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No new postsReturn to Monkey island by Ron Gilbert : 19 september 2022
i have heard that Thomas Edison never liked Nikolas Tesla
I never liked the art in DotT. Technically and artistically it was fantastic, but I never liked the wacky Chuck Jones style. But that was Dave and Tim’s game, not mine. They can do what they want and I completely supported that.
Curse of Monkey Island also took a leap forward. It introduced us to a fully voiced and taller, lankier Guybrush with painted backgrounds that were all the rage in the late 90s. It was very much a game of its time.
He is not super critical with his hot takes, but why even take a potshot at all. other than trying to say his art is better than those games. Spoiler warning: it is not
Personally, I don’t think that there’s anything intrinsically wrong with what Ron said in those quotes, in and of itself. He acknowledged that the art style in Day of the Tentacle was objectively well executed, whilst also stating that on a subjective level, he didn’t care for it personally. The man’s entitled to his opinion.
However, as I see it, the issue is that Ron has thrown his toys out of the pram because some people have said they they don’t personally care for the art direction in Return to Monkey Island. That makes him somewhat of a hypocrite. By and large, those who have been critical of the art direction have also stated that it’s entirely subjective and that Ron has the right to make the game the way he wants to make it. So, it’s acceptable for him to be critical of the art direction for games he didn’t make but it’s not acceptable for other people to be critical of the art direction for a game which he did make? That’s a contradiction and also a disappointingly egocentric stance to hear from a creative whom I otherwise greatly respect.
It’s also interesting to hear Ron talk negatively about the art direction in The Curse of Monkey Island because as far as I can tell, the vast majority of those who have been critical of the art direction in Return to Monkey Island, absolutely adored Bill Tiller’s art in The Curse of Monkey Island. That pretty much puts paid to the strawman argument that the only issue that people have with the art style in Return to Monkey Island is that it’s “not pixel art”, given that the backgrounds in The Curse of Monkey Island were hand-drawn. It’s also interesting to note that Ron Gilbert says that he doesn’t like the art style of Day of the Tentacle but then chose an art style with heavily evokes that same style for Return to Monkey Island (albeit a kind of low-rent version of that style).
Quite honestly, I’m not sure what Ron’s point is. I’m not even sure that he knows. I heavily suspect that he’s simply got a bruised ego from people not just unequivocally praising everything which he turns his hand to.
Yeah, it’s just his signature grump. Nothing wildly antagonistic.
I imagine his lifeline with the adventure game scene, for the longest time, has been his website. It has that name for a reason; I think his critical thinking tends to take the form of contrasting what he values with something he thinks warrants a negative label. I think he tends to start with a hot take and then find arguments and nuance. There’s a mixture of weariness and belief things can be better and it’s also a surefire way to get some engagement going.
Dangling the possibility of a new Monkey Island game, in combination with his tendency to present video game/puzzle design as a craft. Not being too keen on the directions the genre went after his early retirement. Buying a house on the dock, watching the other ships take off, if they happened to pass by close enough.
I get the sense Ron Gilbert feels comfortable in his old role, as a senior developer with plenty of clout and a couple of important insights into and ideas about adventure games.
It’s different from being an active developer, being part of the actual ecosystem. That’s a leap into territory way more difficult to navigate. He’s setting out to sail once more, to face the stormy market and heated discussions the industry has been known for since it’s inception. And like the social-economical equivalent of global warming, the storms and heat are more intense than they were in the early 90s.
I think Ron’s way of engaging with his audience on his website might not work as well with his hands on the ship’s wheel. The game will probably sell. It will probably get some ceremonial release, the kind that is generally afforded to people who fall under the Disney umbrella. People are definitely talking about it. But hype and excitement are preferable to negative ping pong. All publicity is good publicity is a bad publisher’s last resort.
At this point in time.. it does get people talking. This whole thread is basically free publicity. I can imagine dealing with people’s opinions of you and your work as a weird and uncomfortable experience, which is why I think (most) developers are better off represented by others, the multimedia savvy who can absorb potential criticism because it’s their job and it’s not about them, their merit or artistic intent.. I get how some developers really couldn’t justify the extra costs and in some cases you need to be in luck, but it can be done.*
I once heard Jeff Vogel of the excellent indie-rpg company Spiderweb Software recommend developers pay for an accountant, rather than try and be professional bookkeepers and experts on tax code in addition to coding, designing, etc. If you’re some kind of renaissance character who can pull that off, in addition to being charming and professional on the internet, congratulations on being highly effective.
* I was pretty critical of Not Another Weekend for example, but I did stick with my commitment to testing the game. This worked very well because of Chris_Dionous’s positive attitude and professionalism (and what I suspect is at least some knowledge of user/customer service).
I will say that it’s pleasent to be able to discuss topics on this forum in a civil and blanced manner. Reading the forums over on Mix n Mojo is horribly depressing. As per usual, that place is full to the brim with idiocracy.
“You dared not like the art style in the screenshots from Return to Monkey Island?! You are the TOXIC fandom!”
“You think it’s a shame that they recast Bosco’s voice for the Sam & Max remaster and are opposed to revisionist historical preservation?! You are a literal NAZI!” (they literally implied this, when they labeled anyone and everyone who was not 100% in support of the recast as a “proud boy” in their review of the remaster of Sam & Max season 1 - I got into a huge back and forth with the site’s mods, Remi and Jason, over it*. It was absolutely pathetic on their part)
It occurs to me that such people are the true “toxic” fans. They’re the ones shouting down and gaslighting anyone who doesn’t share their own personal, subjective opinion. People ought to be allowed to express their own tastes. So what if I and others didn’t particularly care for the art style in the screenshots for Return for Monkey Island? The way they harp on, you’d think it was the crime of the century. For what? Having subjective tastes and expressing those opinions?
*Check out the comments section here (start from the bottom of the page and work your way up), if you want to see what I’m referring to (though that comment chain only represents a portion of the back and forth that we engaged in). Also, note that when they wrote the subsequent review for the second remastered season of Sam & Max, they made a point of using the “proud boys” insult again, purely to double down and insult me personally. It’s beyond pathetic. ‘Childish’ is the word which springs to mind.
I missed it; where did Ron say mean stuff about Day of the Tentacle?
Here ya go.
I never liked the art in DotT. Technically and artistically it was fantastic, but I never liked the wacky Chuck Jones style. But that was Dave and Tim’s game, not mine. They can do what they want and I completely supported that.
Curse of Monkey Island also took a leap forward. It introduced us to a fully voiced and taller, lankier Guybrush with painted backgrounds that were all the rage in the late 90s. It was very much a game of its time.
He is not super critical with his hot takes, but why even take a potshot at all. other than trying to say his art is better than those games. Spoiler warning: it is not
I don’t read those comments as negative or hot. It seems that he his stating his preference for more realistic—or at least, less cartoony—art over stylized cartoony art.
Personally, I think DoTT and CoMI (along with Full Throttle, which also has an animated aesthetic) were the best of the Lucas Arts adventure games. So Ron’s preferences are definitely not mine, too—but the guy has a right to talk, and it doesn’t seem like he’s trying to be incendiary or even negative.
Player, purveyor, and propagator of smart toys and games for all ages.
Facebook.com/weplayfaves
IG @weplayfaves
And getting back to Ron’s fedora meme and the Shhhh… meme.
St. Eddie, did Ron actually ever post the Shhhh or just the fedora one? Because I don’t think the two are comparable, in tone or message.
So, is anyone in this thread not going to make playing it an adventure game playing priority, based on the art or Ron’s behavior?
VP: That unhip elder statesman fogeyism Happens in music *so* often, but I think it’s still hard for fans to understand. For example: How could Metallica/Megadeth/Slayer, a few of the so called godfathers of metal, be so out of touch with the contemporary scene and tour with ‘poser bands’ and draw from ‘poser influences’ and name drop these bands as modern luminaries? Fact is, a lot of creators are more interested in creating than consuming, and this makes them less interested in the consumables themselves and the world that evolves around those consumables. So sometimes they miss out on recent innovations in the objects themselves, and also in the zeitgeist of what people want, or who their people even are anymore.
Player, purveyor, and propagator of smart toys and games for all ages.
Facebook.com/weplayfaves
IG @weplayfaves
!
I missed it; where did Ron say mean stuff about Day of the Tentacle?
Here ya go.
I never liked the art in DotT. Technically and artistically it was fantastic, but I never liked the wacky Chuck Jones style. But that was Dave and Tim’s game, not mine. They can do what they want and I completely supported that.
Curse of Monkey Island also took a leap forward. It introduced us to a fully voiced and taller, lankier Guybrush with painted backgrounds that were all the rage in the late 90s. It was very much a game of its time.
He is not super critical with his hot takes, but why even take a potshot at all. other than trying to say his art is better than those games. Spoiler warning: it is not
I don’t read those comments as negative or hot. It seems that he his stating his preference for more realistic—or at least, less cartoony—art over stylized cartoony art.
Personally, I think DoTT and CoMI (along with Full Throttle, which also has an animated aesthetic) were the best of the Lucas Arts adventure games. So Ron’s preferences are definitely not mine, too—but the guy has a right to talk, and it doesn’t seem like he’s trying to be incendiary or even negative.
I will simply say I disagree, there was no need to bring up those 30 year old games art styles, other than to prop up the art in His new game. That’s why I called it a pot shot, bc it was not a burn the bridge statement or incendiary as you put it. Another way you can look at it, is it was a backhanded compliment. For example if you brought food to a party and somebody told you, well this ain’t too bad for being store-bought. It is not a downright burn but it’s definitely implied that their homemade food is better. Same goes with his statement here.
I missed it; where did Ron say mean stuff about Day of the Tentacle?
Here ya go.
I never liked the art in DotT. Technically and artistically it was fantastic, but I never liked the wacky Chuck Jones style. But that was Dave and Tim’s game, not mine. They can do what they want and I completely supported that.
Curse of Monkey Island also took a leap forward. It introduced us to a fully voiced and taller, lankier Guybrush with painted backgrounds that were all the rage in the late 90s. It was very much a game of its time.
He is not super critical with his hot takes, but why even take a potshot at all. other than trying to say his art is better than those games. Spoiler warning: it is not
I don’t read those comments as negative or hot. It seems that he his stating his preference for more realistic—or at least, less cartoony—art over stylized cartoony art.
Personally, I think DoTT and CoMI (along with Full Throttle, which also has an animated aesthetic) were the best of the Lucas Arts adventure games. So Ron’s preferences are definitely not mine, too—but the guy has a right to talk, and it doesn’t seem like he’s trying to be incendiary or even negative.
I fully agree. He simply stated his opinion on the matter, which is quite relevant due to the debacle on choice of art-style in games.
The funny thing is, people who has been very vocal about his choice in this game (And often straight up rude about it) is now up in arms about a fairly moderate opinion on these classics while keeping up their hardline attitude on “flash-like” graphics and whatnot.
Message #43
So, it’s acceptable for him to be critical of the art direction for games he didn’t make but it’s not acceptable for other people to be critical of the art direction for a game which he did make? That’s a contradiction and also a disappointingly egocentric stance to hear from a creative whom I otherwise greatly respect.
I think you’ve been exaggerating things. That part in Ron’s post regarding DoTT and CoMI wasn’t even aimed at those games. It was about the supposed outrage from fans who want to see Return as a pixel art game. To illustrate the thesis that Return doesn’t have to feature pixel art to be enjoyed he mentioned how two of the sequels to his own games featured completely different “evolved” art styles. And while he - personally - isn’t a fan of those styles and would’ve made things differently, he still supported people behind those sequels because he generally approves “pushing forward” instead of doing same thing again and again. And he expects those who want a pixel art Monkey Island to do the same.
Now I also didn’t notice that many complaints regarding the game not being pixel art, but it seems like this is Gilbert’s main concern, while he also wants to assure everyone that the new art style will be just as refreshing as the changes that came with DoTT and Curse.
PC means personal computer
I missed it; where did Ron say mean stuff about Day of the Tentacle?
Here ya go.
I never liked the art in DotT. Technically and artistically it was fantastic, but I never liked the wacky Chuck Jones style. But that was Dave and Tim’s game, not mine. They can do what they want and I completely supported that.
Curse of Monkey Island also took a leap forward. It introduced us to a fully voiced and taller, lankier Guybrush with painted backgrounds that were all the rage in the late 90s. It was very much a game of its time.
He is not super critical with his hot takes, but why even take a potshot at all. other than trying to say his art is better than those games. Spoiler warning: it is not
Frankly, I don’t see any problem with what he said. He gave his opinion, he may like or dislike something just like us. I like that he speak honestly rather than acting like a hypocrite, say something opposite to what’s in his mind.
I will say that it’s pleasent to be able to discuss topics on this forum in a civil and blanced manner. Reading the forums over on Mix n Mojo is horribly depressing. As per usual, that place is full to the brim with idiocracy.
“You dared not like the art style in the screenshots from Return to Monkey Island?! You are the TOXIC fandom!”
“You think it’s a shame that they recast Bosco’s voice for the Sam & Max remaster and are opposed to revisionist historical preservation?! You are a literal NAZI!” (they literally implied this, when they labeled anyone and everyone who was not 100% in support of the recast as a “proud boy” in their review of the remaster of Sam & Max season 1 - I got into a huge back and forth with the site’s mods, Remi and Jason, over it*. It was absolutely pathetic on their part)
It occurs to me that such people are the true “toxic” fans. They’re the ones shouting down and gaslighting anyone who doesn’t share their own personal, subjective opinion. People ought to be allowed to express their own tastes. So what if I and others didn’t particularly care for the art style in the screenshots for Return for Monkey Island? The way they harp on, you’d think it was the crime of the century. For what? Having subjective tastes and expressing those opinions?
*Check out the comments section here (start from the bottom of the page and work your way up), if you want to see what I’m referring to (though that comment chain only represents a portion of the back and forth that we engaged in). Also, note that when they wrote the subsequent review for the second remastered season of Sam & Max, they made a point of using the “proud boys” insult again, purely to double down and insult me personally. It’s beyond pathetic. ‘Childish’ is the word which springs to mind.
Yes, I agree. i have been an avid reader of mixnmojo since the beginning. I left last year because of the attitude of mojo staff and other regulars towards users who did not agree 100% with every decision different devs made in regards to these games. It felt like people wre being accused of being nazis/racists and whatnot, just because they had a difference in opinion, and tried to discuss these matters in a civil manner.
It makes me sad, because I love LucasArts games, but I do not regret for one second leaving that toxic and aggressive crowd behind. It has become the sort of echo chamber the mojo staff accuses anyone who disagrees with them to be living in.
I really think they should show Guybrush very soon.
Everybody has their own take on how Guybrush should look so the reveal may cause some controversy.
The sooner they show it, the more time it gives us to adjust to the new look.
I think you’ve been exaggerating things. That part in Ron’s post regarding DoTT and CoMI wasn’t even aimed at those games. It was about the supposed outrage from fans who want to see Return as a pixel art game.
Please do quote someone, anyone, who said that their problem with the art style in the screenshots was that it wasn’t pixel art. I’ll be here, waiting…
It’s a strawman argument.
Please do quote someone, anyone, who said that their problem with the art style in the screenshots was that it wasn’t pixel art. I’ll be here, waiting…
It’s a strawman argument.
You seem to confuse me with Gilbert. Wait all you want, I’m not making any arguments here nor am I reading any feedback besides these forums, I just pointed out that he wasn’t attacking DoTT or Curse in his post, but merely tried to sell this new art style to fans using those games as examples.
PC means personal computer
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