact that it is so poorly implemented makes the glaring issues even larger. Bc the only other major gameplay elements are a bunch of button mashing qtes, that most adventure game fans seem to hate and actually most Gamers hate in general because if you notice in other genres they’ve all but disappeared over the years as well, after being everywhere for a decade Plus.
For the record The Wolf Among Us was the last game I paid for, at least two episodes, but I have tried two others games, Tales from the Borderlands which once again had a really fun story but was not much of a game at all and Batman season 1. both games I got for free on the PlayStation Store. Those games continued the Telltale formula of choices that alter things very slightly, like in Batman, Two-Face can either have a dis-figured face or not based on a choice you make at the end of episode 1 if I remember correctly, but he still turns into a lunatic no matter what, which takes away agency from the character. So it was a stupid gimmick that didn’t add up to much besides a facial scarring that two-faced is known for, so in my version because I saved Harvey he did not have the facial scaring but his character traits remaind the same of a psychopath lol. Tales from the borderland had a fun story, but once again the gameplay was nothing more than a bunch of false choices and a lot of qte combat moves and I was like meh.
To your example about open world games, that’s an interesting one cuz once again I feel like the narrative is changing on those too because they used to be all the rage and Gamers loved them in general. I’ve seen countless articles and video essays about why they have fallen off to some extent and I think it’s because of the generic sameness to all of them. Which is exactly the problem with the Telltale formula as the developer put it. After a couple of games the basic premise of a Telltale Game lost its luster, just like to a lot of players open world games are starting to lose their appeal too because of the generic sameness and they are becoming stale. For anyone who’s interested here is one of my favorite video essays on the subject with over a million views.
To your example about open world games, that’s an interesting one cuz once again I feel like the narrative is changing on those too because they used to be all the rage and Gamers loved them in general. I’ve seen countless articles and video essays about why they have fallen off to some extent and I think it’s because of the generic sameness to all of them.
The point of open world games is that you can do other things, not just try to finish the game. In other words, they are trying to make the world feel like a real world, unlike traditional adventure games where some NPC is standing in one place all the time repeating the same sentence endlessly.
The video makes a good point about urgency though. This has been a big problem in open world games starting with Shenmue. If you are on a mission, in the case of Shenmue to avenge the death of your father, is it realistic to spend time in the game arcade playing video games? Or whatever else some other games have.
It’s cool to have that option, but in real life, it wouldn’t go like that.
I think open world games are a great concept though. And whatever problems there are with quests and side quests is probably a bigger issue with other genres.
To your example about open world games, that’s an interesting one cuz once again I feel like the narrative is changing on those too because they used to be all the rage and Gamers loved them in general. I’ve seen countless articles and video essays about why they have fallen off to some extent and I think it’s because of the generic sameness to all of them.
The point of open world games is that you can do other things, not just try to finish the game. In other words, they are trying to make the world feel like a real world, unlike traditional adventure games where some NPC is standing in one place all the time repeating the same sentence endlessly.
The video makes a good point about urgency though. This has been a big problem in open world games starting with Shenmue. If you are on a mission, in the case of Shenmue to avenge the death of your father, is it realistic to spend time in the game arcade playing video games? Or whatever else some other games have.
It’s cool to have that option, but in real life, it wouldn’t go like that.
I think open world games are a great concept though. And whatever problems there are with quests and side quests is probably a bigger issue with other genres.
I agree they dont need to vanish like qte. But they need to be less humongous. Most not all have an open world “formula.” i mean when i say an ubisoft open world, what image of a map pops in your head lol, I bet it’s an Assassin’s Creed map with a lot of useless markers throughout. The other thing I agree with the guy in the video about is some games simply do not need to be an open world, it would be far better as a linear experience, or as a hub world. which is one of the reasons I actually love The Witcher 2 a lot more than The Witcher 3. Other reason was I just enjoyed the political Intrigue of two way more than hunting down his daughter for a game in 3.
This will be my last post about telltale, time to move on. It has been fun.
Telltale explicitly hits you straight off with the words: “This game series adapts to the choices you make. The story is tailored by how you play”. This sets a very obvious expectation in people’s minds from the very beginning.
That expectation is a far cry from moving the goalposts to: “This game series offers you the illusion of choice. The choices you make are not purposed to shape or adapt the story, but are meant to give your actions weight”
Those two philosophies are pretty explicitly contrary to each other. I would certainly be willing to accept the latter, if the game didn’t explicitly promise the former from the very beginning in bold text, or if the game had real gameplay to counteract the illusion.
Back to the topic, I am playing another Sherlock Holmes game, I probably won’t write a review for it because it’s just not caputring me, but I’m pressing on with it, for awhile.
@Gatekeeper
I think, after some more serious research, I found (most of) what’s good. You have to go through tons of crap, mediocrity and mixed bags for a few really good ones, but those were worth the effort.
You were gone for a while, so I didn’t reply. But now that you’re back I would appreciate an answer to my question that at least makes some sense to me.
My question was directed at YOU, I wasn’t talking about what other players like or dislike. First you said you agreed with Jdawg’s frustration about choices not mattering enough. And you posted a scheme of the branches you expect from a choice-based game. But then you say you never replay games. So why in God’s name do YOU want a game that offers several different stories/branches if you only play one?
I don’t get it. Why would you want a game that offers several different stories/branches if you only play one story?
I don’t know if I get it either, but I think it’s about the freedom to choose. Human beings like freedom. We only live one life, one story, but we like having freedom even if it’s only an illusory freedom.
To use a gaming example, some people like open world games or roguelikes because they offer the player autonomy and the ability to plot your own course through the game, and don’t necessarily value them for their replayability.
You could also say the choices in The Walking Dead offer more than replayability, and that they do not detract from the story as the writer intended it. Although they could for some, say if someone is absolutely in love with the Doug character and thinks he shouldn’t die at the end of Chapter 1.
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
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