Adventure Gamers - Forums

The thing that bothers me is that there are people in this thread who still have the “2D is better than 3D for adventure games and 3D doesn’t look as good” mentality. I can understand, to an extent, having that attitude in 1999. But in 2012? Jesus Christ, have you ever looked at modern 3D games? The graphics quality of Heavy Rain (or any number of other titles) could easily support an old-school slow-paced adventure game where detail is important. Immersion is one of the most important things an adventure game needs to accomplish, and you’re clueless if you think that 3D can’t achieve (or exceed) that as much as a 2D game can.

orient - 11 June 2012 10:33 AM

DaveGilbert - 11 June 2012 07:54 AM

orient - 10 June 2012 07:20 AM

Games like Resonance and Blackwell Convergence are in a strange middle ground because the background art would look better at higher resolutions, but is downsized and appears pixelated because of engine restrictions. In these cases, I can understand why people would prefer the games in higher res, but to me they’re fine.

Nothing to really add to this discussion (I’m hardly unbiased!) but I wanted to correct a common misconception. The low-res artstyle has nothing to do with AGS engine restrictions. You can actually go very high-res in AGS if you choose. Most just choose not to.

Isn’t the max resolution of AGS 1024x768? I assume the artists still work at a higher resolution than what appears in the game, as that’s fairly common practice.

I don’t remember exactly what the max resolution is in AGS, but it’s probably something like that, yes. But while that’s not a very high resolution for a modern desktop, it’s plenty for a 2D game (and around the same as 720p HD video resolution, for comparison). When Skygoblin remade the 320x240 AGS adventure The Journey Down specifically in HD, they chose an only slightly higher widescreen resolution of 1280x720. To put it in perpective, 1024x768 has nearly 16 pixels for every one pixel in a 320x200 / 240 game like Gemini Rue, Resonance or the Blackwell titles.

Running at that resolution, you’re talking a completely different type of graphics that have nothing to do with pixel art any more. So the choice of art style is not dictated by the limitations of the engine.

The backgrounds in Gemini Rue were designed specifically for the low resolution. Whether they were initially drawn at a higher resolution and scaled down, that was always the target size, and the rescaling part of the technique; it’s by no means certain that a higher-resolution original would look as good, since the downsizing helps blend elements and e.g. turn simple lines drawn on top of a flat surface into convincing texture.

JuntMonkey - 11 June 2012 06:30 PM

The thing that bothers me is that there are people in this thread who still have the “2D is better than 3D for adventure games and 3D doesn’t look as good” mentality. I can understand, to an extent, having that attitude in 1999. But in 2012? Jesus Christ, have you ever looked at modern 3D games? The graphics quality of Heavy Rain (or any number of other titles) could easily support an old-school slow-paced adventure game where detail is important. Immersion is one of the most important things an adventure game needs to accomplish, and you’re clueless if you think that 3D can’t achieve (or exceed) that as much as a 2D game can.

So, according to you, only hi-tech 3D graphics can achieve a satisfying level of immersion to the player?

Heavy Rain is a great game, but playing Monkey Island 1 I felt much more immersed than many modern 3D adventures I’ve played recently. Also, as a similar example, with 2001 An Space Odyssey I felt much immersion than recent Hollywood Sci-fi mega productions with all the special effects and whistles and bells.

JuntMonkey - 11 June 2012 06:30 PM

The thing that bothers me is that there are people in this thread who still have the “2D is better than 3D for adventure games and 3D doesn’t look as good” mentality. I can understand, to an extent, having that attitude in 1999. But in 2012? Jesus Christ, have you ever looked at modern 3D games? The graphics quality of Heavy Rain (or any number of other titles) could easily support an old-school slow-paced adventure game where detail is important. Immersion is one of the most important things an adventure game needs to accomplish, and you’re clueless if you think that 3D can’t achieve (or exceed) that as much as a 2D game can.

The only reason there arent as many 3d games as 2d games in the adventure genre is because basically nobody gives a shit about adventure games in 2012 and making a 3d one is incredibly expensive compared to just having it look “retro” 2d. Yes you could make incredible 3d games with adventure elements but there’s just no market.

Also, don’t go thinking the 320x240 retro style is anything but a style decision for nostalgic value. It’s very easy to make 720p widescreen adventures, in fact most artwork is downscaled for modern games. Hell, it WAS downscaled artwork for the classics such as Monkey Island (except character animation which were actual pixel art). The only reason is budget: nobody can afford making a new engine so they use the few adventure engines out there that have severe limitations because they’re open source works.

bulak - 11 June 2012 07:42 PM

So, according to you, only hi-tech 3D graphics can achieve a satisfying level of immersion to the player?

Not what I said.

Adventure - 11 June 2012 08:28 PM

Also, don’t go thinking the 320x240 retro style is anything but a style decision for nostalgic value. It’s very easy to make 720p widescreen adventures, in fact most artwork is downscaled for modern games. Hell, it WAS downscaled artwork for the classics such as Monkey Island (except character animation which were actual pixel art). The only reason is budget: nobody can afford making a new engine so they use the few adventure engines out there that have severe limitations because they’re open source works.

We just covered this! No, it’s not because of the engine(s). AGS, Wintermute, Visionaire, SLUDGE; they all support (fairly) high-resolution games.

Also, the background graphics in Secret of Monkey Island were not downscaled, they were drawn at that resolution in DPaint. (In Monkey Island 2 they did use scanned crayon drawings and then edited them in DPaint. That’s not quite the same thing as downscaling, though.)

JuntMonkey - 11 June 2012 10:25 PM

bulak - 11 June 2012 07:42 PM

So, according to you, only hi-tech 3D graphics can achieve a satisfying level of immersion to the player?

Not what I said.

You didn’t explicitly said that. You implied your preference for Heavy Rain-like graphics arguing that with detail in graphics, comes immersion.

I just told you that an ultra-HD game can be ultra-shallow, and a 2D title, like Resonance(I’m predicting) or some classic, can be much more immersive.

Also, pixel art can be as detailed as hell. Just take a look at Metal Slug series.

I see a lot of hatred against pixel art. But it usually comes from people, you guess it, who were born after the 80s and already started gaming in 3D, which makes me kinda sick.

TheTwelve - 12 June 2012 03:14 AM

Hey! I just noticed that this thread is at least partially concerning my game, Resonance, and the choice of resolutions!  For me, it never was a choice, really. 

I wasn’t going to go 3d/2.5d because I didn’t know how to program it and didn’t know people who could make the models.  And bad 3d is so much worse than good 2d no matter what year it is!  I was familiar with AGS from making multiple freeware games in it, so when I set out to make this (way too) ambitious game, I decided to keep with what I know.  And with the time and monetary budget I was operating with (I have a wife, two kids, and a full-time job) low-res was the only way this game was going to get made!  So, in order to tell the story I wanted to tell, low-res was really my only option.

I think it looks gorgeous, but obviously: different strokes for different folks!  If you’re not a fan of anything with less than a certain resolution threshold, you won’t really be skipping a large number of games by avoiding the few low-res titles coming out each year.  But you might be missing out on some amazing stories, great characters, and fun puzzles!

TheTwelve - 12 June 2012 03:14 AM

Hey! I just noticed that this thread is at least partially concerning my game, Resonance, and the choice of resolutions!  For me, it never was a choice, really. 

I wasn’t going to go 3d/2.5d because I didn’t know how to program it and didn’t know people who could make the models.  And bad 3d is so much worse than good 2d no matter what year it is!  I was familiar with AGS from making multiple freeware games in it, so when I set out to make this (way too) ambitious game, I decided to keep with what I know.  And with the time and monetary budget I was operating with (I have a wife, two kids, and a full-time job) low-res was the only way this game was going to get made!  So, in order to tell the story I wanted to tell, low-res was really my only option.

I think it looks gorgeous, but obviously: different strokes for different folks!  If you’re not a fan of anything with less than a certain resolution threshold, you won’t really be skipping a large number of games by avoiding the few low-res titles coming out each year.  But you might be missing out on some amazing stories, great characters, and fun puzzles!

I pre-ordered your game. The first thing that most caught my eyes and made me want to buy it was exactly the beautifully detailed pixel art and fluid animations. I have high expectations on it, can’t you release it before 19th? 

After a brisk nap - 11 June 2012 07:25 PM

I don’t remember exactly what the max resolution is in AGS, but it’s probably something like that, yes. But while that’s not a very high resolution for a modern desktop, it’s plenty for a 2D game (and around the same as 720p HD video resolution, for comparison). When Skygoblin remade the 320x240 AGS adventure The Journey Down specifically in HD, they chose an only slightly higher widescreen resolution of 1280x720. To put it in perpective, 1024x768 has nearly 16 pixels for every one pixel in a 320x200 / 240 game like Gemini Rue, Resonance or the Blackwell titles.

Running at that resolution, you’re talking a completely different type of graphics that have nothing to do with pixel art any more. So the choice of art style is not dictated by the limitations of the engine.

The backgrounds in Gemini Rue were designed specifically for the low resolution. Whether they were initially drawn at a higher resolution and scaled down, that was always the target size, and the rescaling part of the technique; it’s by no means certain that a higher-resolution original would look as good, since the downsizing helps blend elements and e.g. turn simple lines drawn on top of a flat surface into convincing texture.

I suppose 1024x768 is sufficient for a “modern looking” 2D game, and I’m aware that downscaling 2D artwork is a technique used to “blend” and create detail. However, I stand by my main assertion, that games like Blackwell Convergence (I wouldn’t count Gemini Rue) are in a strange middle ground, as playing them in the default full-screen mode results in stretched background artwork that appears pixelated. I can understand why, in this particular situation, some people would prefer a higher resolution game. Not me—I don’t mind it. I’m just playing devil’s advocat.

After a brisk nap - 12 June 2012 02:51 AM

Adventure - 11 June 2012 08:28 PM

Also, don’t go thinking the 320x240 retro style is anything but a style decision for nostalgic value. It’s very easy to make 720p widescreen adventures, in fact most artwork is downscaled for modern games. Hell, it WAS downscaled artwork for the classics such as Monkey Island (except character animation which were actual pixel art). The only reason is budget: nobody can afford making a new engine so they use the few adventure engines out there that have severe limitations because they’re open source works.

We just covered this! No, it’s not because of the engine(s). AGS, Wintermute, Visionaire, SLUDGE; they all support (fairly) high-resolution games.

Also, the background graphics in Secret of Monkey Island were not downscaled, they were drawn at that resolution in DPaint. (In Monkey Island 2 they did use scanned crayon drawings and then edited them in DPaint. That’s not quite the same thing as downscaling, though.)

Yes, you are just repeating what I said with regards to higher resolution. MI2 art was paintings scanned then downscaled then worked on to remove aliasing from the downscaling process. Also, you are ignoring the fact that 1024x728 isnt by any means a modern resolution - it’s a 4:3 aspect ratio that’s not only not widescreen but also legacy from the 90s. AGS and Visionnaire don’t offer widescreen as default resolutions.