Adventure Gamers - Forums

I finished the game. The ending felt rushed, Edgar shows up, his parents show up out of nowhere. Witch is sister and turns into a baby. Everyone is happy. The end.. Also, where is Graham? He doesn’t even show up in the last 2 games?

I felt, unlike the others games in the series, the game is not very interesting now. It does some things that became more standard in modern games - simplified interface, auto-save, divided episodes, hotspots - but by doing the game became mostly tedious focusing on plot and characters that are not that interesting and technical achievments that have not aged very well (jerky and slow animations, uneven character art).

The one-click interface is specially unfit for the series, lot even having a look button kind of made it feel like some casual games where you just look for hotspots in the environment to interact and click to see what happens.  Puzzles ramp up in difficulty in the last 3 chapters but because of the limitations mostly by adding really small hotspots and annoying timed puzzles.

I understand why there is a lot of strong negative reactions to this game, I played Phantasmagoria when it was released and really really disliked it for oversimplifying everything in adventure games, this one has harder puzzles, but if I was into Kings Quest at the time I would probably have raged against this game

Playing it now it’s probably the most playable game by current sensibilities, but that also makes the most uninteresting because modern adventures do what this game does much better. Also interesting that all the evolution in the Kings Series interface is about taking control out of the player dimishing the sense of exploration.

mbday630 - 05 January 2015 09:17 PM

Wilco, I think if you do the shift and the Plus key she walks faster. I remember being annoyed with her “slow walking” too I there was some trick to it. Try that.

This worked and helped a lot in the final chapters! Standard walking and animations are so slow…

fov - 06 January 2015 01:35 PM

Anyway, what kills KQ7 for me is that it’s so damn annoying. Valanice and Rosella are both sniveling and weak with grating voice acting to match, and I remember that whole troll sequence being doubly obnoxious because now the snively weak character constantly laments how awful it is to be a TROLL [insert dramatic whine].

Sorry… think I had a bit of a flashback there. :o

 

Very true. Voice acting and characters was too much theatrical or something. Voice volume also kept changing. Rosella character was better in KQ4.

Now to try KQ8… well, why not?

What series will you do next wilco? I’m hoping for Police Quest.

Zifnab - 09 January 2015 06:09 AM

What series will you do next wilco? I’m hoping for Police Quest.

I was thinking of Quest for Glory but the Police Quest suggestion does sound more interesting for a change from the fantasy setting and a is series I know almost nothing about.

wilco - 09 January 2015 05:51 AM

Also interesting that all the evolution in the Kings Series interface is about taking control out of the player diminishing the sense of exploration.

I agree with this, in part, but I wouldn’t call point-and-click JUST a loss of control.  While the point-and-click interface certainly limits a player’s options in terms of how they can interact with the world, it also refined them by removing the guesswork of trying to figure out what objects in the environment WERE.  No longer did you have to try to type the same thing over and over using slightly different wording to see if that thing you want to try to interact with is actually a thing.  In P&C, you see something, you click on it, and if it’s interactive, you find out right away.

Point and click solved a long-standing problem with the parser interface.  The “Smart” cursor was a “fix” for something that wasn’t broken.  Big difference. 

Lambonius - 09 January 2015 12:17 PM

I agree with this, in part, but I wouldn’t call point-and-click JUST a loss of control.  While the point-and-click interface certainly limits a player’s options in terms of how they can interact with the world, it also refined them by removing the guesswork of trying to figure out what objects in the environment WERE.  No longer did you have to try to type the same thing over and over using slightly different wording to see if that thing you want to try to interact with is actually a thing.  In P&C, you see something, you click on it, and if it’s interactive, you find out right away.

Point and click solved a long-standing problem with the parser interface.  The “Smart” cursor was a “fix” for something that wasn’t broken.  Big difference. 

The evolution was about making it more simple and accessible for the mass market. The Kings Quest manuals in gog have some neat passages from Roberta (I think they are from a collection). The KQ5 manual in one of the passages says:

The market was changing to where people didn’t want to take the time to learn to type, spell, or figure out just how you talk to a computer via a adventure game. I had to design an icon interface with that future in mind: something that’s about as easy to use as it’s going to get. On a design note, I prefered working with the no-type interface because I had more time to think about the plot and puzzles instead of writing all those error messages for people typing things that alternated from the story.

I think it might reflect 2 things: 1- Lucasarts was using point-and-click and the market was preferring it so Sierra should go there. 2- From the developers view point-and-click interface is better because it takes freedom and control from the player and his actions and gives it to the developer, so it’s easier to predict the outcome and easier to tell the story. The problem could be that keeping the player in controlled actions could diminuish his feeling of being an adventurer exploring an unknown world (that I felt it was awesome in KQ3).
I didn’t feel like the evolution was a fix of KQ games to better suit the series but an adaptation to where the adventure game mass market was going. Of course it was probably the better and only option for the series.
KQ7 felt like an evolution in trying to make the controls even simpler and accessible but might have been too constrictive.

Man, KQ Mask of Eternity really is a mess at first… The age doesn’t really justify the looks and controls. Anyone thinks it has redeeming qualities later and should be played?

Anyone played the game on gog? The in-game is running fine so far but the intro video doesn’t play. Might be problems with the video cutscenes on modern systems.

wilco - 09 January 2015 02:48 PM

Man, KQ Mask of Eternity really is a mess at first… The age doesn’t really justify the looks and controls. Anyone thinks it has redeeming qualities later and should be played?

Anyone played the game on gog? The in-game is running fine so far but the intro video doesn’t play. Might be problems with the video cutscenes on modern systems.

once you accept it for what it is, i think it’s probably worth finishing. i remember putting in the time to beat it and it getting slightly better as it went on, but i never replayed it since.

wilco - 09 January 2015 05:51 AM

I finished the game. The ending felt rushed, Edgar shows up, his parents show up out of nowhere. Witch is sister and turns into a baby. Everyone is happy. The end.. Also, where is Graham? He doesn’t even show up in the last 2 games?

pretty sure he is in the good ending of KQVI?

RockNFknRoll - 09 January 2015 03:12 PM

wilco - 09 January 2015 05:51 AM

I finished the game. The ending felt rushed, Edgar shows up, his parents show up out of nowhere. Witch is sister and turns into a baby. Everyone is happy. The end.. Also, where is Graham? He doesn’t even show up in the last 2 games?

pretty sure he is in the good ending of KQVI?

Absolutely correct. I forgot that.

I agree with all the things you wrote about KQ7, wilco. Good thoughts!

Now that you’re done with KQ7, I can post something I’ve been writing about how KQ7 deviates from prior King’s Quests.

Characterization

Rosella the immature?
Rosella in KQ4 struck me as mature and resourceful for her age, not the whiny, “I want to have fun!” Rosella of KQ7. One obvious example from KQ4 is how she risked her own safety to help her father, but even KQ3 characterized Rosella as unselfish and responsible.

Characters regress in order to give them arcs
Previous KQ games did not really have character arcs, not even KQ5 or KQ6. Instead, the stories were about how the characters overcame external plot problems. KQ7 tries to add character arcs for Rosella and Valanice. Since they were already stalwart, nigh perfect heroes, KQ7 has to regress them in order to give them some place to go. Rosella starts out whiny so she can grow back into being the more responsible character she already was in previous installments. Valanice we know less about, but KQ7 starts her out as a little bit out-of-touch and domineering so that it can bring her to a greater understanding of her daughter later.

Continuity

Rosella the naïve?
Why does Rosella want so badly to go on an adventure to a land beyond dreams? I get why she doesn’t want to get married and why she enjoys adventure, but does anyone else feel like KQ7 acts as if she’s sheltered and has never left Daventry? The designers of KQ7 were clearly mimicking the Disney renaissance heroines like Ariel, Belle, and Jasmine, all of whom feel penned in and have some desire to see the world beyond their home. But in doing so, the designers played down the fact that Rosella doesn’t have a similar history to those characters. She has already traveled a fair bit and been on adventures. In KQ3, she is sacrificed to a dragon; in KQ4, she goes on a quest to Tamir; and in KQ6, she visits the Land of the Green Isles for Alexander’s wedding.

KQ6 thread dropped
KQ6 set up this whole Black Cloak Society thread that is unceremoniously dropped in KQ7. Bummer.

Retcon of a KQ4 character
[spoiler]This is a small complaint, but the revelation that Edgar is not really Lolotte’s son is a retcon and clashes with KQ4.[/spoiler]

Structure

More linear
KQ7 is more linear and compartmentalized than prior games. That’s been a general trend in adventure games, but it’s a big step away from the free exploration of KQ1 and KQ2. Even KQ5 and KQ6 (which are themselves quite different in structure from KQ1) let you visit locations and tackle tasks in a more flexible order.

Going home is fundamentally a bit unheroic
The problem with separating Rosella and Valanice and giving them the goal to “somehow” reunite and go home is that it makes their adventures somewhat aimless for much of the game. Each new location is a place you need to escape, so a lot of what you do there is just overcome obstructions to actual forward progress. I think heroic games work better when you give the player a goal to travel to a specific place on purpose and accomplish a feat.

Tone:

Too cutesy
Even the supposedly scary land in KQ7 is called Ooga-Booga Land and is mostly cutesy with only a few attempts at actual creepiness. Compare this to KQ4. Forum member Dance Magic Dance wrote an interesting post about how KQ4 tried to be genuinely creepy (by kid standards). “Horror” is overstating the case, but essentially his or her analysis seems correct to me.

Anti-climaxes
King’s Quest games were always kid-friendly and had elements of humor, but with the exception of the occasional yeti, the KQ games took most threats seriously in an old-fashioned storybook way. I can’t think of any memorable confrontations in KQ7. It too often undercuts threats. You get past the werewolf by bonking him on the nose with a slingshot. (see here) You defeat Malicia by turning her into a baby. (see here)

The Disney look and feel
The art is definitely a contributing factor to the cutesy tone. Disney was always one of several influences on King’s Quest along with mythology and fairy tales, but KQ7 throws the proportion out of whack. I don’t think the art is the deepest problem, it’s more a symptom of how KQ7 has Disney envy in general (the character arcs, the tone). That being said, I do think KQ5 and KQ6 look better.

Some of these issues would not be issues if this game were the first in a series, like Torin’s Passage. I even love Disney movies! But for King’s Quest, these changes bugged me.

I feel like I’m picking on KQ7 a lot. As I said before, I actually consider it an OK-to-good game on its own terms. It’s been a long time since I’ve played it, so I’ve forgotten a lot, but I still remember it as having some memorable elements like the crystal dragon that needs its spark. The dragon looked pretty cool when 3-D was still a novelty. Some of the characters and environments are fun.

And KQ7 is certainly less of a deviation than Mask of Eternity.

wilco - 09 January 2015 02:48 PM

Man, KQ Mask of Eternity really is a mess at first… The age doesn’t really justify the looks and controls. Anyone thinks it has redeeming qualities later and should be played?

Is KQ:MOE a good game? No, not really. It’s mainly of historical interest for its desperate attempt to reinvent the series, and it would probably be forgotten today if not for the KQ name. Give it a little time, but I wouldn’t blame you if you skipped it.

wilco - 09 January 2015 02:33 PM

I think it might reflect 2 things: 1- Lucasarts was using point-and-click and the market was preferring it so Sierra should go there.

This is true. Roberta actually played Monkey Island and wrote a memo about their UI and how Sierra’s UI could be adapted to something more like it. This was posted online at some point, maybe Ken’s SierraGamers site, but I can’t find it now. I’ll keep looking.

EDIT: Found it! This was written before Phantasmagoria was developed, and goes into detail about why she likes stuff like smart cursors and that the audience is expanding to include “computer illiterate” people (hence the move to a simpler interface).

EDIT2: Also, some interesting stuff here about what was cut from KQ7’s original design, including two additional chapters and an ending sequence with Graham in it.

Great post, Cal.

Regarding Disney envy, I think the biggest problem with KQ7’s take on the Disney formula is that aside from the art style, it doesn’t REALLY follow the Disney formula.  It leans way too heavily on the cutesy/wacky/childish aspects of a cartoon world, without any of the darkness and gravitas that balanced out the major Disney classics from that era.  Also, the writing just plain isn’t as good as most Disney movies.  Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, even Aladdin all had darker elements and excellent writing that allowed them to appeal much more broadly to both kids AND adults.  Beauty and the Beast was actually an Oscar nominee for Best Picture for crying out loud.  Like most of Sierra’s innovations-for-the-sake-of-profit-chasing (as opposed to the innovations that they made for the sake of making the actual games better,) the Disneyfication of KQ7 was just so damn ham-fisted, it reduced the quality of the whole product, in my opinion.

Lambonius - 09 January 2015 08:25 PM

Regarding Disney envy, I think the biggest problem with KQ7’s take on the Disney formula is that aside from the art style, it doesn’t REALLY follow the Disney formula.  It leans way too heavily on the cutesy/wacky/childish aspects of a cartoon world, without any of the darkness and gravitas that balanced out the major Disney classics from that era.  Also, the writing just plain isn’t as good as most Disney movies.

Good point, yeah, I agree. There’s some superficially dark elements like the guy wandering the desert and the weeping woman at the grave, and occasionally you help characters from mythology (Attis and Ceres) who have more serious problems than, say, the Falderal townsfolk, but I don’t recall much real emotional heft in the core story itself. Certainly nothing like either classic Disney (Snow White, Pinocchio, Bambi) that probably inspired aspects of some earlier KQs, or renaissance Disney (The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin) that inspired KQ7. And some of the KQ7 writing is indeed misguided. Though, to be fair, Disney at their best set a much higher bar than most games can meet.

fov - 09 January 2015 08:13 PM

EDIT: Found it! This was written before Phantasmagoria was developed, and goes into detail about why she likes stuff like smart cursors and that the audience is expanding to include “computer illiterate” people (hence the move to a simpler interface).

EDIT2: Also, some interesting stuff here about what was cut from KQ7’s original design, including two additional chapters and an ending sequence with Graham in it.

Great finds, thanks for sharing!

Excellent posts. I would just like to add that another problem was the characterization of the villain, or lack of it. Erupting the volcano and destroying everything for revenge is not is a bit hamfisted compared to the schemes in KQ6. Also not a very menacing presence if in the 1st encounter you scare her with a mouse… She was no Manannan!

fov - 09 January 2015 08:13 PM

This is true. Roberta actually played Monkey Island and wrote a memo about their UI and how Sierra’s UI could be adapted to something more like it. This was posted online at some point, maybe Ken’s SierraGamers site, but I can’t find it now. I’ll keep looking.

EDIT: Found it! This was written before Phantasmagoria was developed, and goes into detail about why she likes stuff like smart cursors and that the audience is expanding to include “computer illiterate” people (hence the move to a simpler interface).

EDIT2: Also, some interesting stuff here about what was cut from KQ7’s original design, including two additional chapters and an ending sequence with Graham in it.

Interesting reads! Roberta views on the competition and the birth of the simpified in interface in Sierra. One thing that they ended changing for whatever reason is that Roberta wanted to keep the look command, narration and not limiting responses to hotspots. KQ7 ended losing all that and were definitely needed. I felt narrator was a big loss for the series and according to that wiki it was cut to save space?
The cut parts of the game are also transparent in the final chapters of the game, but that’s usually how it goes in game development.

I arrived at the The Realm of the Gnomes in MoE. As a KQ-spinoff and actionRPG-adventure hybrid the game does some interesting things, kind of like a Demons Souls-lite with the dark setting, sense of isolation and clever puzzles.
The main problem is fighting with the controls and thchnical mess.