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Ok,Imagine in 2 years ALL those Kickstarter-ed Projects Succeeded! ... then what..
I think the idea that the game is going to be better the more money it makes is a pretty naive fallacy.
The game is going to be what the developers were planning to make. If there are elements that will be added because more money was raised, those elements were almost certainly planned in advance.
I guarantee you that 9 times out of 10, any extra money from these funding campaigns is going towards either the physical rewards, taxes (did you know Kickstarter counts as taxable business income? That equals a massive fucking percentage just shipped right off to the IRS, in addition to Kickstarter’s cut), and then dead lastly, it MIGHT go towards actually paying the people developing it something a tiny bit closer to a decent wage. And even then, if anything, that extra bit that ends up in the developers’ pockets might get the game done just a tiny bit faster—but not necessarily better than it was initially planned to be. You have to remember, that unless the kickstarter was one of those that made hundreds of thousands of dollars or more, the people making it are still probably working long part-time hours, around their day jobs, to get you the game.
And let’s also not forget that all of this comes with absolutely no certainty of any kind of profitability. It’s a passion project, pure and simple, for most of us who have gone through the process.
With that said, I can see both sides of it. I certainly don’t think there is necessarily anything wrong with a small independent studio using Kickstarter more than once, for separate game projects. If the first one wasn’t a financial success, (fully funding a development studio would potentially take hundreds of thousands of sales, after all) but was well-enough received by fans that they would desire another game by that studio, why should fans feel duped or cheated if the studio decides to give another kickstarter a shot? After all, the market will decide if the studio should get another shot with crowd-funding. If the fans feel like it’s not worth it, or the studio is duping them, they won’t fund it a second time.
On the other hand, there are DEFINITELY bigger name developers that don’t need kickstarter that ARE abusing it. Penny Arcade’s infamous “ad free website” campaign was a complete rape of what kickstarters are supposed to be, for example.
Like Frogacuda i would hate to see the same company come back again and again and again ... and keep asking me for my money, and i would also hate to see KS as the “new normal” for financing AG.
The difference is that i also recognize that one kick might not be enough, and i am prepared to support a company 2 or perhaps 3 times, as long as i like the work they are doing.
I might even be prepared to back a company more times then that, if it turns out that the sales of AG simply isn’t high enough to drop the “training-wheels”, but then my pledges would most likely drop to the minimum pre-order amount.
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
Who are you to say whether or not anyone “needs” more money for their project?
By “need,” I’m merely speaking of whether or not the game would get made without the funding. If we look at a project like Shroud of the The Avatar, for example, the person running the campaign has tens of millions of disposable income, and has committed to spending many of those millions independent of the success of the Kickstarter. Even by said author’s own admission, the Kickstarter “isn’t about the money.” So to him, I say “fuck off.”
As I said earlier, you can never have too much money, since games can always be made bigger and more complex. Why should any developer settle for a certain low budget and never aim higher? Because Frogacuda determined they don’t need more?
In some of these cases, the amount of the Kickstarter is rather petty compared to the available funds for the project. I would consider that unnecessary.
And how do you know why people are backing projects?
I don’t, but I think as a broad generality, I’m pretty close.
It’s our money, and we will spend it as we like.
Or not as the case may be.
With regard to your offensive suggestion that project managers are “lying” about needing the money, you seem to to be insulting the intelligence of backers.
Quite openly, and I’m correct, at least in certain cases. Stupid people backed the second Pathfinder MMO Kickstarter, based on their pig-ignorant belief that the developer actually needed the money “to make the game faster” despite the fact that that makes no sense and they had publisher backing already.
Stupid people CAN be exploited for financial gain. I’m sorry if you find that notion insulting, but there are a lot of rich men that exist because of that truth.
if it turns out that the sales of AG simply isn’t high enough to drop the “training-wheels”
Being on the development side of things coming off a very successful (but still very small budget) Kickstarter campaign, I can definitely say that that’s the fear. But there is risk in every business venture, so if things end up working out that way, I suspect that the adventure-game-funding-via-kickstarter craze will die out within a few cycles.
The difference is that i also recognize that one kick might not be enough, and i am prepared to support a company 2 or perhaps 3 times, as long as i like the work they are doing.
I do recognize this as well, and that’s why I predicated my statement on the notion of need, whether it’s their first or their third go-round.
(did you know Kickstarter counts as taxable business income? That equals a massive fucking percentage just shipped right off to the IRS, in addition to Kickstarter’s cut)
You’re doing it wrong. Hire an accountant.
Business expenses are tax exempt. As long as you’re spending your Kickstarter money on the game development and you can document that, it’s exempt from taxation. Of course some (most) of that expense is payroll and people’s individual pay is subject to taxation, but that’s just life.
But if you’re paying double taxes on that shit, you need to go to H&R Block or something.
The difference is that i also recognize that one kick might not be enough, and i am prepared to support a company 2 or perhaps 3 times, as long as i like the work they are doing.
I do recognize this as well, and that’s why I predicated my statement on the notion of need, whether it’s their first or their third go-round.
I find myself pretty much in agreement with you guys, too. I’ve been on both the backing and developing end of a kickstarter, and when I DO back things, I’m really picky about it.
And oh man, Shroud of the Avatar. The only way I’d have backed that Kickstarter was if one of the rewards was getting to watch Lord British get kicked in the nuts.
I think the idea that the game is going to be better the more money it makes is a pretty naive fallacy.
The game is going to be what the developers were planning to make. If there are elements that will be added because more money was raised, those elements were almost certainly planned in advance.
If RTG claims they needed 800.000 to make Dreamfall Chapters, and that they can make an ever better and longer game for 1.5 mill, then who am I or for that matter you, to argue with that. And i also think it would be correct to assume that making en extra game in TLJ series of the same style and quality as DC would cost a similar amount.
This doesn’t mean that good games aren’t made on smaller budgets, as you said “The game is going to be what the developers were planning to make” - hopefully!
In my example i used one of the big projects Dreamfall Chapters, but if you replace it with a smaller project like Quest for Infamy, then the actual numbers might change, but the principle and the ratio between the numbers is more or less the same.
I guarantee you that 9 times out of 10, any extra money from these funding campaigns is going towards either the physical rewards, taxes (did you know Kickstarter counts as taxable business income? That equals a massive fucking percentage just shipped right off to the IRS, in addition to Kickstarter’s cut) ...
I somehow doubt that it will cost 85$ to create a physical copy of a game, even if it is in a collectors box, and that is the difference between the download and boxed copy of DC.
Of course the difference in price for the download and a physical copy of Quest for Infamy is only 25$, so a larger portion might be eaten by by the physical prices, but if not more money per pledge is made from the higher tiers, then something hasn’t been planned right imo.
As for Kickstarter counting as taxable business income then i was well aware of that. But unless the tax laws are completely different in the US compared to where i live, then the profit from selling the game will also be taxable. And again unless the laws are completely different, then i assume that the development costs are tax deductible. There might be some finer details as in what fiscal year the income is taxable and when the cost are deductible, but that is also the case of income from selling the game.
In my calculation I estimated that tax-wise it doesn’t matter much if the income is from sales or from Kickstarter, but please correct me if i am wrong.
And as for the Kickstarter, Amazon and PayPal cuts, then Steam and GOG etc. will also take their cut when the game is sold. Again I estimated that it would pretty much amount to the same percentage that will go to the developers.
The fact that not all the money from neither the kickstarter nor the sales, goes directly to the developer or to developing a new game, doesn’t really change anything. It just means that the actual amounts are lower, but the principle in my example and what i was trying to illustrate, should still be correct, and if anything it only amplifies my point.
With that said, I can see both sides of it. I certainly don’t think there is necessarily anything wrong with a small independent studio using Kickstarter more than once, for separate game projects. If the first one wasn’t a financial success, (fully funding a development studio would potentially take hundreds of thousands of sales, after all) but was well-enough received by fans that they would desire another game by that studio, why should fans feel duped or cheated if the studio decides to give another kickstarter a shot? After all, the market will decide if the studio should get another shot with crowd-funding. If the fans feel like it’s not worth it, or the studio is duping them, they won’t fund it a second time.
On the other hand, there are DEFINITELY bigger name developers that don’t need kickstarter that ARE abusing it. Penny Arcade’s infamous “ad free website” campaign was a complete rape of what kickstarters are supposed to be, for example.
And this is were we agree!
Though i estimate the amount of sales to fund a development studio to be less then hundreds of thousands of sales, but that depends on the size of the studio.
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
If RTG claims they needed 800.000 to make Dreamfall Chapters, and that they can make an ever better and longer game for 1.5 mill, then who am I or for that matter you, to argue with that.
As a side note, I think there is a bit of a problem with this idea of expanding the game based on the Kickstarter’s success. This idea that longer is better is bullshit. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t.
Tim Shafer started this whole idea of spending the full amount raised on the game’s budget, and everyone else followed suit. But it made sense for Double Fine, because they truly didn’t have a specific plan at that point. They designed every aspect of the game with that budget in mind. But if they already had a very specific idea of what they were doing, just expanding it until you run out of money isn’t good game design.
Doesn’t kickstarter say that all the money raised should be used for that project? I suppose they dont want people raising money and then using only half of it and keeping the rest as profits.
I’d also like developers to use the extra money to increase the polish of the existing game they had in mind rather than expanding the game. Most of the amounts raised are small compared with the budget they would have with a publisher. It would be better to use the excess to compensate the things they’ve cancelled due to budget, instead of making a longer game and then saying its reduced production quality because we had such a small budget.
Doesn’t kickstarter say that all the money raised should be used for that project? I suppose they dont want people raising money and then using only half of it and keeping the rest as profits.
No. It doesn’t even imply it. Double Fine started that voluntarily and it worked great so others have followed suit, but if you have a $200,000 game and you raise $1,000,000, there is nothing to stop you from making that game as planned and keeping the extra $800,000 or whatever is left over after reward costs.
I remember people got all pissed off at Anita Sarkeesian for taking trips and buying games with the money, but it’s her money. She can do whatever she wants with it as long as she delivers the promised rewards.
You think those Pebble Watch people were selling each unit at exactly what it cost to make? GTFO. They were making a profit and there’s no reason game developers can’t either.
Doesn’t kickstarter say that all the money raised should be used for that project?
No. It doesn’t even imply it. Double Fine started that and it worked great so others have followed suit, but if you have a $200,000 game and you raise $1,000,000, there is nothing to stop you from making that game and keeping the extra $800,000 or whatever is left over after reward costs.
I remember people got all pissed off at Anita Sarkeesian for taking trips and buying games with the money, but it’s her money. She can do whatever she wants with it as long as she delivers the promised rewards.
I guess that makes sense. There is no way anyone would know where exactly the money has been spent.
I guess that makes sense. There is no way anyone would know where exactly the money has been spent.
Well, there is sort of, since you have to account for these things on your taxes. But again, there’s nothing wrong with keeping the money legally or morally. It’s your prerogative.
Taxes are another reason people usually spend the money on development; money spent on development is tax exempt, but if you keep it you have to pay some pretty steep taxes on that money.
I agree with Frogacuda and Iznogood in this thread. Especially this:
My whole point here is, that Kickstarter is not only a way to finance development of a single game, but it is an opportunity to get something rolling, to quite literary Kickstart a studio
This is absolutely true, and it’s very important. It’s also why I don’t like how quickly adventure game fans have accepted KS as the “new normal.” I think one Kickstarter campaign is a big win for any company, and asking for a second seems greedy, especially if it’s not a complete last resort. Once you’ve been Kickstarted, I feel like it’s on you to keep it going.
That’s why it’s called “Kickstarter” and not “Kick-keep-it-going-er”... 
You are suggesting that backers are easily duped?
Of course they are. To quote H.L. Mencken: “No one in this world has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people.”
As a side note: I kinda like the idea of seeing no-budget developers go to Kickstarter to upgrade their own game with all the suggestions they’ve got from people who played the original. J.U.L.I.A. recently did this, and now Anna is getting this kind of treatment.
Feels like a good chance for them to show they’ve learned from past mistakes, and it’ll definitely benefit any future projects they have…
The truth can’t hurt you, it’s just like the dark: it scares you witless but in time you see things clear and stark. - Elvis Costello
Maybe this time I can be strong, but since I know who I am, I’m probably wrong. Maybe this time I can go far, but thinking about where I’ve been ain’t helping me start. - Michael Kiwanuka
Interesting, following all of this.
With regards going back to Kickstarter.
Personally I would not be upset if someone, let’s say Big Finish as an example, came back with a new Kickstarter after PF had been out for 12 months with this sort of proposal:
“Hi, PF was a great success and we’re now ready to do the next TM case as we said we wished to do. From the income we received in total from PF we have x amount to re-invest in the game but we need xy amount to complete it so we’re looking for y - x from this Kickstarter campaign to fund it properly so we can make the game that both we and you want”
Obviously, the more x is the less y is and, if we can extrapolate happily, the next game y would be even less and possibly 0. All depending on the quality of the game and its success of course.
Life is what it is.
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