Adventure Gamers - Forums

Fien - 03 November 2012 10:18 PM

Monolith - 03 November 2012 03:43 PM

It just sounds like a child not getting his iPhone 5 on his birthday. A bunch of whining. I’ve never seen one argument that made sense, except for games that don’t allow you to skip a very intrusive tutorial or a complex game doesn’t come with a hands on control map.

Monolith, my sweet, you’re flaming again.

Whining comes in bunches?

Whining, yes, but I still haven’t seen a respectable argument on non-intrusive tutorials.

Monolith, my sweet, learn to read.

Manuals are part of a gaming culture. I’ve read manuals not only to get hold of the interface, but to get to “know” the game better, to see glimpse of a humor from the developers, to enrich my knowledge of the game’s “lore”...

As for the in-game instructions which occur at the beginning, they don’t bother me much. 90% of strategy games have tutorial mission before the main campaign which is often needed to complete in order to proceed, and even if it’s not mandatory they’re often informative to even experienced players because strategy game interfaces tends to differ. But in an adventure they’re rehearsing the same thing all over again, so a good designer knows how to make it both helpful to newcomers and interesting for other players.

diego - 04 November 2012 06:43 AM

Manuals are part of a gaming culture. I’ve read manuals not only to get hold of the interface, but to get to “know” the game better, to see glimpse of a humor from the developers, to enrich my knowledge of the game’s “lore”...

I agree that manuals are great if they contain interesting (but non-essential) background info or just random nonsense. The booklet accompanying Zork: Nemesis that’s already been mentioned, the hilarious manual for Discworld Noir, the Grail Diary for Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, etc. (that last one was also used as an anti-piracy measure)

These I love, and I’d hate to see them go.

Of course, with digital downloads, they are bound to disappear, especially since reading a .pdf just isn’t the same. So I feel that stuff like this should be included in the game.
The Civilization games for instance (strategy, I know) have an in-game “Civilopedia” where you can read just about everything about the game. Even The Space Bar (our current community playthrough) has an in-game computer terminal where you can access a lot of background info on the planets and alien species in the game. That might be the future “solution”, imo.

What I don’t like is manuals that give you instructions on how to use the interface. That should be done in-game. Manuals (especially for adventure games - more “complex” games like most strategy and RPG-games are in a whole different ballpark) should NOT contain ANY info that’s essential to be able to play the game.
Basically this: “if you need to read a manual to be able to play the game, then the game is badly designed”.

I’m all for tutorials, even for simple games. Game designers should include them and either make them as non-intrusive as possible or (preferably) make them optional. But they should be included in ALL games…

Kurufinwe linked to a great article by Dave Grossman (of LucasArts and Telltale fame) about wrong assumptions made by game designers regarding tutorials for new players.
I strongly suggest you read that. Especially considering we’re in a niche genre that could really use an influx of new gamers - gamers that we shouldn’t immediately scare away by NOT including any sort of tutorial to ease them into both the game world and the game mechanics…

TimovieMan - 04 November 2012 07:50 AM

What I don’t like is manuals that give you instructions on how to use the interface.

Isn’t giving instructions the very essence of any manual? Wonderful extras like the Grail Diary, the Noctropolis and GK3 comics are goodies that don’t replace the manual. I agree that a PDF file may not be the same for everybody as a nice booklet. When I really love a game, I want a box and everything that comes with it. But that’s just personal preference and I have lots of downloads too. Downloads with PDF files have the future and I don’t see why PDF should disappear. Just look at all the stuff Kickstarter campaigns promised us!

I have no objection at all to *optional* in-game tutorials. But I do object to extras integrated in the game. Concept art etcetera would be impossible to integrate anyway. 

Basically this: “if you need to read a manual to be able to play the game, then the game is badly designed”.

I’m all for tutorials, even for simple games.

There’s no real difference between a tutorial and a manual that I can see. So why isn’t the game badly designed if you need a tutorial to be able to play the game?

Fien - 04 November 2012 09:23 AM

Downloads with PDF files have the future and I don’t see why PDF should disappear. Just look at all the stuff Kickstarter campaigns promised us!

Reading from a .pdf just isn’t fun, so it shouldn’t be a requirement. I agree that they won’t disappear (how else are they going to include documents in a download-only game?). I just don’t like to *have* to read them. Especially in advance.

Fien - 04 November 2012 09:23 AM

But I do object to extras integrated in the game. Concept art etcetera would be impossible to integrate anyway.

They don’t need to be integrated per se (like the terminal in The Space Bar). Concept art could always be put under an ‘Extra’ option in the game’s main menu, and be gradually expanded depending on your progress within the game (so you could for instance access ALL the available concept art or storyboards or whatnot AFTER completing the game). Sort of like a bonus to the game itself.
A LOT of games approach concept art this way, and there’s nothing wrong with that, imo.

Fien - 04 November 2012 09:23 AM

There’s no real difference between a tutorial and a manual that I can see. So why isn’t the game badly designed if you need a tutorial to be able to play the game?

Because everything you need to know is IN the game. Games fall under the “plug-and-play” category. They should work without instructions. Even if there’s a manual, you should be able to just start the game and play it, without reading anything.

If a game has a tutorial, that should give you all the info you need, while you’re already playing the game. If it’s in the manual, you need to read that first, before you can start the game. That means that you can only start the game at a later point. Try that approach with a 10-year old, I dare you.
It also means that the instructions won’t be as clear as they would be in-game.
Reading about the interface in a booklet is still not the same as having it displayed on-screen, at full size, in the actual environment that you’ll be playing. It’s just clearer in-game than in the manual.

TimovieMan - 04 November 2012 09:49 AM

Concept art could always be put under an ‘Extra’ option in the game’s main menu, and be gradually expanded depending on your progress within the game (so you could for instance access ALL the available concept art or storyboards or whatnot AFTER completing the game). Sort of like a bonus to the game itself.

Yes, but that’s not the same thing as IN the game. Extras like the lovely GK3 and Noctropolis comics might in some way be incorporated in the game I suppose (although I don’t see how), but I’d still want them as goodies. If they’re only accessible in the game, I’d be terribly disappointed. PDF or not, I really don’t understand your take on this.

Even if there’s a manual, you should be able to just start the game and play it, without reading anything.

For Pete’s sake, WHY? What’s wrong with learning how to play a particular game? Sometimes interface and gameplay are complicated, and there’s nothing wrong with that! Example: The Space Bar. Or Starship Titanic. Or Tex Murphy. No reason why every adventure game should be extremely simple.

If a game has a tutorial, that should give you all the info you need, while you’re already playing the game.

IMO, you’re stretching the definition of words like manual and tutorial. If a tutorial is *optional*, then it can NOT be part of the game. Deponia is a good example. Personally, I’d HATE it if all games forced me to sit through an in-game tutorial.

Fien - 04 November 2012 10:15 AM

Yes, but that’s not the same thing as IN the game. Extras like the lovely GK3 and Noctropolis comics might in some way be incorporated in the game I suppose (although I don’t see how), but I’d still want them as goodies. If they’re only accessible in the game, I’d be terribly disappointed. PDF or not, I really don’t understand your take on this.

If they’re in the game (whether in the actual game or as an option in the game’s menu), then they’re accessable to ALL who play the game.
If they’re only included in a boxset, then very few people will get to see them. I haven’t seen an adventure game boxset in stores in over a decade. I haven’t bought a boxset in years (except if it was of an older game). Boxsets are becoming a thing of the past, but that doesn’t mean that the goodies that came with them should.
Placing them as extra files in a download isn’t really a solution, imo. I don’t know about you, but I don’t tend to go through the files of a downloaded game to see whether or not they included goodies in a .pdf (or anything else). All bonus materials are better off within the game, where I at least won’t have to *search* for them.

But this discussion isn’t really about goodies (which are basically just extras that are only interesting to those who liked a particular game). Most mainstream gamers won’t care about the goodies, and if they do, they’d probably be more than happy to pay a little extra for them (to get a boxset if there is one, or to “pledge higher” if it’s a Kickstarter, for instance).

Fien - 04 November 2012 10:15 AM

For Pete’s sake, WHY? What’s wrong with learning how to play a particular game? Sometimes interface and gameplay are complicated, and there’s nothing wrong with that! Example: The Space Bar. Or Starship Titanic. Or Tex Murphy. No reason why every adventure game should be extremely simple.

And that’s exactly why there should be an in-game tutorial, so you could learn how to play the game. It’ll ALWAYS be easier to learn the gameplay mechanics from within the game, than from reading a manual…

Besides, The Space Bar is a prime example of a badly designed game…

Fien - 04 November 2012 10:15 AM

IMO, you’re stretching the definition of words like manual and tutorial. If a tutorial is *optional*, then it can NOT be part of the game. Deponia is a good example. Personally, I’d HATE it if all games forced me to sit through an in-game tutorial.

If it’s optional, then it can’t be an ESSENTIAL part of the game, but it can still be a part of the game itself.

KotOR 2 (yes, it’s an RPG) had a small mission you could play with a robot, which explained most of the gameplay mechanics. It was entirely optional because story-wise, what happened in this mission was explained in a single sentence in the intro movie. Playing it just gave you a tiny amount of extra background info, and of course explained the gameplay. Play it the first time, skip it all other times.
The first chapter/case in a Phoenix Wright game is always a part of the story. They hold your hand in it for almost everything you do in it, but they make it unobtrusive and fun. I don’t mind having to play through it every single time I want to replay the games.
The first four missions in L.A. Noire serve as tutorials. One is only a footchase and (easy) fight, one is a shootout, one serves as an exploration tutorial, and one is a small case where you use everything in your arsenal so far. Since it’s also the start of your character’s career, it doesn’t feel like a true tutorial…

There are plenty of games that do this. They start with a training session or an introductory chapter where they explain all the gameplay mechanics. Most of these you can skip, and if you can’t then they’re most likely not all that long or intrusive. And that’s how it should be.

Better that than not having a tutorial at all, imo.

Well, I’m sorry, but I still disagree with everything you’ve said. No point in discussing it further. And I still think you’re contradicting yourself.

Fien - 04 November 2012 06:07 AM

Monolith, my sweet, learn to read.

I’m sorry. I’ll shut up.

BUT I WON’T. I’ll just add to your discussion with Tim.

I absolutely loved the physical comic copies from Gabriel Knight 1 & 2. Comics and reading books just have a certain feel that you can’t capture on digital format. Like I said long ago, this is more of a personal psychological need than logical. Hell, I’ll stick with my physical comics any day.

I think there is something special when having physical items like ‘propaganda’ or ‘fictional magazines’ that add to the worth of the experience of physical purchases. Manuals were a necessity, but getting these extra pieces of fun like the ‘Popular Janitronics’ from Space Quest 6, just added so much to the experience that manuals don’t offer. Manuals just seem to pointless nowadays. Why do you guys think Collectors Editions do so well today? Because they offer a set of awesome shit. The manual is still a five page control map.

In the end, I guess we can agree that in-game interface instructions make more sense than lets say showing a screenshot of an interface in a book?

Space Quest 5 Galactic Inquierer

Zifnab - 04 November 2012 06:53 PM

For some people, yes. Not for me.  A manual has it all there in front of you - I look at the contents and pick out what I need, and I can do that while I’m playing. A 10 minute tutorial that I need to play through tells me “learn this, and don’t forget it!”. Good to have as an option but not attractive to me at all as an alternative to a manual.

The idea that you can read instructions, in-game or out-game, while you are playing is not something I agree with. If you are looking at instructions then what are you doing? Certainly not playing.

To me, in-game instructions actually make the game more complicated by adding content and/or interface or menu options to make room for those instructions. Manuals don’t do that. When I read them, what is on the screen is exactly what would be there when I am playing normally.

Have you heard of Hands on Training? Opinions or not. It has proven to be a better method than textbook training. In our case, in-game tutorials vs manuals. People want to get in and play the game, not read the manual before playing. I think we evolved past that, and it has shown by the sheer size of the gamers in the world.

Oscar - 04 November 2012 08:33 PM

A manual is only textbook training if you read it like a textbook. If you use it to guide you and help when you run into problems, it can be very practical.

The thing is, when I’m doing a tutorial or hands-on training or whatever you want to call it, I don’t feel like I am playing the game. Much like when as a child learning to use a hammer by your dad putting his hands over yours and controlling it while talking in your ear. That method doesn’t work for me, in fact it turns me off.

I can understand that. I think it all comes down to implementation really. I liked how Deponia did it, but I don’t think you can skip it? I think implementing an option to remove tutorials or popups should be that hard. Then again, not many games out today are all that non-linear so skipping the tutorial is nothing more than hiding the fact the game is on the rails. *cough*call of duty*cough*.