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Return to Monkey island by Ron Gilbert : 19 september 2022
I see, fair do’s. That would indeed fall under the umbrella of ‘judging the book by its cover’. However, to be fair, it’s not as though one is duty bound to pay money for a product that they don’t like the look of. It’s also perfectly reasonable for people to state the reasons as to why they aren’t compelled to pay money to purchase a product, based upon their reactions to promotional material and other people’s reviews. Opinions are still valid, even without experiencing the product in its full, just as long as the person isn’t claiming that those opinions are a review of the final product itself.
Also, quite frankly, I don’t think that Jdawg445 will enjoy the game very much. He/she seems to have very similar reservations to the game that I did in the run up to its release and also seems to have the same distaste for meta narratives that I do. I suspect that Jdawg445 would likely be left feeling disappointed with the game, were they to play it. I know I was. It’s not as though the art style is magically different upon playing the game, or that the meta narrative ending ceases to be a typical meta narrative ending. That’s before getting into the litany of other issues with the game; it being unfinished; the puzzles being too easy/uninteresting/repetitive; LeChuck no longer being intimidating etc. (which seem to be aspects that even those who enjoyed the game overall admit were issues).
Im a guy and yes you are correct I had the ending spoiled to me from a friend who played it, what he described i disliked alot. so I still might give it a try but at a deep discount because then I won’t feel that bad either way, bc its just a few dollars.
And for the 30th time walas there’s nothing wrong with judging a book by its cover just like there’s nothing wrong with judging whether or not you find a movie interesting by the trailer that’s shown for it.
To be honest though and this ain’t just for this game but all games made by famous developers, I feel like they’re extended a courtesy that most other developers do not get. people will die on a stake to defend a subpar game because it was made by somebody that they use to like.
Look at the semi space quest game that just came out. People were defending the two guys from Andromeda by saying who cares if the game ever came out as long as the developers had fun, would they really be saying that about any other developers that was not the space Quest guys, probably not. Same thing with Chris Roberts and Star Citizen people really should be pitchforking that studio by now with how much money they’ve raised and nothing has actually came out yet. But he keeps getting passes bc he made Wing Commander. See i dont operate like that even though wing Commander is my favorite game franchise of all time. what he’s done with Star Citizen is disgraceful to me, and should be called out.
My sneaking suspicion and I could be wrong is if that return to Monkey Island was made by Joe Smith instead of Ron Gilbert, but everything else was exactly the same, art, story, puzzles, etc… the reviews for the game would not be near as positive as they are now and I’ll leave it at that.
To be honest though and this ain’t just for this game but all games made by famous developers, I feel like they’re extended a courtesy that most other developers do not get. people will die on a stake to defend a subpar game because it was made by somebody that they use to like.
Look at the semi space quest game that just came out. People were defending the two guys from Andromeda by saying who cares if the game ever came out as long as the developers had fun, would they really be saying that about any other developers that was not the space Quest guys, probably not. Same thing with Chris Roberts and Star Citizen people really should be pitchforking that studio by now with how much money they’ve raised and nothing has actually came out yet. But he keeps getting passes bc he made Wing Commander. See i dont operate like that even though wing Commander is my favorite game franchise of all time. what he’s done with Star Citizen is disgraceful to me, and should be called out.
My sneaking suspicion and I could be wrong is if that return to Monkey Island was made by Joe Smith instead of Ron Gilbert, but everything else was exactly the same, art, story, puzzles, etc… the reviews for the game would not be near as positive as they are now and I’ll leave it at that.
I 100% agree with all of this. It’s interesting to note that in the run up to release of the game, on the Monkey Island sub-reddit (itself a hive of fanboyism), there was an absolute crusade of hatred against anyone who dared to express any kind of dislike towards the art style or anyone who even entertained the mere possibility that the game may not be the second coming of Christ. Once the game came out, there was still a strong tide of anti-criticism patrolling from the majority, in regards to all aspects of the game.
However, it’s been extremely telling that as the days and weeks roll by, slowly but surely, an increasing amount of critical evaluation is taking place on that sub-reddit and now more and more people are calling out the game for being disappointing and/or having very real design issues. In fact, I’d now say that the staunch defenders are in the minority. A stark contrast to just a few weeks ago.
You see this sort of thing time and time again in fandom. I think the first time I was ever aware of it was with the release of The Phantom Menace. I’ve seen that very same ‘defensive denial slowly morphing into acceptance’ in effect many hundreds of times since. It’s all become very tiresome. I will never give a creative a free pass just because I’m a fan of their previous works. If something doesn’t work for me, then I’m going to be honest with myself and with others when evaluating that work and expressing my opinion upon it.
To be honest though and this ain’t just for this game but all games made by famous developers, I feel like they’re extended a courtesy that most other developers do not get. people will die on a stake to defend a subpar game because it was made by somebody that they use to like.
Look at the semi space quest game that just came out. People were defending the two guys from Andromeda by saying who cares if the game ever came out as long as the developers had fun, would they really be saying that about any other developers that was not the space Quest guys, probably not. Same thing with Chris Roberts and Star Citizen people really should be pitchforking that studio by now with how much money they’ve raised and nothing has actually came out yet. But he keeps getting passes bc he made Wing Commander. See i dont operate like that even though wing Commander is my favorite game franchise of all time. what he’s done with Star Citizen is disgraceful to me, and should be called out.
My sneaking suspicion and I could be wrong is if that return to Monkey Island was made by Joe Smith instead of Ron Gilbert, but everything else was exactly the same, art, story, puzzles, etc… the reviews for the game would not be near as positive as they are now and I’ll leave it at that.
I 100% agree with all of this. It’s interesting to note that in the run up to release of the game, on the Monkey Island sub-reddit (itself a hive of fanboyism), there was an absolute crusade of hatred against anyone who dared to express any kind of dislike towards the art style or anyone who even entertained the mere possibility that the game may not be the second coming of Christ. Once the game came out, there was still a strong tide of anti-criticism patrolling from the majority, in regards to all aspects of the game.
However, it’s been extremely telling that as the days and weeks roll by, slowly but surely, an increasing amount of critical evaluation is taking place on that sub-reddit and now more and more people are calling out the game for being disappointing and/or having very real design issues. In fact, I’d now say that the staunch defenders are in the minority. A stark contrast to just a few weeks ago.
You see this sort of thing time and time again in fandom. I think the first time I was ever aware of it was with the release of The Phantom Menace. I’ve seen that very same ‘defensive denial slowly morphing into acceptance’ in effect many hundreds of times since. It’s all become very tiresome. I will never give a creative a free pass just because I’m a fan of their previous works. If something doesn’t work for me, then I’m going to be honest with myself and with others when evaluating that work and expressing my opinion upon it.
yeah every developer and game gets my true opinion, whether it’s a big Studio, a famous developer, or a two man team from germany. If it’s good, it’s good and if not, it’s not and I don’t pretend or grade on a curve.
NOTE: I’m not going to spoiler tag the text in this post because I feel enough time has passed since the game’s release, that anyone reading this thread should fully expect spoilers within it by now. Regardless, if you don’t want to read anything in regards to the game’s ending, then stop reading this post now.
It’s nearly been three weeks now and the more I reflect upon this game, the less I like it. Just some thoughts I’ve been having regarding the ending and why I don’t think that it works from a narrative perspective (again; SPOILERS, obviously)...
As I’m concerned, it’s just plain poor narrative storytelling to not have a confrontation or resolution of any kind with LeChuck or the new Pirate Leaders. You don’t setup your main antagonists in a story and then just not have any kind of payoff for that whatsoever. It’s not clever or ingeniously subversive to have your main antagonists just exit the narrative, never to be seen again, without explanation of what happened to them, no less. It’s just poor and unsatisfying storytelling.
I could excuse, possibly even like, the meta ending to Return to Monkey Island, providing that there was also a confrontation and payoff between Guybrush and the new Pirate Leaders and LeChuck prior to that ending, but there isn’t, so it’s all just a big pile of nothing. Literally nothing in the game’s narrative was building to anything, so it makes the journey meaningless, despite Ron Gilbert’s in-game assurances that it was all about the journey (which is especially galling considering that I found said journey to be mediocre at best). There is literally no point to anything that happens in this game’s narrative and worse yet, is that Ron Gilbert tells his audience to finish the story for him.
“This happened, then that happened, oh and then this other thing happened and then all the major characters are set to confront each other and… and… blurgh, whatever. Figure your own ending out. I’m tired now and going to bed. The end.” ~ The worst bedtime story reader of all time
It’s like a stupid person’s idea of what constitutes a clever narrative twist. “Ha! You thought this story would have a point; the characters would have a narrative arc and there would be an actual ending. Psych! Fooled you. lolz”
At least with the ending to Monkey Island 2, Guybrush actually finds Big Whoop (a Disneyland E Ticket) and confronts LeChuck in battle (the two things which the entire narrative was building up to from the very start of the game. The meta ending to MI2 is an ending on top of an ending; kinda like a narrative coda. The ambiguous nature of the Big Whoop reveal (an amusement park) leaves plenty of thought provoking avenues of debate for players to chew over.
Whereas in Return to Monkey Island, there is no confrontation between Guybrush and the antagonists and whilst the The Secret is revealed, it’s an entirely unambiguous gag (a recycled gag from the first game, no less) and everything else just feels like a less impactful repeat of the coda from MI2 (I mean, was anyone seriously not expecting Guybrush to walk out into a modern setting?). Only in Return, it’s not a coda. It is the ending.
What are the questions players are left with at the end of MI2? “What is that amusement park?”, “Is Guybrush just a kid and LeChuck his Brother and they were pretending to be pirates this whole time?”, “Do Chuckie’s glowing eyes and Elaine’s post-credit comment indicate that the amusement park is all an illusion of LeChuck’s and if so, are he and Guybrush truly Brothers?”. Whether or not one liked that ending, it kept fan debate going for literally three decades.
What are the questions players are left with at the end of Return? “Um… so, that’s it?”, “The ending is whatever I want it to be because it’s all about the journey?”. It’s not interesting and it doesn’t inspire contemplation, nor provoke discussion. There’s nothing to figure out because Ron Gilbert straight up told players at the end of the game; “The meaning behind the game is whatever you want it to be. There is no correct or wrong answer”. How very dull and uninspiring. Fans debated the ending to MI2 because we all thought that there was a correct answer and that the man behind the curtain was teasing us with clear hints to the great unsolved mystery. That’s what made it interesting. Ron Gilbert made chumps out of us all, I guess. He pulled a J.J. Abrams on us.
NOTE: I’m not going to spoiler tag the text in this post because I feel enough time has passed since the game’s release, that anyone reading this thread should fully expect spoilers within it by now.
Maybe they should expect, but it should be pointed out that DRM-free release of the game has either been postponed or cancelled, so people waiting for that haven’t had even a theoretical chance of playing the game.
Maybe they are wise enough to avoid reading posts about the game, but going with the mentality “everyone who’s interested has played it by now” isn’t the correct assumption.
Speaking of that DRM-free release, some people on other forums found out that there was some feedback information about GOG release, but when people started asking for it, they didn’t release the game on GOG, but removed references to GOG.
I wonder what’s going on with that?
Maybe they are wise enough to avoid reading posts about the game, but going with the mentality “everyone who’s interested has played it by now” isn’t the correct assumption.
Hence why I still put two spoiler warnings at the top of my post in bold. I think that’s a fair balance/compromise between catering to people who want to avoid spoilers and making my post more easily readable for those who’ve already played the game or don’t care about spoilers (which I think it’s safe to assume is the vast majority at this point).
You didn’t open the box?
I wasn’t sure that I could so I’ve just reloaded a save, found the key & opened the box. I truly wish I hadn’t!
NOTE: I’m not going to spoiler tag the text in this post because I feel enough time has passed since the game’s release, that anyone reading this thread should fully expect spoilers within it by now. Regardless, if you don’t want to read anything in regards to the game’s ending, then stop reading this post now.
It’s nearly been three weeks now and the more I reflect upon this game, the less I like it. Just some thoughts I’ve been having regarding the ending and why I don’t think that it works from a narrative perspective (again; SPOILERS, obviously)...
As I’m concerned, it’s just plain poor narrative storytelling to not have a confrontation or resolution of any kind with LeChuck or the new Pirate Leaders. You don’t setup your main antagonists in a story and then just not have any kind of payoff for that whatsoever. It’s not clever or ingeniously subversive to have your main antagonists just exit the narrative, never to be seen again, without explanation of what happened to them, no less. It’s just poor and unsatisfying storytelling.
I could excuse, possibly even like, the meta ending to Return to Monkey Island, providing that there was also a confrontation and payoff between Guybrush and the new Pirate Leaders and LeChuck prior to that ending, but there isn’t, so it’s all just a big pile of nothing. Literally nothing in the game’s narrative was building to anything, so
One could argue that nothing builds up to anything in SOMI because Elaine didn’t need saving and confrontation with LeChuck is joke because it only takes place because Guybrush drove off monkeys who had root brew.Then again, one could argue that player either loves or don’t love this kind of comedy where everything turns out to be joke. (BTW, when i first played SOMI i hated way LeChcuck cartoonishly punches Guybrush around. Now i see, it was all part of how much of joke whole ending of that game was.)
One could argue that nothing builds up to anything in SOMI because Elaine didn’t need saving and confrontation with LeChuck is joke because it only takes place because Guybrush drove off monkeys who had root brew.Then again, one could argue that player either loves or don’t love this kind of comedy where everything turns out to be joke. (BTW, when i first played SOMI i hated way LeChcuck cartoonishly punches Guybrush around. Now i see, it was all part of how much of joke whole ending of that game was.)
That’s not comparable though. That Elaine had everything under control in the first place is a nifty subversion of the ‘damsel in distress’ trope and a decent gag. Regardless, the point is that despite Guybrush ruining Elaine’s best laid plans, he then proceeded to right that wrong, defeat LeChuck and save the day (despite nearly dooming everything). The player did confront LeChuck and the player did defeat him. At the end of the game, Elaine is safe, LeChuck is defeated and Guybrush is a pirate. It’s a complete payoff to everything that was setup at the beginning of the game. Whereas, there is no such confrontation with LeChuck in Return to Monkey Island. Not by Guybrush, nor by Elaine. It’s a plot thread which is left completely unresolved. As is any kind of resolution to the secondary antagonists; the new Pirate Leaders.
That’s not comparable though. That Elaine had everything under control in the first place is a nifty subversion of the ‘damsel in distress’ trope and a decent gag. Regardless, the point is that despite Guybrush ruining Elaine’s best laid plans, he then proceeded to right that wrong, defeat LeChuck and save the day (despite nearly dooming everything). The player did confront LeChuck and the player did defeat him. At the end of the game, Elaine is safe, LeChuck is defeated and Guybrush is a pirate. It’s a complete payoff to everything that was setup at the beginning of the game.
When i first played SOMI i never felt i was rewarded for completing three trials, instead i was sent off to unrelated quest. It seems i have become easier to please over years. (I wrote at first that i have mellowed but some people may have different opinion about that.)
When i first played SOMI i never felt i was rewarded for completing three trials, instead i was sent off to unrelated quest.
Supposing that LeChuck never kidnapped Elaine and therefore the Pirate Leaders never fled the Scumm Bar, what reward could the player reasonably expect upon reporting that they had completed the final trial? That the pirate leaders would state “Congratulations, Guybrush. You are now officially a pirate”?
It’s not as though the Pirate Leaders ever incentivized Guybrush with an offer of great riches upon completion of the three trials. Guybrush was driven by his own wont to become a pirate. It was a quest of status, not material gain. Therefore, once Guybrush completes that final trial, there’s nowhere else for the narrative to go, so it makes perfect sense that a major plot diversion occurs at that juncture, driving the narrative forward and providing the player with a new motivation.
Supposing that LeChuck never kidnapped Elaine and therefore the Pirate Leaders never fled the Scumm Bar, what reward could the player reasonably expect upon reporting that they had completed the final trial? That the pirate leaders would state “Congratulations, Guybrush. You are now officially a pirate”?
With big celebrationd it would have been proper payoff for trials. And after becoming pirate Guybrush could had goals that actual pirate has. It would be harder (or more darkly humorous)to make comedy about plundering ships and then sinking them, but game could have him comically fail at last moment. After all, whole save Elaine thing was turned to gag in end, why couldn’t more pirately goals be treated this way?
...after becoming pirate Guybrush could had goals that actual pirate has. It would be harder (or more darkly humorous)to make comedy about plundering ships and then sinking them…
That’s a good point and indeed, the game could have followed that course of events. However, surely at some point there would need to be a larger narrative. At some point there has to be a main antagonist and a main goal for Guybrush to achieve, beyond just “doing piratey things”. So eventually, you’d circle right back around to having the whole LeChuck/Elaine plot regardless (or an equivalent).
Therefore, what you’re essentially arguing for is a bridging section between the three trials and assembling a crew to set sail to Monkey Island and rescue Elaine/defeat LeChuck. I can only imagine that such a thing would resemble the ship combat section from The Curse of Monkey Island (‘Part III: Three Sheets to the Wind’) and to be honest, that section always felt superfluous to narrative requirements, as I suspect it would in The Secret of Monkey Island, should it be included there too.
There’s also the matter of budgetary restraints to consider; this was one of Lucasfilm Games’ early adventure titles and an unproven IP. I doubt that the developers had the means to make some incredibly epic adventure game, which lasted 30 hours or so. They kinda had to keep the narrative tight and focused. Though I can appreciate that behind the scenes factors ought not to dictate whether or not one finds the narrative/experience to be satisfying or not.
There’s also the matter of budgetary restraints to consider; this was one of Lucasfilm Games’ early adventure titles and an unproven IP. I doubt that the developers had the means to make some incredibly epic adventure game, which lasted 30 hours or so. They kinda had to keep the narrative tight and focused. Though I can appreciate that behind the scenes factors ought not to dictate whether or not one finds the narrative/experience to be satisfying or not.
Why do you think indie-developer Terrible Toybox has a better budget than AAA-developer Lucasfilm? Why don’t the same argument benefit them?
Message #43
Why do you think indie-developer Terrible Toybox has a better budget than AAA-developer Lucasfilm? Why don’t the same argument benefit them?
I can’t imagine they do have a higher budget. That’s not the point I was attempting to make.
Limited budget = One of my favourite games of all time (The Secret of Monkey Island).
Limited budget = One of the greatest disappointments I have ever encountered (Return to Monkey Island).
Some of the games which indie developers have come up with via Kickstarter are just incredible and they barely have a nickle to rub together. An artist uses limitations to their advantage. Some of the worst movies/games are those which had no limitations (hello, George Lucas!). So, budget really has nothing to do with anything, other than ‘too much money and nobody to tell you “no” stifles creativity’; if you can do literally anything, then it limits creative improvisation and creative improvisation has resulted in some of the greatest works of all time. You can use a lack of resources to your advantage.
Ultimately, I didn’t like Return to Monkey Island. It felt like a game fighting against its budget. A losing battle. It was badly designed. I love The Secret of Monkey Island. It is expertly designed. When they designed The Secret of Monkey Island, they lent into their budgetary restrictions. They made a masterpiece. With Return, they… well, I don’t know what happened but I do know that the final game feels unfinished and directionless. If I really wanted to be harsh, I would say that the final product is similar to a chimp throwing its feaces against a wall and seeing what sticks…
but I would never be that harsh 
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