[Solid Snake]

Well I suggest you to learn the meaning of "irony" and "sarcasm".As you're already 30 and didn't learn the meaning of these words, I strongly suggest you to go back to school even if your brain is evidently incapable of understanding such things.Oh and for the heads up the world is not entirely made of America so the age of the "thing" you call "average gamer" varies from place to place,ok kiddo?

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by EvoG

*sigh*

Okay question time:

What does a truly next gen experience entail? Let me help you craft your answer a bit:

• We already have 1080p on the 360, so its not resolution...
  
• At the very MOST you have equal amounts of memory, with the difference being mainly the 360's unified 512megs vs. the PS3's split 256GDDR3 and 256XDR mem, so it will never be increased texture resolutions...
  
• Between the two CPU structures, the 360 (Triple Core PowerPC) exceeds in general processing over the six threads (3Corex2threadsPerCore) while the Cell(Single Core PowerPC + 6 SPE {8 SPE - 1 for Redundancy and - 1 for OS}) exceeds in math calculations(particle systems), but is unable to do much of anything else such as AI (remember Jades Assassins Creed comment about AI superior on the 360?) as an SPE doesn't have branch prediction(unresolved instruction execution), so while the PS3 has an advantage of being able to have 6 distinct "threads" (360 requires that an entire cpu be used despite having 2 separate threads) it isn't decidely 'better' in any significant way and ultimately is pretty much the same as the 360...so its not any great leaps in raw power like the 360 was over the first Xbox...
  
• HD Video during gameplay is an archaic throwback to the days of FMV in the early 90's when in-game graphics just weren't suitable for 'narrative' and storytelling, so it can't POSSIBLY be HD video FMV...

How is it a good thing that people(programmers) already pretty smart in their own right, have to "figure out" how to program this machine to do what is easily done on the 360?

• The PS2 had twice the performance of the Xbox, but it ended up 'under performing' in this capacity due to its complexity. 10 years people, and we've pretty much max'd the ratio of capability to technology. Its arguable that given a bit more memory, the PS2 could be capable of more, but we'll never know now...

Point is? Both machines are ultimately the same. 360 will have better AI while the PS3 will have better particle smoke and vertex processing...but who cares? I'm having a blast with the Wii and its lack of spectacular graphics is not affecting me one bit. How do you explain that? Is it perhaps that graphics do not make for better gameplay? Is it possible that 'next-gen' does NOT mean more polys, higher resolution textures, faster mpeg decompression and HD output?! How can this be! Is it POSSIBLE, that next-gen should gives us gameplay experiences we haven't had before? Dead Rising couldn't have been done on last gen consoles, so the experience of wading through hundreds of undead in my opinion is a great example of next-gen. Its easy to understand; you have greater power, and instead of simply delivering the same experience with greater fidelity, Capcom offered to derive gameplay from that writhing mass of undead...using that power to generate those hordes that are far more compelling than if we only had 10 zombies but with 2048x2048 textures multiplied by diffuse, spec, spec color, translucency and normals.

No the PS3 isn't going to OMG OvARWH3Lm you with next-gen goodness, auto-magically next Christmas or the year after that or the year after that. The concern we have is that because its the same as the 360 but more complicated to program for (can we HONESTLY doubt John Carmack on this?!?), that Sony's priorities are drastically skewed away from gaming. That as Trep put it, they're tossing all the eggs in one basket because of a desperate need for BluRay to succeed, but not as a truly beneficial medium for games delivery, but for LICENSING. Cell? Licensing for supercomputing in the science sector. This was less about games as much as a grab-all by Sony, and its obvious and its annoying.


Cheers

Im glad you are having fun playing your wii. Personally the next gen IS all about running 1080p on my LCD TV, and having an incredible immersing experience through stunning graphics and sound e.g gears of war... each to their own.

[CrimsonBlue]

There was a time when being people were satisfied with next-gen being better graphics and sound. Suddenly, Nintendo decides that's not next-gen anymore, and people listen to them like sheep. All respect to Nintendo for doing something new, but their idea of next gen isn't the final word, it's their opinion. Some agree, some disagree, but none of them are wrong.

[AFGNCAAP]

Solid Snake, SoccerDude, take it outside.

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

Solid Snake, SoccerDude, take it outside.

No need. I am done arguing with him.

[EvoG]

Originally Posted by Litrick

Im glad you are having fun playing your wii. Personally the next gen IS all about running 1080p on my LCD TV, and having an incredible immersing experience through stunning graphics and sound e.g gears of war... each to their own.

Okay fine...I covered that at the very begining of my post. Both the 360 AND the PS3 do 1080p on whichever displays you'd like...so using your wording...please tell me what is this truly next-gen experience I'm waiting for that only the PS3 can give me?

[CrimsonBlue]

The PS3 offers more games. Developers have been lazy up until the PS3 comes out, that's when they'll start developing proper next-gen games. The X360 has so far been receiving lazy PS2 ports, simply 'cause they don't believe in the X360 enough to invest too much time into it. That will change though, and once the PS3 is out (in all parts of the world), the next-gen will really kick into high-gear. The Xbox 360 suffers from what the Dreamcast suffered from. Pre-Playstation decease. Or if you want, "the great wait".

Of course, where Dreamcast failed, the X360 will prevail, or even succeed.

[Lucien21]

^You what

Gears of War
Oblivion
Ghost Recon
Dead Rising
Splinter Cell Double Agent
Rainbow Six Vegas
Kameo
PGR 3
Lost Planet
Viva Pinata
Bioshock
Mass Effect

Not one a Lazy PS2 port.

I don't think that stacks up.

The PS3 will have it's share of PS2 sequels and updates sports games the same as the 360.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

The PS3 offers more games.

They do? Can you link me to the list? The console just launched so I'd be surprised if there are more games compared to the other two consoles. Also important is how well it's supported by third party devs, especially since the X360 has a one year lead.

Developers have been lazy up until the PS3 comes out, that's when they'll start developing proper next-gen games. The X360 has so far been receiving lazy PS2 ports, simply 'cause they don't believe in the X360 enough to invest too much time into it. That will change though, and once the PS3 is out (in all parts of the world), the next-gen will really kick into high-gear. The Xbox 360 suffers from what the Dreamcast suffered from. Pre-Playstation decease. Or if you want, "the great wait".

Here's a quote from a developer who works on games for both PS3 and 360.

Playstation 3 vs. Xbox 360: A Developer's Perspective

The XBOX 360 has a huge head start here. 1 year is an eternity in gaming. Almost all multi-platform developers have made the XBOX 360 their primary platform due to timing of release-to-market, this means the games will look and perform better on the 360. The PS3 versions will be ports of the 360 versions. (The opposite was true for XBOX 1 vs. PS2). The XBOX 360 is also far faster to develop for due to better development tools (massively popular Visual Studio .NET vs. proprietary, buggy PS3 compiler and debugger), better documentation, and easier architecture (3 general purpose CPU’s vs. 8 specialized processors that require DMA). Timing has also caused all next-gen middleware developers to make XBOX 360 their primary platform, and they will ‘add ps3 support’ as needed. This support will probably be inferior to the XBOX 360’s due to manpower and more importantly, demand. It’s this catch-22 now that will continue to drive the 360 forward and hold PS3 back.

I think he has good points, so it'll be interesting to see how third party support can work the PS3's system to advantage. But in reality, because these devs are standing back with a wait-and-see approach, it'll cost Sony far more dearly financially because there is no initial substantial third party support. A lot of them migrated over to X360, the Wii, and handhelds. So we won't begin seeing a stream of non-first party games from Sony for a while.

Related news/articles:

Developers still waiting for keys to PS3
Developers are playing waiting game with PS3, says GDC organiser
Developers Holding Off On PS3 Projects
How Sony screwed up (an amusing laundry list, good for a laugh)

Of course, where Dreamcast failed, the X360 will prevail, or even succeed.

The Dreamcast wasn't exactly known for its online service or third party support or pro-active and inventive public relations.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

The PS3 offers more games. Developers have been lazy up until the PS3 comes out, that's when they'll start developing proper next-gen games. The X360 has so far been receiving lazy PS2 ports, simply 'cause they don't believe in the X360 enough to invest too much time into it. That will change though, and once the PS3 is out (in all parts of the world), the next-gen will really kick into high-gear. The Xbox 360 suffers from what the Dreamcast suffered from. Pre-Playstation decease. Or if you want, "the great wait".

Of course, where Dreamcast failed, the X360 will prevail, or even succeed.

Oh Christ, you don't actually believe in any of that nonsense, do you? You're pulling our legs, admit it.

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by EvoG

Okay fine...I covered that at the very begining of my post. Both the 360 AND the PS3 do 1080p on whichever displays you'd like...so using your wording...please tell me what is this truly next-gen experience I'm waiting for that only the PS3 can give me?

Well it all depends on your definition of next gen really doesnt it?
For me the next gen titles on ps3 and 360 provide me with graphics that arent fuzzy due to being displayed at such a low resolution. This allows me to output on my LCD at a high resolution, and enjoy the detail in the graphics. they also provide me with games that include a huge amount of depth in many areas like size, and physics, for example tony hawk project 8. The ps3 provides me with the capability to watch high definition blu ray movies, defineatly something i would term as next gen as far as a console is concerned. It also provides an overall gaming experience that is not possible on lesser hardware. e.g gears of war, or resistance fall of man. Also the internet play and ongoing upgrades/downloads you can get for your games (yes there was internet play with the last generation, but not to the extent being done now). These things to me are "truly next gen" but thats just my viewpoint. For you, im guessing a next gen experience is waving your arms around while playing a low definition title... fine, its all subjective.

[EvoG]

Originally Posted by Litrick

Well it all depends on your definition of next gen really doesnt it?
For me the next gen titles on ps3 and 360 provide me with graphics that arent fuzzy due to being displayed at such a low resolution. This allows me to output on my LCD at a high resolution, and enjoy the detail in the graphics. they also provide me with games that include a huge amount of depth in many areas like size, and physics, for example tony hawk project 8. The ps3 provides me with the capability to watch high definition blu ray movies, defineatly something i would term as next gen as far as a console is concerned. It also provides an overall gaming experience that is not possible on lesser hardware. e.g gears of war, or resistance fall of man. Also the internet play and ongoing upgrades/downloads you can get for your games (yes there was internet play with the last generation, but not to the extent being done now). These things to me are "truly next gen" but thats just my viewpoint. For you, im guessing a next gen experience is waving your arms around while playing a low definition title... fine, its all subjective.

Are you kidding me? What a way to twist the discussion...its what I THINK it is? No, you were the one exclaiming how the PS3, once the programmers "figure it out", is on the verge of delivering to us a "true next gen experience" over the 360 and I asked you simply HOW? I even outlined for you how it can't be the high resolution since BOTH do the same thing...its not the memory or the cpu power as they are BOTH the same...so if its an identical experience technologically...then tell me how YOU THINK Sony is going to shower us with a "true next gen experience" and what that experience is?

God forbid I mentioned the Wii as an offhand comment, but if you read my ENTIRE post, you'd understand we're discussing the 360 vs. the PS3. If you haven't gathered by now that I'm heavily in favor of my 360 whereas you're clearly in favor of the PS3, perhaps you should start over and reread what I wrote.

Me = 360 rocks for price point, performance and game quality(most important thing)...OH and btw I also love the Wii...big deal, not a part of this discussion.

You = PS3 OMG TRUE NEXT-GEN

So tell me what "true next gen" is to you OUTSIDE of what I already deemed an equal experience on BOTH machines...this means you have to demonstrate what the PS3 can do that the 360 CANNOT do. 360 has HD DVD, so BluRay doesn't count either...and as demonstrated by Resistance vs. Gears of War, the capacity is a non-issue as it wasn't even used.

[bysmitty]

Originally Posted by Litrick

Well it all depends on your definition of next gen really doesnt it?
For me the next gen titles on ps3 and 360 provide me with graphics that arent fuzzy due to being displayed at such a low resolution. This allows me to output on my LCD at a high resolution, and enjoy the detail in the graphics. they also provide me with games that include a huge amount of depth in many areas like size, and physics, for example tony hawk project 8. The ps3 provides me with the capability to watch high definition blu ray movies, defineatly something i would term as next gen as far as a console is concerned. It also provides an overall gaming experience that is not possible on lesser hardware. e.g gears of war, or resistance fall of man. Also the internet play and ongoing upgrades/downloads you can get for your games (yes there was internet play with the last generation, but not to the extent being done now). These things to me are "truly next gen" but thats just my viewpoint. For you, im guessing a next gen experience is waving your arms around while playing a low definition title... fine, its all subjective.

Sweet, so I've been playing 'next gen' for 10 years already on my PC. Besides the whole HD movie point that is, which makes absolutely no sense anyway. How having a movie player makes for a better gaming machine?

*sorry to partake in such a worthless discussion but I couldn't help myself.

...bysmitty

[CrimsonBlue]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

They do? Can you link me to the list? The console just launched so I'd be surprised if there are more games compared to the other two consoles. Also important is how well it's supported by third party devs, especially since the X360 has a one year lead.

Read between the lines. What I meant is once the PS3 is out, the amount of next-gen titles released will rise drastically, because it is the PS3 everyone is waiting for. And by everyone, I mean the commercial market. The production of next-gen titles will simply kick into high gear.

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Here's a quote from a developer who works on games for both PS3 and 360.

Playstation 3 vs. Xbox 360: A Developer's Perspective



I think he has good points, so it'll be interesting to see how third party support can work the PS3's system to advantage. But in reality, because these devs are standing back with a wait-and-see approach, it'll cost Sony far more dearly financially because there is no initial substantial third party support. A lot of them migrated over to X360, the Wii, and handhelds. So we won't begin seeing a stream of non-first party games from Sony for a while.

Related news/articles:

Developers still waiting for keys to PS3
Developers are playing waiting game with PS3, says GDC organiser
Developers Holding Off On PS3 Projects
How Sony screwed up (an amusing laundry list, good for a laugh)

Yes, perhaps the developers are on the fence right now, but the whole commercial world is waiting for the PS3. As soon as the sales kicks into high gear (it's not out in Europe yet, and the amount of available consoles are still pretty low), the developers will follow. When all three next-gen titles are out, the next-gen is suddenly current-gen and that's when the production of titles really starts kicking off.

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

The Dreamcast wasn't exactly known for its online service or third party support or pro-active and inventive public relations.

Uhm, that's why I said the X360 will prevail or succeed. Everybody waited for the PS2 to come out, and when finally did, the development of then next-gen titles started rising. There already was a huge market the developers decided to work on instead, prior to the PS2. It was the PS1. Just like the PS1 (and games) outsold the Dreamcast (and games), the PS2 outsells the X360 big time. History is repeating. Only this time, the outcome could become a photo-finish.

So, to sum up, it's not that the PS3 is "soooo gooood" or anything like that. I'm just basing this on facts that the world is waiting for the PS3, and when the PS3 is out, the real next-gen race will start. Up to now, we've only had a taste. There are only strong contenders this time around, so the next few years should be really interesting.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Litrick

Well it all depends on your definition of next gen really doesnt it?

For me the next gen titles on ps3 and 360 provide me....

But is your definition of next gen THE definition of next gen? It's rather confusing if everyone begins arbitrating on this. Is there no standard definition of what next gen is? I'd be more inclined to take the word of developers and other experts who work deep in the game industry ( not counting Kutaragi and those other corporate gits, natch), as they seem more authoratitive on the matter. After all, they're the ones who are actually working intimately with the consoles and the companies that produce them, right?

So I personally can't really define what next gen is supposed to be, but I can glean a few details about it based on the features of existing and upcoming games - A.I. (Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed), highly emotive characterizations (Heavy Rain, Mass Effect), pragmatically and aesthetically conceived graphics (Gears of War, Bioshock), and other things. But that, of course, is only based on what I see that previous consoles were not capable of.

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by EvoG

Are you kidding me? What a way to twist the discussion...its what I THINK it is? No, you were the one exclaiming how the PS3, once the programmers "figure it out", is on the verge of delivering to us a "true next gen experience" over the 360 and I asked you simply HOW? I even outlined for you how it can't be the high resolution since BOTH do the same thing...its not the memory or the cpu power as they are BOTH the same...so if its an identical experience technologically...then tell me how YOU THINK Sony is going to shower us with a "true next gen experience" and what that experience is?

God forbid I mentioned the Wii as an offhand comment, but if you read my ENTIRE post, you'd understand we're discussing the 360 vs. the PS3. If you haven't gathered by now that I'm heavily in favor of my 360 whereas you're clearly in favor of the PS3, perhaps you should start over and reread what I wrote.

Me = 360 rocks for price point, performance and game quality(most important thing)...OH and btw I also love the Wii...big deal, not a part of this discussion.

You = PS3 OMG TRUE NEXT-GEN

So tell me what "true next gen" is to you OUTSIDE of what I already deemed an equal experience on BOTH machines...this means you have to demonstrate what the PS3 can do that the 360 CANNOT do. 360 has HD DVD, so BluRay doesn't count either...and as demonstrated by Resistance vs. Gears of War, the capacity is a non-issue as it wasn't even used.

You're right i ignored what you had to say about 360 v ps3 and went straight for the wii comment... apologies.
To me 360 vs ps3 is kind of irrelevant as i beleive they are both able to provide great next gen experiences and i will own them both.
But yes, in a couple of years i beleive the games on ps3 will be spectacular, and the reason they will be truly next gen is because they just wont have been possible on previous gen, and provide the features i outlined in my opinion of "next gen" to a very high "true" level. And i beleive this is probably more possible on a platform capable of more storage and which has more CPU capability (like it or not it does no matter which way you try to slant it).

To me, the wii is highly highly dissapointing, it could have been so awesome... just imagine a 360 or ps3 with the wii-mote... Next gen games with the motion sensing remote.. would be so much nicer than last gen games with the motion sensing remote.
having said that, i will still buy one...

[Intrepid Homoludens]

It looks as if Nintendo, in their effort to ditch a head-to-head competition with the other two, offered something of a more 'disposable' console experience, at least initially. The Wii is the most toy-like of all three consoles, unapologetically so, for better and for worse. It's really the ultimate pick-up-and-play experience. I'm curious to see what kinds of game come beyond the introductory 'cutsie' sports and arcade titles, which I personally don't care for. If they start offering some truly deeper gaming experiences where the real nuances of the Wiimote are exploited I could easily be convinced and make the Wii my second console.

[CrimsonBlue]

I fear though, that it's not just pick up and play. I fear it'll become the ultimate pick-up-and-play-and-forget. I fear it won't offer much longevity. A bit like the light-gun games. They're fun for a few rounds, but then you put it down and let it gather dust for many months, until you decide to have a go at it again. Only to put it down again after a few rounds, and the cycle continues.

Also, I hope that Nintendo will have the balls to really support their console this time. I'm actually insulted that still haven't released Twilight Princess, and that it first gets released on the Wii now. I kept my 'Cube just for this game, and now I find out I really didn't have to. And they even dare to have two different versions, where the only real difference is the controls and the Wii version having 16.

They need to stop screwing their customers again and again, and instead of punish their loyal fans, they need to embrace them. I hope the Wii doesn't only get two or three good years and then fade away, just like two of its predecessors (N64 and GC).

[Intrepid Homoludens]

They need a huge diversity of games, i.e. support for third party devs. God knows Sony hasn't done that to a significant degree lately, and Microsoft has been going out of their way to support them so that they're leading this time around.

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by bysmitty

Sweet, so I've been playing 'next gen' for 10 years already on my PC. Besides the whole HD movie point that is, which makes absolutely no sense anyway. How having a movie player makes for a better gaming machine?

*sorry to partake in such a worthless discussion but I couldn't help myself.

...bysmitty

No you have not been playing next generation console games on your PC.. you have been playing pc games at a high resolution...

There are a lot of things which constitute next generation, the primary being IT IS A DIFFERENT GENERATION OF CONSOLE! - this generally has meant in the past, that the games can have better graphics, better sound, be larger, and more complex (no longer the case because of the wii).... if a game satisfies any or all of these categories in a manner that could not have been done on the previous generation, then it is considered next gen. So in the case of consoles, yes, high definition is next gen.

As for having a blu ray player with a device that outputs high definition, which will allow you to watch high definition movies, and allow for much larger game content and no disc swapping... i personally dont see that as a negative, especially when you consider a blu ray player by itself if much more expensive than the ps3