Adventure Gamers - Forums

Textbook-training? No patience for manuals? I honestly don’t see the problem so many people seem to have with manuals. I’ll use Deponia’s tutorial as an example. Yes, Monolith, I’ll repeat just for you that it is skippable. I liked it because it’s funny, not because it was in any way useful. (The tutorial of Chaos on Deponia is virtually identical, with a different NPC and some extra lines.)

So let’s assume I have never played a computer game. Well, even BEFORE the tutorial starts, the player has to choose between two kinds of inventory: mousewheel-driven or traditional. Inventory? Traditional? Eh… I don’t have a clue. In the next five minutes I learn six things: how to talk to someone, look at objects, take objects, open my inventory, combine objects and use objects. That’s it. I still need the manual for very useful information like: the two ways to access your inventory, saving and restoring, minigames, pressing the space bar to show hotspots, and keyboard shortcuts, like F5, F6, F9, F12, M, -/+.

We cannot do without manuals, not even players who want to be spoon-fed. It would be a drag if we had to replay a tutorial just to find a few keyboard shortcuts neatly arranged in an easy-reference manual.

Fien - 04 November 2012 01:11 PM

Well, I’m sorry, but I still disagree with everything you’ve said. No point in discussing it further. And I still think you’re contradicting yourself.

Contradicting myself? The basic gist of what I was saying was “manuals = bad/outdated; tutorials = good”.
Things got muddied a bit with the topic of “manuals with more goodies than instructions”, though.

Zifnab - 04 November 2012 06:53 PM

So if I forget how to do something I have to save my game, start a new one and play through four missions of introduction? I would hate having to go back through a long tutorial to get a tiny piece of info I missed earlier.

It’s not exactly rocket science to begin with, and even if you forget something, the game reminds you of it later on if it seems you’re struggling. Sort of like a perpetual tutorial.
I don’t remember if you can skip them the second time around or not, but even if you can’t, the introductory missions don’t feel like tutorial missions and they’re very much a part of the game in L.A. Noire.
Well implemented, imo.

You also said interface and gameplay should be so simple that people can play a game without any instructions at all. Or words to that effect, I’m not going to look it up. And other contradictory stuff. I really don’t feel like discussing it again.

Fien - 05 November 2012 07:19 AM

You also said interface and gameplay should be so simple that people can play a game without any instructions at all. Or words to that effect, I’m not going to look it up.

Wow, that’s something I’d NEVER say!
Either you misinterpreted what I did say, or I didn’t explain myself very well.

My bolded quote on the last page (if you need to read a manual to be able to play the game, then the game is badly designed) wasn’t about me suggesting that the interface and gameplay should be simple (as to not require any instructions), it was about the fact that they should be explained in-game (by means of a tutorial or an introductory chapter).

I don’t want games to be ridiculously easy (both in terms of interface and gameplay as well as content). I just don’t want to have to read a manual anymore in this day and age. When most games are download-only, manuals should be redundant or obsolete.

Fien -

So let’s assume I have never played a computer game. Well, even BEFORE the tutorial starts, the player has to choose between two kinds of inventory: mousewheel-driven or traditional. Inventory? Traditional? Eh… I don’t have a clue.

Bad tutorial design. Those questions should come AFTER or DURING the tutorial.

Just because I think tutorials are better than manuals doesn’t mean that they don’t have to be designed well. Something which may not be all that easy in an adventure game (see that Dave Grossman article).

Fien -

In the next five minutes I learn six things: how to talk to someone, look at objects, take objects, open my inventory, combine objects and use objects. That’s it. I still need the manual for very useful information like: the two ways to access your inventory, saving and restoring, minigames, pressing the space bar to show hotspots, and keyboard shortcuts, like F5, F6, F9, F12, M, -/+.

Incomplete = bad tutorial design.

Fien -

We cannot do without manuals, not even players who want to be spoon-fed. It would be a drag if we had to replay a tutorial just to find a few keyboard shortcuts neatly arranged in an easy-reference manual.

If a game doesn’t offer the option to reassign keyboard controls, the designers did something wrong.
If the keyboard controls CAN be reassigned, you’ll find all of the shortcuts neatly arranged in an in-game menu as well. Which is how I prefer it.

For “simple” games like adventures, I really feel that if I need to open the manual, then the designers did something wrong.
And I also feel that if someone completely new to gaming is baffled even by a tutorial, then the designers did something wrong.

TimovieMan - 05 November 2012 12:28 PM

I just don’t want to have to read a manual anymore in this day and age.

But I do want a manual. I’m not a newcomer, I don’t need a tutorial with the same old basic stuff. If there are new features I should know about, I’ll look them up in the manual. If the tutorial is skippable and by skipping I don’t miss a part of the game, fine. As long as the developers provide a manual as well.

When most games are download-only, manuals should be redundant or obsolete.

I don’t see any connection between download-only and your “redundancy” of manuals.

Fien - 05 November 2012 03:39 PM

I don’t see any connection between download-only and your “redundancy” of manuals.

Download-only means you don’t have a booklet manual, but a .pdf manual. Reading the manual from a screen is not convenient, and reading the manual WHILE playing the game is damn near impossible unless you play the game windowed or have a dual screen setup.

So, nowadays, when almost all adventure games are download only, manuals should cease to be used, and should be replaced by an in-game tutorial…

Manuals had their use in the past, when games were a lot more limited. Now that reading the manual has become awkward, and games more complex in nature, the tutorials should fill the gap…

TimovieMan - 05 November 2012 04:16 PM

Reading the manual from a screen is not convenient,

What?!? I have no problem with PDF files, read them all the time. You can print them if you like. Another advantage is that you can search for words in online manuals.

So, nowadays, when almost all adventure games are download only, manuals should cease to be used, and should be replaced by an in-game tutorial…

I can’t have a manual because you find them inconvenient? I’m glad you’re not (yet) the Chief of the Manual Police. 

inm8#2 - 05 November 2012 07:46 PM

If he gets to be Chief of the Manual Police, I want to be the deputy!

Just kidding. I like manuals in any shape, way, and form. PDF manuals don’t seem like too much of a pain for developers to whip up, so it’s kind of nice to have that element.

Especially since you can put those manuals on your tablet pc or phone for convenience. That I can agree with. Having a physical manual though, is SOOO pointless in the industry today.

Let me also add that you’ll much sooner entice a new gamer (who has little to no gaming experience) with an easy-to-use tutorial, than with a manual and no in-game tutorial.
And if that’s not an important point in our niche, then I don’t know what is…

Oscar - 06 November 2012 07:06 AM

I couldn’t care less about enticing new gamers, personally.

So you’d prefer to watch our beloved genre wither and die?

Oscar - 06 November 2012 07:06 AM

And if a developer is sitting at his desk thinking “how can I entice people into playing this?” rather than focusing on making a great game, then that doesn’t bode well for our ‘niche’ anyway.

Tutorials (and enticing people to play the game) are in the “polish” category - things that should be done AFTER the game was already “made great”, imo.

Oscar - 06 November 2012 07:06 AM

I couldn’t care less about enticing new gamers, personally. Especially if it means destroying the things I like about adventure games.

And if a developer is sitting at his desk thinking “how can I entice people into playing this?” rather than focusing on making a great game, then that doesn’t bode well for our ‘niche’ anyway.

I don’t know what is sadder than this. Lose a simple and useless item despite it having no affect on adventure gameplay at all. Or keep it, and we lose adventure gaming all together?

Monolith - 06 November 2012 03:25 PM

I don’t know what is sadder than this. Lose a simple and useless item despite it having no affect on adventure gameplay at all. Or keep it, and we lose adventure gaming all together?

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAA!!!

Ludicrous!