Adventure Gamers - Forums
You are here: Home → Forum Home → Gaming → Adventure → Thread
Post Marker Legend:
-
New posts -
No new posts
Currently online
Grim Fandango Remastered
Consoles are hit or miss for adventure games. The 3DO back in 1993 got quite a few and some even exclusive.
The advantage of a console is you get to sit on your couch with a controller and play the game - which is very nice.
The PS4 is a very nice system - however being very new the amount of adventure games it may or may not get has not been determined yet.
Consoles are not toys and my TV has a 3DO and a PS2 attached to it and each has an extensive collection of adventure games to play on them.
I enjoy playing adventure games on my Alienware M17 r4 and my Nintendo Switch OLED.
I really suggest trying GF with the mouse control patch. It really makes the game work very much like any othet point and click game out there.
I’m unclear if Lambonius had seen how the patch functioned at the time of his writing. However, I’m pretty sure that making Grim Fandango “work very much like any other point and click game out there” is what Lambonius has mixed feelings about. It makes GF play more conventionally and removes some of the touches that made it unique at the time.
I don’t think that’s a reason not to offer the mode, of course, but to that extent, I can understand where Lambonius is coming from.
I’m in the camp who found GF’s controls (especially Manny’s turning head and the inventory system) had a major negative impact on my enjoyment of the game. It was very hard to trust that you had found all the objects in the room and so you had to go over locations ultra carefully - a “fun” variation of a pixel search.
Sure, it’s hard to make games work well with organic interfaces—this is a major area of ongoing experimentation in video games. And there’s not really a single, right answer as different games and different players have different needs.
As I recall, the Escape from Monkey Island team concluded, for better or worse, that the head turning of Grim Fandango wasn’t enough, so in their own game (using the same engine), they added explicit on-screen text for whatever hotspot you were currently looking at. I remember disliking it at the time, but these days I’m more ambivalent and better appreciate the design challenge of balancing clarity with immersion.
I imagine for the GF remaster Double Fine may consider options like explicit on-screen text and/or a toggle to reveal the location of all hotspots, even for players using direct control, but I assume they wouldn’t force those features on people who prefer just Manny’s head turning with nothing else.
As for the inventory system, slow slow slow…
True, it’s a system that doesn’t scale well—it copes poorly with a large number of inventory objects. Even so, I liked it because there’s something appealing and slick about the close-up of Manny’s jacket as he pulls out objects from his pocket. It made me feel like James Bond. 
The game was designed from the ground up with direct control in mind. PnC completely undoes that.
But considering the amount of people who dislike them, I think it’s fair to say they weren’t well designed with direct control in mind.
Ok, that’s fair enough, I guess. GF’s interface was ahead of its time and I would argue a significant turning point in adventure game design. You’re right that it has its flaws but it really didn’t do too badly considering that games like Broken Sword 3, Heavy Rain, and Beyond: Two Souls were wrestling with similar problems years later. GF’s solutions were surprisingly elegant for 1998 and LucasArts’ first 3-D (well, 2.5-D) adventure game.
At the end of the day, though, everyone benefits from having interface options that work for them. How the player explores the world is definitely a part of the gameplay, I don’t mean to deny that. I think the impact that an interface change has on some of the exploratory and immersive/cinematic aspects of GF’s gameplay is what Lambonius is getting at. So to that extent, we’ll have subtly different experiences when using different interfaces. But ultimately, the most important thing in Grim Fandango are the story and puzzles, and those elements are worth letting people play how they wish.
I remember disliking it at the time, but these days I’m more ambivalent and better appreciate the design challenge of balancing clarity with immersion.
The thing is, there’s nothing immersive about clicking the same object 2-3 times, and getting the same response 2-3 times, because you want to make sure it’s still the same object being looked at, and not a different object. I can’t remember Escape from Monkey Island well enough - but I know I didn’t like it at all & the control system was an element of that 
. The text addition would be a slight improvement as far as I’m concerned, but I still don’t like it.
but I assume they wouldn’t force those features on people who prefer just Manny’s head turning with nothing else.
Yep, agreed, and that’s also how it should be.
Even so, I liked it because there’s something appealing and slick about the close-up of Manny’s jacket as he pulls out objects from his pocket. It made me feel like James Bond.
I know what you mean, but the disadvantage is too big for my taste. It should at least be possible to turn it off - once you’ve done it for a couple of hours of gameplay, the novelty’s warn off - for me at least.
At the end of the day, though, everyone benefits from having interface options that work for them. How the player explores the world is definitely a part of the gameplay, I don’t mean to deny that. I think the impact that an interface change has on some of the exploratory and immersive/cinematic aspects of GF’s gameplay is what Lambonius is getting at. So to that extent, we’ll have subtly different experiences when using different interfaces. But ultimately, the most important thing in Grim Fandango are the story and puzzles, and those elements are worth letting people play how they wish.
I agree the control mechanism has an influence on the overall experience, though hard to see it can/should be as big as the story or puzzles. But where, as with GF, you’ve got a control mechanism which is hated by a signifcant percentage of the players, I can’t understand the logic of saying “Tough. That’s the way the game is meant to be played.” That’s the problem I have with Lamb’s postings and why I agree 100% with what your sentence “everyone benefits from having interface options that work for them”.
I can’t believe i’m actually going to say this, but I agree with Lambonius.
Re-engineering this game back into a PnC is the equivalent of selling a new Ford with a horse attachment just incase the engine is too noisy.
Tighten up the direct controls, of course, but the game was perfect without P&C and the viewing angles and movement of the characters etc scream a requirement for direct control.
Just look at Tales of Monkey island to see how it doesn’t work.
Grim Fandango needs next to no work done to it, just up the graphics and tighten up the tank controls
An adventure game is nothing more than a good story set with engaging puzzles that fit seamlessly in with the story and the characters, and looks and sounds beautiful.
Roberta Williams
Oh and most people seem to forget that the inventory system can be skipped straight to a specific object by pressing the number keys when the interface is open.
An adventure game is nothing more than a good story set with engaging puzzles that fit seamlessly in with the story and the characters, and looks and sounds beautiful.
Roberta Williams
I can’t believe i’m actually going to say this, but I agree with Lambonius.
Re-engineering this game back into a PnC is the equivalent of selling a new Ford with a horse attachment just incase the engine is too noisy.
Tighten up the direct controls, of course, but the game was perfect without P&C and the viewing angles and movement of the characters etc scream a requirement for direct control.
Just look at Tales of Monkey island to see how it doesn’t work.
Grim Fandango needs next to no work done to it, just up the graphics and tighten up the tank controls
Far far from perfect, the choice should be there, like the switching of
old and new versions in new MonkeyIsland.
It should be suited to Sony platform first and their audience by giving more choice,
and PnC controls will go really well with PS4 touchpad.
Infact give both touchpad and analog mouse cursor movement. 
I loved the Grim controls. Genuinely never understood what the issues were, it felt like a genuine step towards what could be eventually achieved with a true 3D adventure game, but never came to fruition, later down the line.
Should work perfectly with a playstation control pad.
I loved the Grim controls. Genuinely never understood what the issues were, it felt like a genuine step towards what could be eventually achieved with a true 3D adventure game, but never came to fruition, later down the line.
Should work perfectly with a playstation control pad.
Tank controls were awesome. I finished RE3 last Fall in hard difficulty.
And i think GF tank controls were chore. There isnt any fun , the
puzzles that beg you to stand in the very right spot at very critical
angle and stuff like that is frustrating. That Scythe puzzle on the door.
I cannot imagine how the new userbase will take that.
They should streamline puzzles with PnC controls.
No way that would work with the PS4 touchpad. Too awkward to use as a method of game control.
More likely to use it to swipe through the inventory etc.
Analogue stick control is the only way to go.
An adventure game is nothing more than a good story set with engaging puzzles that fit seamlessly in with the story and the characters, and looks and sounds beautiful.
Roberta Williams
Re-engineering this game back into a PnC is the equivalent of selling a new Ford with a horse attachment just incase the engine is too noisy.
An awful lot of people seem to prefer horses to Fords 
but the game was perfect without P&C
Says you. I say the control method (on PC) was s**t. Doesn’t matter who’s right or wrong, just you want to stop me playing the game how I’d prefer to. Because…?
As I’ve already said, there are some direct controls which I find OK; though on a PC, I do think mouse control (and so PnC for adventures) works better than keyboard. Obviously it’s a different issue on a console.
Oh and most people seem to forget that the inventory system can be skipped straight to a specific object by pressing the number keys when the interface is open.
IF you remember what number every item in your inventory corresponds to. Personally I’ve got better things to allocate my remaining brain cells to deal with. Guess it’s an age thing
Now that I’m remembering better, I think everything about the controls and inventory was an absolute nightmare. It will almost certainly get a much needed revamp. I’ll be getting it for Vita and I hope it gets the walking dead-style touch controls. Including the option for original controls would be cool but I for one don’t want to play with them.
The mouse controls in GF mouse patch don’t work anything like in the Tales of Monkey Island mostly because GF is not a real 3D game, where as Tales is. Technically speaking GF has no real reason to use tank controls, as the game itself doesn’t navigate in real 3D environment, as only the characters are realtime 3D and the rest of is just a pre-rendered, flat, bitmap picture. Comparing a realtime 3D game to 2.5D game like GF is relatively pointless task.
The decision for GF to even use keyboard as the main control method always was very odd to me. It always felt that they took it from games like Alone in The Dark (another horrible implementation) or Resident Evil as a failed attempt stay in the race. The game itself doesn’t benefit in any way of the chosen control method, just like Espace From MI didn’t either, at least on PC. Perhaps they were even thinking of doing a console version of the game back then.
Schafer told the reason behind keyboard controls: the team wanted to make the experience more personal, where nothing distracts from the gameplay. Thus they turned the interface invisible and made Manny turn his head in the direction of interactive objects. Similar things happened to FPS and RPG genres ones they started playing with the “cinematic feel”: they started getting rid of stats, panels, portraits, etc. Personally I think the idea behind GF interface was great and it worked fine most of the time. It’s not perfect, but certainly not THAT bad. Escape from Monkey Island was far worse.
PC means personal computer
The mouse controls in GF mouse patch don’t work anything like in the Tales of Monkey Island mostly because GF is not a real 3D game, where as Tales is. Technically speaking GF has no real reason to use tank controls, as the game itself doesn’t navigate in real 3D environment, as only the characters are realtime 3D and the rest of is just a pre-rendered, flat, bitmap picture. Comparing a realtime 3D game to 2.5D game like GF is relatively pointless task.
It had as much reason to use Tank Controls as Resident Evil did.
Adventure Gamer Since 1992
Gim’s controls and interface never bothered me. As others have mentioned, it was made to enhance immersion. There were no distractions of text (except for dialogue trees) or icons to pull you out of the game world. Also, I think the tank controls, where you control the character’s every movement through the game, can enhanced the player’s attachment to Manny.
However, I can see that a lot of people had difficulty with the controls, so I’m sure Double Fine will provide a point-n-click option. That would also be a step towards making the game compatible for touch devices, as I’m sure Double Fine will want to port the game to iOS and Android, provided that their contract with Sony and Disney allow it.
Not much love for EMI here. One feature that they added to that game which I thought was an improvement was that you could press a button to make Guybrush automatically exit a scene. It really made moving the character from place to place a lot easier and faster as you didn’t need to drive the character to the doors and exit points. I think that would be a nice improvement to Grim’s tank controls.
You are here: Home → Forum Home → Gaming → Adventure → Thread
